Fusion Circumference Welding

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600
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Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by 600 »

Hi people....need some inputs from experts here. I have a bunch of questions so I jsut put them in a list and hope some on can point them out for which is best/suitable. Its for Bolt gun design, no full auto fire.

1. I was thinking about to fusion circumference weld my first 308 can. The problem Iøve been told is that steel types such as 316L, 304L spacers are going to loose their dimensions once its heated up by the welding machine, making it non-concentric once the product is finished. So the solution is partially weld(but still full circumference) with lower energy output from the welder(I don't know if I use the right term) to keep the temperature even and the welding seam consistant. Does any of this give sense?

What does AAC do to overcome this problem?

Any idea?

2. Which materials are the best one, heat treated 17-4PH, heat treated 316L, duplex xxxx, or heat treated inconel 718?

3. Regarding the baffles, should one machine first and heat treat after or heat treat first and machine after?

4. I've decided to go with 1.6mm thickness in the outter tubing and 1.4mm for the spacers tubes inside and 3mm thick blast baffle with 2mm normal baffles to follow. Can any of these spec be thinned even more? Or should I make them all thicker?

5. And last question, any reason to go with heat treated baffles all the way down, or just the blast baffle?

Thanks people!
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este
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by este »

Uh.... What is it you think you are gaining by making a can more or less identical to AACs product part? I mean, besides your can will almost certainly be heavier and louder.

Why is it everyone thinks they can one cheaper than they can buy? If you want 10 then build, if you want one, buy it. I promise it'll be cheaper, better, and faster.

Since no one ever takes that advice, I can just answer your question I guess.


AAC gets around welding tolerances by EDMing the bore after final assembly. So, not only do you probably not have a cnc welder, you also probably do not have an EDM.

Your materials question has no answer. Better for what? 17-4PH is going to machine better than Inconel. Inconel will be more resistant to erosion. Either way, I assume you are talking about buying small quantities of more or less exotic alloys. Small amount of unusal metals get pricey.

Most often you want to avoid trying to machine heat treated parts. The speeds and feeds change around for heat treated parts and it's going to be hard on your tools. Are you an expert machinist and decent tools?

1,6mm is roughly 1/6", a 3mm blast baffle is going to be considerably heavier than any production can you would buy. You can't ask questions about metal thickness the way you are, there is no way to answer. What is a 2mm "Normal Baffle"? Because if it's flat, it's going to be a lot weaker than a fluted cone like AAC uses. Do you have any experience with building or even using silencers?

For the same reason no one could answer anything about baffle thickness with any accuracy, same reason on heat treating. Do you have a 1000 degree (F) oven to do heat treating? It seems heat treating would be very expensive for a one-off can.


The only reason I even answered this is that you're either not an American because you used metric measurements. Or you are an Engineer. Either way, if you can, BUY AN AAC CAN, you're going to save yourself a ton of money, time, and work. If you can't buy AAC, buy something else, or try a more basic design. I could see being up to $2000+ by trying to build a 1:1 copy.
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jimmym40a2
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by jimmym40a2 »

If you have the equipment o do it your self go for it. You can probably have it
EDM'ed for not to much. If you have your own shop you might be able to swap shop time with them for free. Be sure and post pictures as you go.
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600
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by 600 »

:mrgreen:

Not from US and about to start the mechnical engineer school thats for the metric system.

You know not because I want to do a 1:1 copy but because I really love to study how other cans are built and sees every problem(this welding one) as a challenge.

As far as the equipment there is no problem I have free access to almost every machine I desire, orbital welding, CNC milling, turning, and EDM and all the tools I need along with materials. Bunch of inconel, titanium, stainless steel flowing around in the workshop.

So if this try is going to fail I'm going to laugh my ass off. With all the high tech gear and still not able to bring something cool! :lol:

So its not because I want to buy one off, but more because I like the suppressor technology and like just many people around here to build one myself and see how good I'm at it.
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by delta9mda »

este wrote:Uh.... What is it you think you are gaining by making a can more or less identical to AACs product part? I mean, besides your can will almost certainly be heavier and louder.

Why is it everyone thinks they can one cheaper than they can buy? If you want 10 then build, if you want one, buy it. I promise it'll be cheaper, better, and faster.

Since no one ever takes that advice, I can just answer your question I guess.


AAC gets around welding tolerances by EDMing the bore after final assembly. So, not only do you probably not have a cnc welder, you also probably do not have an EDM.

Your materials question has no answer. Better for what? 17-4PH is going to machine better than Inconel. Inconel will be more resistant to erosion. Either way, I assume you are talking about buying small quantities of more or less exotic alloys. Small amount of unusal metals get pricey.

Most often you want to avoid trying to machine heat treated parts. The speeds and feeds change around for heat treated parts and it's going to be hard on your tools. Are you an expert machinist and decent tools?

