Aluminum .223 silencer question

[bruce korty]

I've read many posts about aluminum .223 suppressors not being able to stand up to pressure, giving without warning, becoming a grenade, etc. Granted, they can't take the heat of semi or full auto fire, but has anyone ever personally witnessed one fail or have first hand knowledge (not heresay) of one failing on a bolt action? I know of two form 1's made out of Maglights that have been used extensively without any problems.

[RPM509]

I've never seen nor do I know someone who has had a catastrophic failure of a suppressor.
I don't think it is because people use 'aluminum', I think failures would be because 'they' would use the wrong
kind of aluminum or use a poor design or a combination of the two.

If you put crap in, you get crap out.

Mag-light uses quality Alu, although I would hesitate to use a mag-light tube on a high-pressure round
and/or under full auto conditions without knowing more about the Alu used in their construction etc.

[Bendersquint]

I've never seen nor do I know someone who has had a catastrophic failure of a suppressor.
I don't think it is because people use 'aluminum', I think failures would be because 'they' would use the wrong
kind of aluminum or use a poor design or a combination of the two.

If you put crap in, you get crap out.

Mag-light uses quality Alu, although I would hesitate to use a mag-light tube on a high-pressure round
and/or under full auto conditions without knowing more about the Alu used in their construction etc.

You also don't hear about catastropic failures because who would go on the boards and admit to it because of using aluminum in an .223 can. I assure you that it has happened, I have seen 2 kaboomed aluminum 556 can, was built with the "RIGHT" aluminum and it still blew. The design was solid and vetted.

At the same time you also never hear from the guys that build Form1's's and end up with terrible cans, it happens alot more often than you hear.

There is a reason that aluminum isn't used in centerfire rifle cans.

[ranb]

I have been open about my failures here on the forum. My first 223 can was 4130 for the tube, end caps and blast baffle. The remainder is aluminum. My brother heated it up enough to blister the Krylon paint job one time, but other than that I have avoided rapid fire; I do not let the barrel get higher than 212 F.

I also screwed up a weld the first time I welded stainless steel with the new gas kit on my MIG welder. The second round sent the can guts up to 80 yards downrange.


My advice is to not use aluminum on any silencer intended for use on a center fire semi-auto rifle. My 223 can is showing signs of gas cutting on the front of the K baffles.

I am happy with my work with a few exceptions.
My first 223 can with aluminum baffles; too loud with 223, fine with 22 k-hornet.
AK can; too short/loud,
458 socom can; too short/loud.

While the rest of my work shows the typical signs of a novice machinist/welder (me), I am getting better and have no real regrets, other than screwing up the weld that failed. I am going to be making cans for the next +30 years if I live that long so I have much to learn and even more fun to have.

Ranb

[PaulNoiseLess]

Hi,

I’ve been building and using Aluminum Cans for Center Fire Rifles for a while now so i think i know what I’m talking about.

PLEASE, READ CAREFULLY:

1) Aluminum Cans based on Baffles (mainly Cones but also some others but always welded) are some sort of disposable Silencers, not suitable for target shooting and mostly used with subsonic Ammunition. For Hunting and Bolt Action Guns they can do a good job (due to its lightweight) but last just for few hundred shots.
2) Aluminum MonoCores are OK as long as you know what you do and how to do: SS Tube & Blast plus a robust Alu Core are just good and last longer than Baffles.
3) Aluminum TubeLess Cans are OK for Hunting, even using full power (commercial) Ammo. Last longer than any other combination. The only way to have long live and good performance. Still doubts on legalities but due to a recent Manufacturer announcement, looks like legal already.
4) Aluminum Can be used to lighten Cans (and it’s actually being used by USA Manufacturers) for the far end set of Baffles.

Search the Forum and you’ll find out more info. There are tons of debates that one, reading carefully, can have some better understanding on this matter.

For USA citizens who want to start a Form 1 project, I just do not recommend Aluminum for Suppressors due to economic and legal issues.

Best,

Paul

[Capt. Link.]

I have seen a few blow up on full auto. I have also seen Steel cans with there sides in the blast area bloated on bolt guns one shot before rupture.The cost of the finest steel is cheap titanium can be had also. Unless you can repair as you go why waste your money and time on something you know has a finite life.Injury's can be tragic why risk it.

[SRM]

I have seen a few blow up on full auto. I have also seen Steel cans with there sides in the blast area bloated on bolt guns one shot before rupture.The cost of the finest steel is cheap titanium can be had also. Unless you can repair as you go why waste your money and time on something you know has a finite life.Injury's can be tragic why risk it.

+ 1 there!!! Build a beast as you can always remove metal but you cant put it back. Not in this hobby.

[CastleRocker]

I have been open about my failures here on the forum. My first 223 can was 4130 for the tube, end caps and blast baffle. The remainder is aluminum. My brother heated it up enough to blister the Krylon paint job one time, but other than that I have avoided rapid fire; I do not let the barrel get higher than 212 F.

