silencer shop question

[usp_tactical_45]

So i have been thinking... with all the different types of suppressors that all the big manufacturers are making they must have massive machine shops to make all the baffles.. tubes.. qd muzzle brakes end caps and on top of that to anodize, or paint on finishes ( cannot think of that type of paint moly something ) not only that but then they need machines to engrave... in short its a lot of machines.

I work in the aero/space industry and i cannot help but wonder do/can companies like aac contract out to have other companies make tubes or baffles or qd muzzle breaks for them ? I am pretty sure the answer is no but i though i would ask, and i ask because if joe shmo was going to start a suppressor shop it would ( if he used cnc equipment ) easily cost over 2ook to get going and thats only 2 lathes ( new mazak's ) with a building and bar feeders... a saw to cut material and some hoppers ( if that ).

now it would work out i guess if you went straight for govt contracts ( maybe ) but i dont see how companies like aac and gemtec make the money to survive i mean hey i like silencers as much as you guys do how ever i bet only 10 maybe 15 % of gun owners in america own suppressors ( and i bet 15% is a vary high guess ).

so my question in short is if you where going to start a business doing this would you:

A) be able to contract out
B) have to spend big money on cnc machines
c) just make every thing on engine lathes and mills

again just something i was wondering while running my machine the other night, Oh and if they do/can contract out to have shops make stuff does that shop also need an ffl and class 7 manufacturers license ( i think thats what it is ) ?

[sumkrnboy]

I guess it all depends on how much capital and loans you can get to start the business. Before you start cranking out parts anyways, you will need a proven design.

How about starting off with small prototyping machines? If there is a market for your designs and are worth mass producing, acquire some larger scale CNC machinery.

You could also contract out parts to other manufacturers with an NDA, but they would need an FFL 07/02 SOT.

[usp_tactical_45]

I guess it all depends on how much capital and loans you can get to start the business. Before you start cranking out parts anyways, you will need a proven design.

How about starting off with small prototyping machines? If there is a market for your designs and are worth mass producing, acquire some larger scale CNC machinery.

You could also contract out parts to other manufacturers with an NDA, but they would need an FFL 07/02 SOT.

nda ? and what are the ffl 07/02's like 250 bucks or are then like 1500 bucks ? trust me i just dont think the big guys could do it with out govt contracts at least not enough if they could not contract out

iam personally not going to do this like i said i was just board running my machine... and wanted to bring this up

[sumkrnboy]

NDA = Non-Disclosure Agreement

$150 for first three years of FFL 07 (Manufacturers)
$1,000, $500 if gross revenue < $500,000/year (Manufacturer of NFA)
$2,250/year for the ITAR registration fee

[PaulNoiseLess]

Hi,

That’s a very interesting point.

Now, before starting a new business (no matter what it is) you have to look at the actual market.

There is no data available regarding Suppressors Market but if you give for true that 10% of USA Guns (Privately owned) got a Suppressor (what I don’t really know) then you’ve got 30 Million Suppressors out there and 400.000 being sold and/or built every year.

So, that means that at an average cost of u$s 500 per Can, you are looking at a nice u$s 200 Million Market.

Finally, you can figure out what’s the top selling type of Gun/Caliber and who the top seller is and you’ve got a marketing target in both sides, the technical and the selling. Partner with a CNC high tech 02/07 shop and piggy back the distribution channel offering better margins. At the same time, offer to Trade In your competitors Cans. Your goal shouldn’t be less than grabbing 5% market share first year.

Good luck with your new business.

Source for USA Guns data: NRA, “Firearm Fact Card 2011” (1/20/2011)

Best,

Paul

[usp_tactical_45]

Hi,

That’s a very interesting point.

Now, before starting a new business (no matter what it is) you have to look at the actual market.

There is no data available regarding Suppressors Market but if you give for true that 10% of USA Guns (Privately owned) got a Suppressor (what I don’t really know) then you’ve got 30 Million Suppressors out there and 400.000 being sold and/or built every year.

So, that means that at an average cost of u$s 500 per Can, you are looking at a nice u$s 200 Million Market.

Finally, you can figure out what’s the top selling type of Gun/Caliber and who the top seller is and you’ve got a marketing target in both sides, the technical and the selling. Partner with a CNC high tech 02/07 shop and piggy back the distribution channel offering better margins. At the same time, offer to Trade In your competitors Cans. Your goal shouldn’t be less than grabbing 5% market share first year.

Good luck with your new business.

Source for USA Guns data: NRA, “Firearm Fact Card 2011” (1/20/2011)

Best,

Paul

not trying to start a business... just asking questions to pass the time away while i cut parts at the shop

[usp_tactical_45]

ok so another question comes to mind... If you had joe down the street cutting your tubes and baffles and your just refinishing boxing and selling the cans and he has to have an ffl/07 and keep books does that also mean you have to wait for the tubes to transfer from him to you so that you can assemble them and then sell them to the dealers ?

[57fairlane]

How about starting off with small prototyping machines? If there is a market for your designs and are worth mass producing, acquire some larger scale CNC machinery.

