5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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Wicked
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Wicked » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:09 am

este wrote:I can't figure out what you used the water jet for. I think it should be obvious, but I'm not getting it.
The above pic is of the bore being cut to finished size in a wire EDM. Yes, it's a Mits wire. The water stream you see is only used to assist in getting the wire threaded through the part.

A water jet cutter was used to cut out the round blanks from sheet stock before the baffles were lathe spun/formed.
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by este » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:14 pm

JWebb wrote:Where the water jet factors in, I have no clue, maybe they blanked out discs on it
Right, that's what I'm asking.

Ah, used to cut the blanks. Got it.

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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by este » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:10 pm

Wicked wrote:
este wrote:I can't figure out what you used the water jet for. I think it should be obvious, but I'm not getting it.
The above pic is of the bore being cut to finished size in a wire EDM. Yes, it's a Mits wire. The water stream you see is only used to assist in getting the wire threaded through the part.

A water jet cutter was used to cut out the round blanks from sheet stock before the baffles were lathe spun/formed.
So... a question for you then.... Do you feel like it was a worth while project? Aside from the learning and doing and etc. For the cost of EDM, waterjet, spinning, and robotic welding, materials and labor you must be in at LEAST the cost of an M4-2000, except without the warranty and plus 4-6oz or so.

I'm not being condescending, you did amazing work! It just seems to me that you could have saved yourself some time and money. You did get a larger diameter than 1.5" which seems rare in 223 cans so there is that, but I wonder if it's any quieter than a can you could have bought?

What I'm getting at, is I have been through the Form1 dance twice and it was NOT worth it one time, and just marginally worth it the other time. What I have decided is that IF what I want can not be bought and IF I absolutely can not change my requirements to line up with something that can, only THEN I will attempt to build. It's only worth it to build something that can already be bought if you are going to build 10 (imo). But I am curious to hear your views on it.

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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by delta9mda » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:18 pm

i may be wrong but i think the op works at some form of shop/ manufacturing facility.
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by rcrdps » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:03 am

I'm not who the question is aimed at, but my opinion: Some of us just don't buy stuff if we think we can make it. Cost is not the issue. Performance is only part of the issue. The issue is: "The way to a man's heart is not food. It's power tools and self reliance!!!"

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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by JWebb » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:37 am

rcrdps wrote:I'm not who the question is aimed at, but my opinion: Some of us just don't buy stuff if we think we can make it. Cost is not the issue. Performance is only part of the issue. The issue is: "The way to a man's heart is not food. It's power tools and self reliance!!!"

:D

Gene
Sadly, my bank account agrees with this. I can't count the times I've spent more building something to my liking than just buying something that appeased me. I can only think of a couple of regrets though. Building something is always more fun, and when it works, it's an incredible feeling of accomplishment.

Having a machine shop at your disposal just makes the projects more fun. If I didn't have that, I'd probably not be ready to send in some Form 1's though.

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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Wicked » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:07 am

Here was my take on this project:

I am a toolmaker and a weldor by trade and have been a gun guy my whole life. I run a small shop that does precision microscopic welding. We repair plastic injection molds and stamping dies. We assemble and weld medical devices, aviation components, gauges & fixtures. Much of our welding is done using lasers, microscopes, and filler wires only .007"-.015" in diameter. Getting a FFL/SOT is something I have long wanted to do. This was initially somewhat of a 'test' to see if suppressor building was something I would want to consider undertaking.

I am not a designer or engineer. There are times I wish I were. My goal was to utilize many of the design and construction elements of top-end commercial suppressor builders in conjunction with my own ideas to create a suppressor that could possible perform on par with anything being sold. I have no doubts that my construction methods and quality are as good or better than many being offered for sale. I am not sure the design is as good, but I didn't have the luxury of R&D to make corrections or adjustments, so I mostly went with proven designs.

I already had most of the tools, machinery and technology to do this project. What equipment I didn't have; I had complete access to use at my disposal. I do favors for other shops and they do them for me in return. As I stated previously, the baffle spinning and the wire EDM were done on outside equipment. Everything else, was my doing in house.

There were about 8 months in the design and building of this can. I wasn't in any hurry. I got input from every toolmaker/gun guy I knew. Lots of friends and work associates provided insight, not every idea is mine. The internet was my best friend on this project. Without it, this never would have happened. I accumulated a comprehensive amount of design and material data and a picture library of hundreds of baffles, cores, tubes, mounts, ect. In hindsight, I would have spent more time doing CAD before the build. I think I could have come closer to my weight goal as the can is overbuilt and too heavy. More time with SolidWorks would have been very beneficial, but then that's not really my thing.

