The Postman delivers.

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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Capt. Link.
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The Postman delivers.

Post by Capt. Link. »

The door is open for a old school build in .45acp on a favorite buzz gun the Ingram M-10. A suppressor with the basic dimension of 2.00 x 12.00" allows for just about any design.

Postmen reference. https://youtu.be/udQM_DbATFk

I'm open to ideas, looks are important as is performance.

-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
Historian
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by Historian »

Good Captain, a starting candidate comes to mind for your .45 ACP project.

Long ago, OCONUS, in a far distant land with boundless verdure, on
a bolt action rifle, a 'proto-can' test batch received from a contractor*,
tested by a distinguished descendent Odin.

Its approximate dimensions were if memory serves :

Length: 8" -9"
-I.D. 1.75"
-Bored out from solid Al round stock
-One steel end-cap in front ... close fit
-Baffles (bronze 'fender washers'), spacers bronze .. guessing about 9 (?)
-Solid rear threaded for barrel.


That 'short' length in .45 ACP nearly as quiet as the estimable
PTK '.. it ain't a B-B gun.."


Best, my friend.




* In Parker's Tome an indirect mention was made
about a 'similar' Federal contractor's delivery.
TheATeam76
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by TheATeam76 »

Funny you mention. Been working on this bad boy:

Image

My design priorities are as follows:

1. Look like a pseudo Scionics style 2-stage suppressor.
2. Tough as nails construction (it's all 4130).
3. Optimized for subsonic suppression, but able to easily withstand supers with no issues.
4. As close to weight of original Scionics as possible (I'm slightly heavier, but the balance point is right where the OD steps down).

It is essentially "tubeless", except for the outer tube for the first "stage". The volume where the larger "stage" was on the original, I am planning to fill it with ceramic fiber insulation, to prevent me from burning my hand. It's not actually part of the working volume of the suppressor.

I also scaled the size down slightly from the original Scionics. This is because it's actually for an MPA930SST (the Masterpiece Mini 9), so I wanted to both keep the appearance proportionate and avoid obstructing the iron sights.

Should be getting the form 1 back soon. I hope.
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whiterussian1974
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by whiterussian1974 »

I think that ATeam76's design is very nice. That gets my vote for your build Capt.
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The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by Capt. Link. »

TheATeam76 the iconic two stage Sionic suppressor is a good design but dropping the first stage function ? ?
Image

A coaxial build keeps nagging at me. Almost any baffle will work in that design plus there is room for a thermal diffuser. A carbon steel tube will blue nicely to match the host. I also plan on using button head screws for decoration. Just need some asbestos rope to finalize that vintage look.

MK9A One badass Coaxial
Image

Button head screws-found this but better pics exist.
Image

-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
TheATeam76
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by TheATeam76 »

Capt. Link. wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:25 pm TheATeam76 the iconic two stage Sionic suppressor is a good design but dropping the first stage function ? ?
Right. The first stage isn't going to be a part of the suppressor's working volume. I plan to fill the space with ceramic fiber insulation, so that the tube can be safely held onto when the can heats up:

https://www.mcmaster.com/insulation/mat ... mic-fiber/

It's good for .48 BTUs at 800°F, so that should make a difference.

I'm open to suggestions for improvements to the design, though. Most of you will probably have more experience than me. I'm still undecided as to the best baffle geometry and baffle clipping strategy, for one.
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by Capt. Link. »

TheATeam76 wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:06 pm
Capt. Link. wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:25 pm TheATeam76 the iconic two stage Sionic suppressor is a good design but dropping the first stage function ? ?
Right. The first stage isn't going to be a part of the suppressor's working volume. I plan to fill the space with ceramic fiber insulation, so that the tube can be safely held onto when the can heats up:

https://www.mcmaster.com/insulation/mat ... mic-fiber/

It's good for .48 BTUs at 800°F, so that should make a difference.

I'm open to suggestions for improvements to the design, though. Most of you will probably have more experience than me. I'm still undecided as to the best baffle geometry and baffle clipping strategy, for one.
Fill the whole thing with K baffles or close spaced cones and open up as much volume possible. Insulation tubes or rope windings plus gloves is a must.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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whiterussian1974
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by whiterussian1974 »

Would venting the blast chamber into the coax and rough-threading the inside of the coax tube a la OSS to create major surface area (heatsink) and a tortuous winding path for the gas to travel, and then reverse direction once the boreline clears and the cones are purging their volume?
The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
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TheATeam76
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by TheATeam76 »

Capt. Link. wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:10 pm Fill the whole thing with K baffles or close spaced cones and open up as much volume possible. Insulation tubes or rope windings plus gloves is a must.
First off, sorry for hijacking your thread. My build seemed relevant to the topic at hand, so I thought I'd bring it up. I hope you don't mind.