I would go with a ProtoTrax machine without a doubt.

Simple enough that non-CNC machinists can use it but the machine itself is complex enough to do almost everything a traditional enclosed CNC machine can do. Not to mention they can accept NC files.

[usp_tactical_45]

How about starting off with small prototyping machines? If there is a market for your designs and are worth mass producing, acquire some larger scale CNC machinery.

I would go with a ProtoTrax machine without a doubt.

Simple enough that non-CNC machinists can use it but the machine itself is complex enough to do almost everything a traditional enclosed CNC machine can do. Not to mention they can accept NC files.

i looked that up... a proto trak is a little thing you attach to a manual machine and it makes it nc how ever i think its kinda silly to be honest cause how would you beep your tools off ? ( pre set ?)

[57fairlane]

i looked that up... a proto trak is a little thing you attach to a manual machine and it makes it nc how ever i think its kinda silly to be honest cause how would you beep your tools off ? ( pre set ?)

Huh?

http://www.southwesternindustries.com/s ... ucts.shtml

These are ProtoTRAK machines (I guess there is an attachment than ends in a X instead of a K).
If you have a bridgeport then obviously the cheapest option is to put a DRO on it.

If by "beep" your tools off you mean set tool offsets then you would do that the same way you do any other CNC machine. Touch off on the work in Z with your tool (I like the scrap piece of paper option) and enter that value in the DRO into the tool offsets page.

Not really sure what you are trying to say here about the NC file . . . ?

[JasonAAC]

You don't jump into it starting with making 30+ different models like AAC, you start out making a simple design- rimfire or pistol typically- that you can make with only one or 2 machines. then, as you grow, you add resources and machines. Sometimes this does mean subcontracting some parts. Eventually if you have good product and are somewhat lucky, you get to the point where you win a few big contracts, sell a bunch of your early cans and end up with a big factory with a bunch of machines running non stop.

Mills, lathes, All kinds of CNC machines, robot welders, lasers, bead blast machines, paint, ovens, couple different EDMs, presses, etc.

[usp_tactical_45]

i looked that up... a proto trak is a little thing you attach to a manual machine and it makes it nc how ever i think its kinda silly to be honest cause how would you beep your tools off ? ( pre set ?)

Huh?

http://www.southwesternindustries.com/s ... ucts.shtml

These are ProtoTRAK machines (I guess there is an attachment than ends in a X instead of a K).
If you have a bridgeport then obviously the cheapest option is to put a DRO on it.

If by "beep" your tools off you mean set tool offsets then you would do that the same way you do any other CNC machine. Touch off on the work in Z with your tool (I like the scrap piece of paper option) and enter that value in the DRO into the tool offsets page.

Not really sure what you are trying to say here about the NC file . . . ?

nc was just slang for cnc... and ya i guess i mean how do you measure your tools like in my nc lathe i have a tool eye i can "beep" boring bars and turn tools off on.

those machines look like they would do the job.. wonder what they cost ? I was personally thinking to start off with a Bridgeport with a dro and a manual lathe with a dro.... if i was going to do it... how ever... when you run machines all night you get all kinds of crazy ideas when you think to much.

jason thanks for the heads up

[generaldisarray]

Your showing your age
NC is NOT the same as CNC
The 1st C stands for computer

As for doing work for the big silencer mfgs

I have (am the owner) of a bona-fide machine shop. With full bore CNC mills and lathes. With names like Mori seiki and Hardinge.

I tried (not very hard)to get some work in this area and got absolutely nowhere.

[usp_tactical_45]

Your showing your age
NC is NOT the same as CNC
The 1st C stands for computer

As for doing work for the big silencer mfgs

I have (am the owner) of a bona-fide machine shop. With full bore CNC mills and lathes. With names like Mori seiki and Hardinge.

I tried (not very hard)to get some work in this area and got absolutely nowhere.

NC = numerically controlled ... and i think its kinda obvious it would be by computer... idk maybe your shop and the aero/space machine shop i work at are different, I run a mazak and have messed with the mori's and even ran a hardinge for a little bit but i honestly think the hardinge is junk... just my .02 and from my experience

you tried to get work to do .... ? suppressors ?

[57fairlane]

nc was just slang for cnc...

kind of . . . a NC file is the g-code file the CNC machine uses. It is essentially a filename extension like .DXF or .IGES than can also be opened by microsoft notepad.

how do you measure your tools like in my nc lathe i have a tool eye i can "beep" boring bars and turn tools off on.

I just touch off on a setup part . . . . the X value stays the same for a given tool (with minor adjustments in wear over time) and the Z can be set the same way if its important. If not that critical (+-.005 or so) than you can just eyeball it by bringing the insert in front of the workpiece and looking down the tool.

[usp_tactical_45]

how do you measure your tools like in my nc lathe i have a tool eye i can "beep" boring bars and turn tools off on.