I also screwed up a weld the first time I welded stainless steel with the new gas kit on my MIG welder. The second round sent the can guts up to 80 yards downrange.


My advice is to not use aluminum on any silencer intended for use on a center fire semi-auto rifle. My 223 can is showing signs of gas cutting on the front of the K baffles.

I am happy with my work with a few exceptions.
My first 223 can with aluminum baffles; too loud with 223, fine with 22 k-hornet.
AK can; too short/loud,
458 socom can; too short/loud.

While the rest of my work shows the typical signs of a novice machinist/welder (me), I am getting better and have no real regrets, other than screwing up the weld that failed. I am going to be making cans for the next +30 years if I live that long so I have much to learn and even more fun to have.

Ranb

Thank you for being so very open on your builds. I stumbled onto your Youtube video, and it is far and away the most informative as to ALL aspects of building a can. Everything from filling out the form properly to the various aspects of your builds. I am looking forward to building my first one. I would however like to build it to be as lightweight as possible without interferring with the safety or funtion, so I will be following this thread with continued interest.

[daz59]

Hi all,

Im a suppressor manufacturer here in New Zealand, I have build and sold hundreds, all of my suppressors are made from aluminium tube and stainless internals, I build them for upto 300win mag, never ever had one open up, the tube is only 3mm thick in the blast chamber, I also do a lightweight suppressor for upto 30-06, 2024 tube, 1.5mm thick wall and the same stainless internals, weight comes in at 330grams

I have tested the said lightweight suppressor on my 7mm rem mag without any problems, we are lucky here in NZ as we can build what we want without any paper work.

Darren

[wolf]

Hi all,

Im a suppressor manufacturer here in New Zealand, I have build and sold hundreds, all of my suppressors are made from aluminium tube and stainless internals, I build them for upto 300win mag, never ever had one open up, the tube is only 3mm thick in the blast chamber, I also do a lightweight suppressor for upto 30-06, 2024 tube, 1.5mm thick wall and the same stainless internals, weight comes in at 330grams

I have tested the said lightweight suppressor on my 7mm rem mag without any problems, we are lucky here in NZ as we can build what we want without any paper work.

Darren

is there a link to where you sell those cans by the hundreds ?+

pics is always nice , showing the guts even better

[daz59]

is there a link to where you sell those cans by the hundreds ?+

pics is always nice , showing the guts even better

I dont sell them by the hundreds, have sold over 400 in 3 years now..... see my post in silencer talk, has a vew pictures.

Darren

[Bendersquint]

is there a link to where you sell those cans by the hundreds ?+

pics is always nice , showing the guts even better

I dont sell them by the hundreds, have sold over 400 in 3 years now..... see my post in silencer talk, has a vew pictures.

Darren

Didn't see any internal pictures on there just threaded tubes.....

[CMV]

Is all aluminum bad or just softer ones like 5xxx/6xxx? 2024 & 7075 are close in strength to a lot of the 3xx series stainless steel. Nowhere near something like 15-5 or 17-4 but i thought a lot of the stainless used here was stuff like 316 & 416. Why would a design that's ok for 416 SS fail if 7075 AL was used instead?

Not arguing - trying to learn the differences. Comparing tensile strength, hardness, etc, 7075 is stronger & lighter than 416. Does something like thermal expansion, ability to heat treat, or some other property make it more suitable?

[Bendersquint]

Is all aluminum bad or just softer ones like 5xxx/6xxx? 2024 & 7075 are close in strength to a lot of the 3xx series stainless steel. Nowhere near something like 15-5 or 17-4 but i thought a lot of the stainless used here was stuff like 316 & 416. Why would a design that's ok for 416 SS fail if 7075 AL was used instead?

Not arguing - trying to learn the differences. Comparing tensile strength, hardness, etc, 7075 is stronger & lighter than 416. Does something like thermal expansion, ability to heat treat, or some other property make it more suitable?

No Aluminum regardless the grade is more suitable than steel.

[daz59]

Is all aluminum bad or just softer ones like 5xxx/6xxx? 2024 & 7075 are close in strength to a lot of the 3xx series stainless steel. Nowhere near something like 15-5 or 17-4 but i thought a lot of the stainless used here was stuff like 316 & 416. Why would a design that's ok for 416 SS fail if 7075 AL was used instead?

Not arguing - trying to learn the differences. Comparing tensile strength, hardness, etc, 7075 is stronger & lighter than 416. Does something like thermal expansion, ability to heat treat, or some other property make it more suitable?

Never had a problem with 6xxx aluminium as the tube in my suppressors, thats with 300win mags being fired through some of them.