1,6mm is roughly 1/6", a 3mm blast baffle is going to be considerably heavier than any production can you would buy. You can't ask questions about metal thickness the way you are, there is no way to answer. What is a 2mm "Normal Baffle"? Because if it's flat, it's going to be a lot weaker than a fluted cone like AAC uses. Do you have any experience with building or even using silencers?

For the same reason no one could answer anything about baffle thickness with any accuracy, same reason on heat treating. Do you have a 1000 degree (F) oven to do heat treating? It seems heat treating would be very expensive for a one-off can.


The only reason I even answered this is that you're either not an American because you used metric measurements. Or you are an Engineer. Either way, if you can, BUY AN AAC CAN, you're going to save yourself a ton of money, time, and work. If you can't buy AAC, buy something else, or try a more basic design. I could see being up to $2000+ by trying to build a 1:1 copy.
way to help a bro out and no doing a one off does not cost more than buying a can. wtf?
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delta9mda
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by delta9mda »

if he is not in the us he cant buy an aac can anyways
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by Mongo »

Think Preheat and EDM for final bore cutting.

Blast baffle only being hardened is ok but the complete stack is better for long term high volume.
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PaulNoiseLess
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by PaulNoiseLess »

Hi,

So, if you've got ...

"free access to almost every machine I desire, orbital welding, CNC milling, turning, and EDM and all the tools I need along with materials. Bunch of inconel, titanium, stainless steel flowing around in the workshop"

... and you are not in USA ...

what hell are you waiting for ?, the sky is your limit !

(Post pics & vids of your work and progress)

Just 2 weeks to go !

Best,

Paul

PS: A friend of mine went to Bolivia to hunt Cats few weeks ago and saw (and had on his hands) an AAC Cans there ... It's Bolivia, you know ...
The future is not waiting for us, it is waiting within us ...
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wolf
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by wolf »

Usa is not the only country that has restrictions :?

Some places you have to say please , other places ,they say no way

then there is places where you can not get a straight answer :roll:
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Bandit
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by Bandit »

600 wrote:Hi people....need some inputs from experts here. I have a bunch of questions so I jsut put them in a list and hope some on can point them out for which is best/suitable. Its for Bolt gun design, no full auto fire.

1. I was thinking about to fusion circumference weld my first 308 can. The problem Iøve been told is that steel types such as 316L, 304L spacers are going to loose their dimensions once its heated up by the welding machine, making it non-concentric once the product is finished. So the solution is partially weld(but still full circumference) with lower energy output from the welder(I don't know if I use the right term) to keep the temperature even and the welding seam consistant. Does any of this give sense?

What does AAC do to overcome this problem?


este wrote:Uh.... What is it you think you are gaining by making a can more or less identical to AACs product part? I mean, besides your can will almost certainly be heavier and louder.

Why is it everyone thinks they can one cheaper than they can buy? If you want 10 then build, if you want one, buy it. I promise it'll be cheaper, better, and faster.
Nowhere do I see him saying that he's trying to copy a AAC can. Nope don't see it.
Did you wear your glasses when you read his post ?
He only asked how to over come the problem of welding.

BTW, lots of threads here where guys made a 30cal. can for under $200. in materials plus $200. for the stamp.
Did you take your meds today ?



.
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600
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by 600 »

Bandit wrote:
600 wrote:Hi people....need some inputs from experts here. I have a bunch of questions so I jsut put them in a list and hope some on can point them out for which is best/suitable. Its for Bolt gun design, no full auto fire.

1. I was thinking about to fusion circumference weld my first 308 can. The problem Iøve been told is that steel types such as 316L, 304L spacers are going to loose their dimensions once its heated up by the welding machine, making it non-concentric once the product is finished. So the solution is partially weld(but still full circumference) with lower energy output from the welder(I don't know if I use the right term) to keep the temperature even and the welding seam consistant. Does any of this give sense?

What does AAC do to overcome this problem?


este wrote:Uh.... What is it you think you are gaining by making a can more or less identical to AACs product part? I mean, besides your can will almost certainly be heavier and louder.

Why is it everyone thinks they can one cheaper than they can buy? If you want 10 then build, if you want one, buy it. I promise it'll be cheaper, better, and faster.
Nowhere do I see him saying that he's trying to copy a AAC can. Nope don't see it.
Did you wear your glasses when you read his post ?
He only asked how to over come the problem of welding.

BTW, lots of threads here where guys made a 30cal. can for under $200. in materials plus $200. for the stamp.
Did you take your meds today ?



.
+1

Construction wise I'm planing to do a main tube in 316L, baffles in 316L and end caps with threading-on type in 304 or 316L?

The question is this, since the entire unit is made out of 316L the most obvious might be going with 316L end caps as well. But after a little research I found out that 304 are more wear resistant, and since this can is a primitive thread-on type there will be a lot thread on and thread off, thus the question 304 vs. 316L regarding this threading friction issue. Maybe the 304 will hold up better for particular this component in the overall design?