I just touch off on a setup part . . . . the X value stays the same for a given tool (with minor adjustments in wear over time) and the Z can be set the same way if its important. If not that critical (+-.005 or so) than you can just eyeball it by bringing the insert in front of the workpiece and looking down the tool.[/quote]

if i am running billets i will touch my tool off on the billet or use the paper method other wise i use the tool eye it just seems much quicker.

all and all i guess each shop is different on how they teach and like things done i guess

[generaldisarray]

Your showing your age
NC is NOT the same as CNC
The 1st C stands for computer

As for doing work for the big silencer mfgs

I have (am the owner) of a bona-fide machine shop. With full bore CNC mills and lathes. With names like Mori seiki and Hardinge.

I tried (not very hard)to get some work in this area and got absolutely nowhere.

NC = numerically controlled ... and i think its kinda obvious it would be by computer... idk maybe your shop and the aero/space machine shop i work at are different, I run a mazak and have messed with the mori's and even ran a hardinge for a little bit but i honestly think the hardinge is junk... just my .02 and from my experience

you tried to get work to do .... ? suppressors ?

and i think its kinda obvious it would be by computer

I just wanted to help
youd be surprised what people come up with left to themselves
Basically, Before memory they were NC controls. with memory= CNC


Hardinge mills- yes I think they suck big time
Hardinge lathes= not even a little, they are tight butt-hole ....Mostly.

you tried to get work to do .... ? suppressors ?

I would do anything. I just did some cold calling and got nowhere.

[usp_tactical_45]

i personally feel that any one that can make something that is quality and can market as good or better then aac could make suppressors and be right up their with the big dogs bumping elbow's and all that.

i think personally aac is the industry standard... i honestly do... i personally would love to have a silencer co sparrow but i have never seen one in person or shot one... nor have i any aac 22 cans, the sparrow is just an impressively machined suppressor its ( to me ) so impressively machined that its uncool ... kinda like lamborghini's are so cool that they are uncool ( to me ) if any of this makes sense and because of that i think ill end up with a prodigy.


i think if a company was as creative as aac they could run with aac... not only does aac make amazing things but they have cool logo's and patches and stickers and flags and ________ fill the blank in i bet lots of people dont even own an aac they just buy aac's cool s--t ... i personally only have aac' cans but wow i spend money on their cool s--t because its cool and i think because of aac's aggressive suppressor's and the way they attack industry with cool shirts and stickers and hats and hoodies all that stuff also brings in customers that cannot or dont wanna go threw the hassle of a form 4.

so i guess it just comes back to if you want it bad enough you could do it.... if i could have a small place to get started and machines i would try my hand at suppressors... but that just isnt going to happen lol

[Table Rock Arms]

You don't jump into it starting with making 30+ different models like AAC, you start out making a simple design- rimfire or pistol typically- that you can make with only one or 2 machines. then, as you grow, you add resources and machines. Sometimes this does mean subcontracting some parts. Eventually if you have good product and are somewhat lucky, you get to the point where you win a few big contracts, sell a bunch of your early cans and end up with a big factory with a bunch of machines running non stop.

Mills, lathes, All kinds of CNC machines, robot welders, lasers, bead blast machines, paint, ovens, couple different EDMs, presses, etc.

This is your answer right here.

Also, when you say your not sure how these companies can make money with all their overhead. Keep in mind that they are running their machines non stop and they can not keep up with demand. I am a fairly new SOT and I ordered a bunch of SS sparrows from Silencerco a few months ago and the wait is 6 months. I also ordered some AAC 762-SDN-6's and AAC told me six months unless I get from a distributor it would be a 6 month wait so i ordered from a distributor (I got em today). I don't think these company's are 6 months back because they are not working. Its because the suppressor industry is growing faster than they are.

[bakerjw]

An NC was a numerical control. Ge made several styles Mark Century 100, 550, 7500. They were essentially big electronic pachinko machines. They'd read a block off of punched tape which was the code. The code set up the internal switches for counting. Then they'd read the coordinates in as X, Y, Z. which would go into counters. Then the machine would move and update the counters. Each NC control was hard wired to the machine. Nasty beasts.

Then came the CNCs which had processors. The Allen Bradley 7300 had a processor built completely out of TTL ICs. There was one board set that had a micro processor but it was only for program storage.

Ah the good ole days. Give me a Fanuc or Mazak and I'm a happy camper. Heck even an Allen Bradley 8200 would make me happy and they still used punched tapes.

[rockmup]

ok so another question comes to mind... If you had joe down the street cutting your tubes and baffles and your just refinishing boxing and selling the cans and he has to have an ffl/07 and keep books does that also mean you have to wait for the tubes to transfer from him to you so that you can assemble them and then sell them to the dealers ?

No.. Its done for you under a variance.

Its done ALL the time by lots of them.

[GlockBuyer]

There is no data available regarding Suppressors Market but if you give for true that 10% of USA Guns (Privately owned) got a Suppressor (what I don’t really know) then you’ve got 30 Million Suppressors out there and 400.000 being sold and/or built every year.

Not true. NFA Transfer Activity is released by the ATF. You can figure out how many suppressors & other NFA items are transferred every year (and other important data). Markets outside the USA require more homework.