[daz59]

is there a link to where you sell those cans by the hundreds ?+

pics is always nice , showing the guts even better

I dont sell them by the hundreds, have sold over 400 in 3 years now..... see my post in silencer talk, has a vew pictures.

Darren

Didn't see any internal pictures on there just threaded tubes.....

Have posted a picture of the baffles.

[Capt. Link.]

I've read many posts about aluminum .223 suppressors not being able to stand up to pressure, giving without warning, becoming a grenade, etc. Granted, they can't take the heat of semi or full auto fire, but has anyone ever personally witnessed one fail or have first hand knowledge (not heresay) of one failing on a bolt action? I know of two form 1's made out of Maglights that have been used extensively without any problems.

You should believe those posts and if you re-read my previous post on this thread I have seen aluminum,steel,and now titanium cans blow in person.The last was not full auto but the fourth shot out of a AR-15 type rifle with a form 1 build it was slow fire as per range rules.The barrel was 16" and the first coaxial chamber blew out not the blast chamber. Cost of can 500 plus 200 tax stamp and 6 months of waiting look on owners face priceless!

Any can made expands under pressure and then contracts.Aluminum flexes more than other materials and in time fails due to fatigue this is fact.The Ti used above was type 3 the wrong metal is just that wrong.I have yet to see pictures of failed cans after the design was determined to be flawed on this forum.I consulted on the titanium build and told the owner no way he was sort of pissed that I was there for it's debut or de-blow.

[daz59]

Aluminum fail will be due to heat, it doesnt like getting too hot. Have you seen any suppressors fail in bolt guns? 90% of the suppressors here in NZ are aluminium, there is a war going on NZ at the moment , who can build the lightest center fire suppressor, some places have got them down to 200grams or 7 ounces, and thats suited for a 30-06.

Here is a video of that said 200gram suppressor (not mine) with 200 fast rounds through it, he did it just to prove a point, that suppressor has had 1000 rounds through it total and the only reason it bulged was because of the heat. The rifle is somthing like a 6.5x55

[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_D12Xt9kaY&feature=plcp]][/url]

[CharlieBravo]

10.000 shots and still going strong according to this link in swedish:

http://www.stalon.nu/Nyheter.htm

Loosely translated:
The long term test of our Whisper silencer was finished this summer. Thanks to Kenneth Andersson of the hunter association of Umeå for helping in putting 10.000 rounds through the can. According to him it worked out very well.
These 10.000 shots have been put through without cleaning, the record being 560 shots in one night. Due to the powder deposits in the damper it now weighs 6.7 ounces more although function isn't affected.

[Capt. Link.]

Aluminum fail will be due to heat, it doesnt like getting too hot. Have you seen any suppressors fail in bolt guns? 90% of the suppressors here in NZ are aluminium, there is a war going on NZ at the moment , who can build the lightest center fire suppressor, some places have got them down to 200grams or 7 ounces, and thats suited for a 30-06.

Here is a video of that said 200gram suppressor (not mine) with 200 fast rounds through it, he did it just to prove a point, that suppressor has had 1000 rounds through it total and the only reason it bulged was because of the heat. The rifle is somthing like a 6.5x55

[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_D12Xt9kaY&feature=plcp]][/url]

Aluminum will fail due to fatigue heat lowers the strength.Failure is failure in a bolt gun or a semi auto.This has been discussed in length many times before.In the USA not a single manufacturer makes center-fire rifle tubes of it.A suppressor that bulges at 1000rnds with a low pressure round like the 6.5x55 helps illustrate my point.
This is a amateur forum for suppressor enthusiasts many of our members are novice machinists as well for those reasons and with consideration of US laws sturdy construction is recommended on these pages. On a engineering standpoint what is the safety factor of a 200gram suppressor rated for high pressure in aluminum or steel for that matter.How many rounds will the baffles last? Performance?
The cost vs the longevity alone makes aluminum center-fire not practical.My question is it worth injury for a lighter can for sport shooting.

[CharlieBravo]

I agree, it just doesn't seem to be strong enough in my eyes. However I found it remarkable how many nordic can makers choose to go with Al and people seem to be happy with the weight savings. Cost is about the same for stainless and aluminum cans.

What I can't figure out is why aluminum is so popular there.

I believe titanium would be a superior choice, of course the price would reflect that. I might do a titanium can in the future but I'd definitely need to do a few more ss cans first.
And it will be a reflex/telescopic model, that's another thing you see a lot more of in northern Europe. That's thing I actually get however, a shorter weapon is a lot easier to manipulate.
Sorry for the rambling.

[daz59]

Aluminum fail will be due to heat, it doesnt like getting too hot. Have you seen any suppressors fail in bolt guns? 90% of the suppressors here in NZ are aluminium, there is a war going on NZ at the moment , who can build the lightest center fire suppressor, some places have got them down to 200grams or 7 ounces, and thats suited for a 30-06.