This project cost me nothing out of pocket but the stamp and the muzzle brake/mount. I could have made that too, but it was simply cheaper to purchase it and the quality was as good or better than I would have built. Not so with the can. I used idle machine time whenever it was available and the Form 1 can was used as 'fill-in' work when we were slow. The shop provided material, machine time, perishable tooling and labor. So sure, there were other 'costs' incurred, but they were mostly hidden, written off to the shop. Not like we wouldn't have been working on our boats, dirt bikes, trucks, guns or some other non-work work!!

As stated, I definitely would have been better off simply purchasing a M4-2000; if money were my only concern. But it wasn't really. Yes, I did personally save almost a thousand bucks. But I spent way more than that in shop time and running around. So why? What I got in return was simply the knowledge that I could do it. I'll bet there are few first builds that can run anywhere close to this in performance. I've not seen another F1 with an EDM'd bore or spun baffles. It was also something very out of my familiar territory. I took it and ran, did something new and different. I really enjoyed building it. The first time I shot this can, I grinned like an 8 year old kid getting his first pocket knife. :D

Not saying I'd never buy a commercial can, just probably not a rifle suppressor. A Thompson Machine wet 9mm can is next on my buy list, I won't build one as nice for what they charge.

I'm working on the design for a CQB stubby with a ratchet/QD mount for my SBR next!
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by este » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:34 pm

Wicked, thanks for that. Again, the can looks great.

I know a lot of people get into Form1 cans trying to save money, and without a machine shop like the ones you have access to it just makes NO SENSE. I try explaining that sometimes and it seems some people just straight up can't hear it. People need to make their own mistakes (I did!) but I hope someone reads through your post and doesn't skip over the important parts thinking that Form1 is a good idea for them. My impression is that Form1 is rarely a good idea for most people.

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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by kingjamez » Tue May 24, 2011 7:50 pm

este wrote:Wicked, thanks for that. Again, the can looks great.

I know a lot of people get into Form1 cans trying to save money, and without a machine shop like the ones you have access to it just makes NO SENSE. I try explaining that sometimes and it seems some people just straight up can't hear it. People need to make their own mistakes (I did!) but I hope someone reads through your post and doesn't skip over the important parts thinking that Form1 is a good idea for them. My impression is that Form1 is rarely a good idea for most people.
it seems like you are on an endless quest to convince everyone that Form 1'ing a silencer is the dumbest thing you can imagine, and that we are all dumb for trying it.

I think you should take note of the forum you are posting in: Silencersmithing. I find it rude to come to a forum about making silencers only to tell us it is not worth doing.

I build lots of stuff. It's fun, I am a maker at heart as are most people here. We enjoy the challenge, the learned lessons, and the satisfaction of the end product. Stop telling us we are dumb for doing so.

-Jim
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by jimmym40a2 » Tue May 24, 2011 8:03 pm

+1
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by delta9mda » Wed May 25, 2011 10:14 am

+2
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by delta9mda » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:23 am

bump
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Wicked » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:41 am

Here's the latest: I'm gonna' have the opportunity to get legitimate suppression test data on this can. No Radio Shack meters. No more, "It's stupid quiet." comments. I will have the 'real deal' numbers, not just my impression. I have been granted permission to run this Form 1 suppressor at a manufacturer's test session on June 11 in Indy.

Many THANKS to Bill (ArevaloSOCOM) of NFATalk.org and Corey (ssnfa) of SSNFA for letting me participate.

I'll get pics and video, with the numbers to follow.
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Shift1 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:27 pm

Wicked wrote:Here's the latest: I'm gonna' have the opportunity to get legitimate suppression test data on this can. No Radio Shack meters. No more, "It's stupid quiet." comments. I will have the 'real deal' numbers, not just my impression. I have been granted permission to run this Form 1 suppressor at a manufacturer's test session on June 11 in Indy.

Many THANKS to Bill (ArevaloSOCOM) of NFATalk.org and Corey (ssnfa) of SSNFA for letting me participate.

I'll get pics and video, with the numbers to follow.