Are you sure that Ks would be a good way to go? A lot of guys on my .32ACP form1 thread from a while back seemed to insist from their experience that cones worked better. Even for a subsonic pistol round. I went with radials on this design because I see some people saying they work better than cones with low pressure subsonic cartridges. This suppressor will mainly see 147gr 9mm. I may occasionally shoot 124/115gr through it just based on availability, but that's not what I want to optimize it for.

When you say "close spaced cones", how close? Are we talking to the point that the bullet is already entering the next cone before it leaves the previous cone? Or should I leave at least a bullet length between the cones?

Moreover, my mass analysis suggests that my welded tubeless design above actually weighs significantly less than an outer tube stuffed with baffles. Even if all but the first two or three baffles are aluminum. Unless you know of any tricks to save weight?

Also, what do you mean by "insulation tubes" and "rope windings"? I'm assuming you mean putting a tube of insulating material around the suppressor, or wrapping the tube in an insulating fiber material?

Again, I could be wrong on all of this. Form 1 is submitted, but I'm only locked in to OAL at this point, so I'm open to making changes.

whiterussian1974 wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:18 am Would venting the blast chamber into the coax and rough-threading the inside of the coax tube a la OSS to create major surface area (heatsink) and a tortuous winding path for the gas to travel, and then reverse direction once the boreline clears and the cones are purging their volume?
I thought coaxial cans were primarily suitable for rifles? Would there really be benefit to a coaxial chamber in a pistol caliber suppressor whose main chamber is already darn near 1.625" ID?
Historian
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by Historian »

TheATeam76, welcome to this den of INEQUALITY. :)

My compliments on your knowledge and your sharing it,

From past 'readings' and for what it is worth I too would give the edge to
radials over K's in this type of build. Some old patents
built on this.

A past builder added varying the spacings
diminishing their distances as they approached the front -
image was that of reveres trumpet.
Unfortunately there was no follow up on actual measure so
not sure it was effective or a waste.

Best
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by Capt. Link. »

TheATeam76 wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:04 am
Capt. Link. wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:10 pm Fill the whole thing with K baffles or close spaced cones and open up as much volume possible. Insulation tubes or rope windings plus gloves is a must.
First off, sorry for hijacking your thread. My build seemed relevant to the topic at hand, so I thought I'd bring it up. I hope you don't mind.

Are you sure that Ks would be a good way to go? A lot of guys on my .32ACP form1 thread from a while back seemed to insist from their experience that cones worked better. Even for a subsonic pistol round. I went with radials on this design because I see some people saying they work better than cones with low pressure subsonic cartridges. This suppressor will mainly see 147gr 9mm. I may occasionally shoot 124/115gr through it just based on availability, but that's not what I want to optimize it for.

When you say "close spaced cones", how close? Are we talking to the point that the bullet is already entering the next cone before it leaves the previous cone? Or should I leave at least a bullet length between the cones?

Moreover, my mass analysis suggests that my welded tubeless design above actually weighs significantly less than an outer tube stuffed with baffles. Even if all but the first two or three baffles are aluminum. Unless you know of any tricks to save weight?

Also, what do you mean by I'm assuming you mean putting a tube of insulating material around the suppressor, or wrapping the tube in an insulating fiber material?

Again, I could be wrong on all of this. Form 1 is submitted, but I'm only locked in to OAL at this point, so I'm open to making changes.

whiterussian1974 wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:18 am Would venting the blast chamber into the coax and rough-threading the inside of the coax tube a la OSS to create major surface area (heatsink) and a tortuous winding path for the gas to travel, and then reverse direction once the boreline clears and the cones are purging their volume?
I thought coaxial cans were primarily suitable for rifles? Would there really be benefit to a coaxial chamber in a pistol caliber suppressor whose main chamber is already darn near 1.625" ID?

I can deal with hijacking just not another coup d'etat.
Cone baffles are superior in rifles as they simply handle the pressure without deformation and still allow light construction over other baffles. You need more cones than K's to net the same suppression in every case. This applies to subsonic in particular. Without a first stage diffuser in your build K baffles will hold gas longer in their coaxial space's aiding cooling.