Here is a video of that said 200gram suppressor (not mine) with 200 fast rounds through it, he did it just to prove a point, that suppressor has had 1000 rounds through it total and the only reason it bulged was because of the heat. The rifle is somthing like a 6.5x55

[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_D12Xt9kaY&feature=plcp]][/url]

Aluminum will fail due to fatigue heat lowers the strength.Failure is failure in a bolt gun or a semi auto.This has been discussed in length many times before.In the USA not a single manufacturer makes center-fire rifle tubes of it.A suppressor that bulges at 1000rnds with a low pressure round like the 6.5x55 helps illustrate my point.
This is a amateur forum for suppressor enthusiasts many of our members are novice machinists as well for those reasons and with consideration of US laws sturdy construction is recommended on these pages. On a engineering standpoint what is the safety factor of a 200gram suppressor rated for high pressure in aluminum or steel for that matter.How many rounds will the baffles last? Performance?
The cost vs the longevity alone makes aluminum center-fire not practical.My question is it worth injury for a lighter can for sport shooting.

The good thing about NZ is we can make what we want and put it to the test and make changes if need be, I live 5 min drive to a rifle range, if it doesnt work, I drive back to my workshop, make a change and back down to the range.

As I said before, I have sold over 400 center fire suppressors without one failing due to the tube, never had a tube bulge or open up. 6.5x55 low pressure? compared to? it doesnt matter what the chamber pressure is, the pressure and volume of the gasses coming out of the muzzle are what counts. thats why a 223suppressor is smaller than a 6.5x55 suppressor.

Everyone here in NZ seems to want lighter and lighter suppressors. the guy that makes the 200gram over barrel suppressors says he has tested them with his 7mm saum, over 1000 rounds.

If you do your research on what aluminium to use, how thick and so on, are confident on a lathe then there shouldnt be a problem, thats how I started.

Darren

[wolf]

Aluminum cant take the same numbers of fast shoots like other materials

but using a alu can on a sporter barrel that loses its accuracy after a few numbers of shoots , might explain why there is no problems in the Scandinavian country's

they simply do not overload the can with heat

the weapon would also be overloaded

If you know your riffle , you will know how many shoots you can fire before the accuracy suffers , with or without a can (if you can have one )

on a semi auto , and used for some fun fast shooting /mag dumps , and alu start to get problematic


look at this way
you dont take a street Porsche and drive a dirt road rally , if you do , dont blame the car for the failure

and if you try to win a street race with a fulllblooded rally car , dont blame the car if you lose

[daz59]

Aluminum cant take the same numbers of fast shoots like other materials

but using a alu can on a sporter barrel that loses its accuracy after a few numbers of shoots , might explain why there is no problems in the Scandinavian country's

they simply do not overload the can with heat

the weapon would also be overloaded

If you know your riffle , you will know how many shoots you can fire before the accuracy suffers , with or without a can (if you can have one )

on a semi auto , and used for some fun fast shooting /mag dumps , and alu start to get problematic


look at this way
you dont take a street Porsche and drive a dirt road rally , if you do , dont blame the car for the failure

and if you try to win a street race with a fulllblooded rally car , dont blame the car if you lose

Totally agree, my customers are told not to over heat the suppressors, if they cant hold onto it for two seconds then its too hot, that limits how fast they can fire through them. here in NZ we are not allowed full auto rifles, and unless you have a special licence we are limited to 7 shot in a center fire semi auto.

[Historian]

I've read many posts about aluminum .223 suppressors not being able to stand up to pressure, giving without warning, becoming a grenade, etc. Granted, they can't take the heat of semi or full auto fire, but has anyone ever personally witnessed one fail or have first hand knowledge (not heresay) of one failing on a bolt action? I know of two form 1's made out of Maglights that have been used extensively without any problems.

You should believe those posts and if you re-read my previous post on this thread I have seen aluminum,steel,and now titanium cans blow in person.The last was not full auto but the fourth shot out of a AR-15 type rifle with a form 1 build it was slow fire as per range rules.The barrel was 16" and the first coaxial chamber blew out not the blast chamber. Cost of can 500 plus 200 tax stamp and 6 months of waiting look on owners face priceless!

Any can made expands under pressure and then contracts.Aluminum flexes more than other materials and in time fails due to fatigue this is fact.The Ti used above was type 3 the wrong metal is just that wrong.I have yet to see pictures of failed cans after the design was determined to be flawed on this forum.I consulted on the titanium build and told the owner no way he was sort of pissed that I was there for it's debut or de-blow.

Captain, has anyone ever sleeved an aluminum can with a thin wall steel tube jacket?

To reduce Galvanic erosion due to effect of two dissimilar metals an epoxy coating would be applied to the
can's exterior prior to pressing on the SS sleeve. This thought arose out of remembrance of dual metal items used in past
developments for a super additivity strength effect.


Best.