Well that is great news! Can't wait for the results. Your build looks great. And the best part is that you did it yourself
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by delta9mda » Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:37 am

this needs to be in a sticky for members builds (along with the Tomovich 9mm can and Jimmy's stuff).
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Kevin/AAC » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:29 am

Mageever wrote:
Wicked wrote:Yea, unfortunately I think I built an AAC 249-SD. I should be able to make one like this at 20oz.
Nice! In before any "Nice 249-SD" remarks from Kevin. 8)

Thanks for sharing this. You've done a stellar job!

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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Shift1 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:47 pm

btt anxiuously waiting on test results
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Wicked » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:21 am

Long day. The test/metering session lasted almost 9 hours. Bill worked hard running the meters all day long. We tested 40 different cans or combinations, everything from .22lr up to .338 Mag. That 300 AAC/Whisper is very quiet heat in a short AR! I met some good people and learned a bunch about a bunch. Not a bad way to spend a Saturday.

Much to my dismay, I ended up being the very last one to start suppressor testing (#40) when the rain came down. I only got off seven shots; not enough to finish. Those guys pulled the plug on all three meters so fast it was amazing. They cost a small fortune, so I understand. Everyone was pretty burned out by that point so testing didn't resume.

Being a non-manufacturer, I kept patiently and politely waiting for my opportunity to shoot. That may not have been the best game plan as what I got was 'end-of-the-line' and then the clock ran out. Wasn't my party though. I'm over it. Found my big boy pants back at the house.

Anyway, the limited seven shot test results I did get were very promising. The can got better as it was warming up. I realize it's not a large enough sample to make it accurate though. Possibly there will be another opportunity to re-test in the future. Either way, I'm extremely happy with this design; it's a good one. That's what I really wanted to know.

I quickly looked at my numbers, but didn't get the chance to copy them. Once the data is sorted out and put up on NFATalk, I'll post it here.
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Wicked » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:38 pm

Here is the link to official test results at NFATalk: http://nfatalk.org/forum/showthread.php ... #post47444

I was only able to get a 5 shot suppressed sample plus 1 shot unsuppressed for reference.

Like anything else, testing is subjective. Still, I can now qualify and completely stand behind all previous "Stupid Quiet" statements with proof.



:D
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by zevdogs » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:42 pm

I'm not a member of nfa talk could you post it hear with a YouTube video

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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Wicked » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:00 pm

zevdogs wrote:I'm not a member of nfa talk could you post it hear with a YouTube video
If this interests you, please join up at NFATalk. It's free; but the suppressor test data they publish on the site is copyrighted. I have no investment there, they simply tested my can and published the results. No, I don't have any video. I want to avoid the current misleading trend to "Youtube silencer-test."

An inexpensive camera mic can't capture sound like the precision equipment that was used in these tests. Everyone in the suppressor industry seems to be in agreement that standard video cameras are total crap for sound comparisons. I agree. My cheap mic, your lousy speakers, ect. all combine to make it really difficult to get any meaningful sound comparison. At least in a scientific way. So what you end up with is, "That sounded awesome!" How much more or less 'awesome' is one suppressor than any other? Good question. That's why there is a very specific protocol for sound testing suppressors. The equipment is not inexpensive. But, (in theory) it levels the playing field as much as possible.

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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by Wicked » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:03 pm

They just updated the spreadsheet data; so here's the easy-to-read down and dirty:

Host - Remington 700 16" 1-9 twist barrel.
Ammo - Federal P223Q 60gr Nosler Partition.
Suppressor - Form 1 "Mk1 Mod.0" 5.56mm


1 meter - Unsuppressed: 168.00 - Suppressed: 134.34 - NSR: 33.66 db

Left Ear - Unsuppressed: 166.20 - Suppressed: 128.60 - NSR: 37.60 db

Right Ear - Unsuppressed: 167.20 - Suppressed: 129.30 - NSR: 37.90 db
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by PaulNoiseLess » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:32 am

Hi,

Congratulations once again for an excellent job.

My background reading of this post is that Commercial Suppressors should start learning signed language … :lol: Next time they give you the chance of using this dB Pro devices, you must be the first one in the line ! :evil: :evil:

Best,

Paul
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by 82nd airborne » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:32 am

Too bad you are not unemployed and struggeling for money, I'd take advantage of you with a job offer with low pay, long hours, terrible benifits, but at least the shop is air conditioned and you get to shoot stuff! I love seeing a good form 1 can. Congrats.
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Re: 5.56mm Form 1 Suppressor Construction Pics

Post by delta9mda » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:21 am

been a while but i just had to look at this again, drool.
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