Close spacing is a reference to the small end is inside of the large end of the next cone inline.

"insulation tubes" and "rope windings" to keep your hands cool.

Radials or frustoconical: Little hard data available on these. I've seen hybrid designs that appear effective in some commercial builds though baffle count is high. I'm not knocking them nor am I promoting them

whiterussian1974 :
You have me a little confused about venting gas into the coax ? It all gets dumped to the next baffle in line.
The threading of tubes internally to gain surface area was pioneered by Mitch Werbel (MAC) and John Leasure (PAI). This also permits screwing baffles in place without spacers plus you can change their position in the stack. The coaxial suppressor was developed for sub machine guns but can be used on any caliber if weight is not a issue.
I normally cut a internal thread end to end. This keeps the weight down, saves the weight of spacers, allows changing the baffles spacing plus it supports the edge of baffles from gas pressure deforming them. The irregular surface and area gained I'm sure has positive effects as well.

-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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whiterussian1974
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by whiterussian1974 »

Capt. Link. wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:05 pm whiterussian1974 :
You have me a little confused about venting gas into the coax ? It all gets dumped to the next baffle in line.
The threading of tubes internally to gain surface area was pioneered by Mitch Werbel (MAC) and John Leasure (PAI). This also permits screwing baffles in place without spacers plus you can change their position in the stack. The coaxial suppressor was developed for sub machine guns but can be used on any caliber if weight is not a issue.
I normally cut a internal thread end to end. This keeps the weight down, saves the weight of spacers, allows changing the baffles spacing plus it supports the edge of baffles from gas pressure deforming them. The irregular surface and area gained I'm sure has positive effects as well.

-CL
The blast chamber is contained, and not vented into a coax volume. You mention this as a 'first stage diffusor' in your reply to OP.

He doesn't vent the gas, and uses the 1st stage to thermally insulate the outer tube to hold with his hand. You mention rope windings and gloves.

Should he use Ks instead of his cup design? If he sticks with cones, should he vent the blast chamber into a coaxial volume within the 1st stage housing?
Image
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The Death of One is a Tragedy, a million only a statistic.-Stalin
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by Capt. Link. »

The blast chamber is contained, and not vented into a coax volume. You mention this as a 'first stage diffusor' in your reply to OP.

He doesn't vent the gas, and uses the 1st stage to thermally insulate the outer tube to hold with his hand. You mention rope windings and gloves.

Should he use Ks instead of his cup design? If he sticks with cones, should he vent the blast chamber into a coaxial volume within the 1st stage housing?
Looking at his design there is no coax volume or use of a first stage. Its a straight suppressor with a insulated hand guard. (A Sionic/MAC look alike two stage suppressor with a faux first stage)
Image

Without a first stage diffuser K baffles will work better than a cone.
He could build the first stage and that would be in communication with the blast chamber. Calling that space coaxial is a bit of a stretch on the definition.
-CL
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by 3strucking »

This is just my opinion. If you are going to include the Fake first stage, you might as well use it for that purpose. You are adding the exrta weight so put it to use.
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by Capt. Link. »

3strucking wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:39 am This is just my opinion. If you are going to include the Fake first stage, you might as well use it for that purpose. You are adding the exrta weight so put it to use.
Agreed +1
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TheATeam76
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by TheATeam76 »

I'll draft a couple more designs based on y'alls suggestions, and see what I can come up with.
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Re: The Postman delivers.

Post by TheATeam76 »

I just got my form 1 back a couple days ago. A combination of impatience, excitement, and an opportune bit of free time on the lathe at work, and also wanting to know how effective my own original design would work, has led me to proceed with making the can as I originally designed it. Radial baffles and insulated handguard, etc. All the machining is done. All that's left is welding it together, which will take place over the next few days.

Image

I appreciate everybody's input. I certainly value all of your suggestions, but since by my research it all seems to be art more so than science, I figured there's at least a decent chance my design will also work extremely well. Tax stamps and materials are cheap. Experience gained is priceless.

I'll tell you what though, the insulation I got is definitely legit. I started welding a bit of the suppressor this evening. Immediately after finishing a weld I put the insulation directly over the hot weld bead and pressed my bare finger on it. It took five full seconds before enough heat got through for it to be too hot to touch.
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