Then again how is the material integrity when its going to be fully orbital welded together with 316L main tube? Is it good to go or are there many other alternatives beside the 304 and 316L for this particular question?

Thanks people!
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by James DeGroat »

You will be more than fine using 316L for your thread mount.

Remember not just the suppressor threads will wear, so with the threads on the host weapon, but this very minimal and happens very slowly.
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delta9mda
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by delta9mda »

why thread the unit on and off many times?
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by 600 »

delta9mda wrote:why thread the unit on and off many times?
Well I don't think its going on and off all the time anyway, but you know why not build something that lasts, especially with all the paperwork related to it, its hell of a "kick my self in the face" sitaution if the thread gets ruined and new paper works must be done just because of the thread :wink:
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by delta9mda »

600 wrote:
delta9mda wrote:why thread the unit on and off many times?
Well I don't think its going on and off all the time anyway, but you know why not build something that lasts, especially with all the paperwork related to it, its hell of a "kick my self in the face" sitaution if the thread gets ruined and new paper works must be done just because of the thread :wink:
you wont need new paper work to re-thread
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by Bowen1911 »

Bandit wrote:
600 wrote:Hi people....need some inputs from experts here. I have a bunch of questions so I jsut put them in a list and hope some on can point them out for which is best/suitable. Its for Bolt gun design, no full auto fire.

1. I was thinking about to fusion circumference weld my first 308 can. The problem Iøve been told is that steel types such as 316L, 304L spacers are going to loose their dimensions once its heated up by the welding machine, making it non-concentric once the product is finished. So the solution is partially weld(but still full circumference) with lower energy output from the welder(I don't know if I use the right term) to keep the temperature even and the welding seam consistant. Does any of this give sense?

What does AAC do to overcome this problem?


este wrote:Uh.... What is it you think you are gaining by making a can more or less identical to AACs product part? I mean, besides your can will almost certainly be heavier and louder.

Why is it everyone thinks they can one cheaper than they can buy? If you want 10 then build, if you want one, buy it. I promise it'll be cheaper, better, and faster.
Nowhere do I see him saying that he's trying to copy a AAC can. Nope don't see it.
Did you wear your glasses when you read his post ?
He only asked how to over come the problem of welding.

BTW, lots of threads here where guys made a 30cal. can for under $200. in materials plus $200. for the stamp.
Did you take your meds today ?



.

I am going to agree with you completely right here.
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by rcrdps »

+1 on the silencer cost issue. This is a silencerSMITHING forum. Not a silencerBUYING forum. If you want to sell a silencer, go to the other forum. We want to build silencers here. This isn't the first time I've seen this. Just using this one to rant.

Now on to more techincal matters,.....

I know you said you weren't doing full auto or semi-auto,... but why the tempering? Do they really temper cans? Seems with a semi-auto, you'd cook the tempering right out of it. Maybe it's not as hot as I think, but they absolutely smoke those things in videos. It only takes like 4-500 degrees to bring the temper down to make blue spring steel.

As far as warping, I've considered this too. Though this wouldn't take out the warp, it might help adjust for it: Don't thread the end until after you've welded it. Then chuck the whole thing in the lathe, and thread it. That would average out some of the warp. But how much warp will you really get with tube thickness enough to withstand a .308? Folks weld them all the time at home.

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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by Bendersquint »

este wrote:Uh.... What is it you think you are gaining by making a can more or less identical to AACs product part?
So..... anyone who makes a can with full circumference welding is copying an AAC product?

Its a welding technique and not exclusive to AAC, they just brought it to everyone attention through their ad campaign about how everyone elses cans are inferior and weak without full circumference welding!

-B
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by Wicked »

Bendersquint wrote:Its a welding technique and not exclusive to AAC, they just brought it to everyone attention through their ad campaign about how everyone elses cans are inferior and weak without full circumference welding!

-B
The AAC construction process may appear fairly simple and obvious to everyone now. But fusion welding completely around the diameter to secure core sections of a suppressor in one piece then welded to the outer tube was considered 'revolutionary' enough to be granted exclusive protection in the US.

The method and circumferential welding technique that AAC uses in the construction of their 'fully welded' cores is in fact, patented.


http://www.google.com/patents?id=tTDHAA ... &q&f=false
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600
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by 600 »

I found a youtube video for AAC's Titan cans(don't have the link now:().
The guy is plug welding them. And then I was like "why do a circumference if the plug is jsut as good?" Unless the plug weld is not as good of course! But then again Titan is for 338, so it should be sufficient for a 308? Plug won't warp as much as full circumference.

Anyone with some input on the plug vs. circumference?
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Re: Fusion Circumference Welding

Post by Mongo »

AAC uses plug welds are used on monolithic cores. Plug welds are not as strong as circumferential welds in non monolithic cores.
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