New ideas and questions

Yes, it can be legal to make a silencer. For everything Form-1, from silencer designs that are easily made, to filing forms with the BATF, to 3D modeling. Remember, you must have an approved BATF Form-1 to make a silencer. All NFA laws apply.

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T1000
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New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

Hey guys i'm waiting on my form one and i have a few ideas for a build. I do have a large lath that I'm not very proficient with so I was thinking of a square tube build. I've only seen one done by a guy with and uzi. I like the idea of a square build i just don't want to end up with something that just doesn't work.

I've searched as much as i could for bad designs or ones that just aren't efficient at all but i can't seam to find anything. I would imagine that a large enough hollow tube would work but at what point is the line drawn for inefficiency?

My goals are for a can or a box about 9in long 1.5x1.5 or 2x2 for a 308 that can keep my hearing safe.


the blue line= bullet path
yellow=weld
red=Gas flow
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Capt. Link.
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by Capt. Link. »

Don't reinvent the wheel use 60 cone baffles and be done with it.Hire a machinist to do the work. I think a square tube would be a pain without gain.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
T1000
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

OK can you help me understand why a cone baffle is better. I would think the cone would work like a bullhorn to amplify the noise.
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Capt. Link.
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by Capt. Link. »

I hate to say this but are you in the right forum.We deal with the theory and construction of suppressors.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
T1000
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

Capt. Link. wrote:I hate to say this but are you in the right forum.We deal with the theory and construction of suppressors.
I'm sure you meant this as a jab at me to discourage me from thinking outside the box. I know i'm a new member and am a nobody here. I know my Ms Paint pictures are bad But your basically saying that if it doesn't look like a suppressor then it's not a suppressor.
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doubloon
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by doubloon »

T1000 wrote:OK can you help me understand why a cone baffle is better. I would think the cone would work like a bullhorn to amplify the noise.
From my limited understanding of the problem ...

The gas expanding in the tube is not technically "noise" until it leaves the tube and compresses air outside the tube to create the sound waves.

Inside the tube it is gas flow but not quite as simple as say gas flowing from a canister like a regulated propane tank or can of hair spray. The gas that is flowing through the tube is both moving and expanding at the same time until the burn is finished.and the residual pressure left inside the barrel from launching the projectile is fully relieved. So, it's not a steady flow, it's very dynamic.

As for the bullhorn effect, when you press your lips to the back of a bullhorn and squeak a noise then you are in effect allowing your mouth to act as the muzzle. In other words, you are generating sound into the bullhorn. Sound isn't picky about what direction it travels when unconstrained so the bullhorn focuses the sound waves and sends them down range thus increasing the effective loudness of your voice in the forward direction. But, if you pay attention, the sound behind the bullhorn is reduced.

But since we're talking gas flow and not "noise flow" inside the suppressor the inverted cone will serve to peel gas away from the main line of flow and thus delay it's exit from the tube at which point the sound is created. If you could keep ALL the gas from escaping the tube there wouldn't be any sound at all except for the projectile whispering through the air.

If you were to turn the cone around, with the big end facing the muzzle, you'd actually be concentrating the gas flow in much the same way a nozzle on the end of a fire hose lets firemen spray water hundreds more feet than they could with an uncapped hose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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ghostdog662
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by ghostdog662 »

Square cans are so fugly for one and that plate design is just, old school thinking.

The cone shape encourages the gas away from the bore really well and sounds the best because of that.

You have 6 months to become proficient with the lathe so hop to it. And by proficient I mean know how to do what you want to do, not make the components you will need. I became proficient with mine in 2 months when stamps were taking only 3 months after pending (remember those days anyone?).
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T1000
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

doubloon wrote:
T1000 wrote:OK can you help me understand why a cone baffle is better. I would think the cone would work like a bullhorn to amplify the noise.
From my limited understanding of the problem ...

The gas expanding in the tube is not technically "noise" until it leaves the tube and compresses air outside the tube to create the sound waves.

Inside the tube it is gas flow but not quite as simple as say gas flowing from a canister like a regulated propane tank or can of hair spray. The gas that is flowing through the tube is both moving and expanding at the same time until the burn is finished.and the residual pressure left inside the barrel from launching the projectile is fully relieved. So, it's not a steady flow, it's very dynamic.

As for the bullhorn effect, when you press your lips to the back of a bullhorn and squeak a noise then you are in effect allowing your mouth to act as the muzzle. In other words, you are generating sound into the bullhorn. Sound isn't picky about what direction it travels when unconstrained so the bullhorn focuses the sound waves and sends them down range thus increasing the effective loudness of your voice in the forward direction. But, if you pay attention, the sound behind the bullhorn is reduced.

But since we're talking gas flow and not "noise flow" inside the suppressor the inverted cone will serve to peel gas away from the main line of flow and thus delay it's exit from the tube at which point the sound is created. If you could keep ALL the gas from escaping the tube there wouldn't be any sound at all except for the projectile whispering through the air.

If you were to turn the cone around, with the big end facing the muzzle, you'd actually be concentrating the gas flow in much the same way a nozzle on the end of a fire hose lets firemen spray water hundreds more feet than they could with an uncapped hose.
Thank you for taking the time to type all this out. you sir are an asset and defiantly have a gift for explaining complicated things. I understand now about the cone baffles. I've always wanted a cone shaped brake or flash-hider on a rife like the one used on a DP28 or DPM and some other WWII rifles.

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T1000
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

ghostdog662 wrote:Square cans are so fugly for one and that plate design is just, old school thinking.

The cone shape encourages the gas away from the bore really well and sounds the best because of that.

You have 6 months to become proficient with the lathe so hop to it. And by proficient I mean know how to do what you want to do, not make the components you will need. I became proficient with mine in 2 months when stamps were taking only 3 months after pending (remember those days anyone?).

Hopefully I'm down to 1 or 2 months now(I sent it in in June).
I can do a lot on my 12x36 lathe I'm just worried about threading with it and making the cones.
The lathe I have is very old and worn and I haven't been able to find a manual for it yet. But I did spend the money to buy if so I probably should use it at least for this.

Is there any reason that you can see that the angled baffles in my drawing shouldn't work.
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Capt. Link.
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by Capt. Link. »

T1000 wrote:
Capt. Link. wrote:I hate to say this but are you in the right forum.We deal with the theory and construction of suppressors.
I'm sure you meant this as a jab at me to discourage me from thinking outside the box. I know i'm a new member and am a nobody here. I know my Ms Paint pictures are bad But your basically saying that if it doesn't look like a suppressor then it's not a suppressor.
I am one member that encourages all to think outside the box and I treat newbs the same as old war horses.Your drawing skills are what they are and that's fine.Its just that you are on this site and have no skill to build and have not thought about the basic principals of sound reduction.I was one of the first members here that wanted a suppressor that sounded like a duck and I stand by it."old joke"
All kidding around you do need to do some research and I and others will help you along.Thinking out side the box is how things are improved.Suppressors are best thought as pressure reducing devices.The gas laws do not work well in application because sound energy is a pulse in a gunshot and is not a steady state.CFD and other computer programs also do not work well.It takes a certain way of thought to develop a good baffle and that's the problem,unless you have a license you may not experiment so its best to use what dose work and not deviate much from that path.The sound equipment alone is in the 5 to 10k range just to measure a gunshot a suppressed shot is more critical in its measurement.My suggestion will save you much headache and now you need to buckle down to get your machining skills down.I can help you with that as well.I would be happy to ex-plane why a cone works but doubloon has started that, I can also add that the cone adds time for the gas to escape and that lets it cool which lowers its pressure.Would you like a list of books to get you started?
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
T1000
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Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:26 pm

Re: New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

Capt. Link. wrote:
T1000 wrote:
Capt. Link. wrote:I hate to say this but are you in the right forum.We deal with the theory and construction of suppressors.
I'm sure you meant this as a jab at me to discourage me from thinking outside the box. I know i'm a new member and am a nobody here. I know my Ms Paint pictures are bad But your basically saying that if it doesn't look like a suppressor then it's not a suppressor.
I am one member that encourages all to think outside the box and I treat newbs the same as old war horses.Your drawing skills are what they are and that's fine.Its just that you are on this site and have no skill to build and have not thought about the basic principals of sound reduction.I was one of the first members here that wanted a suppressor that sounded like a duck and I stand by it."old joke"
All kidding around you do need to do some research and I and others will help you along.Thinking out side the box is how things are improved.Suppressors are best thought as pressure reducing devices.The gas laws do not work well in application because sound energy is a pulse in a gunshot and is not a steady state.CFD and other computer programs also do not work well.It takes a certain way of thought to develop a good baffle and that's the problem,unless you have a license you may not experiment so its best to use what dose work and not deviate much from that path.The sound equipment alone is in the 5 to 10k range just to measure a gunshot a suppressed shot is more critical in its measurement.My suggestion will save you much headache and now you need to buckle down to get your machining skills down.I can help you with that as well.I would be happy to ex-plane why a cone works but doubloon has started that, I can also add that the cone adds time for the gas to escape and that lets it cool which lowers its pressure.Would you like a list of books to get you started?

Sir please do post a list of books and if possible on-line reading material especially on this 'basic principals of sound reduction'. From my meager understanding it's heat and pressure dissipation that has to be dealt with right?

I'm not completely with out skill
I'm a strong welder
I've built a few gun's (and i don't mean AR's)
I reload my own ammo.
I've built working Turbo systems for non turbo cars

I was very motivated by a build I saw here http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html? ... 4&t=419907
it's built with square tubing,mono core, mostly welded together and from the video he posted seams to get the job done.
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doubloon
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by doubloon »

I believe there are much better designs for flash hiders today but honestly I'm not familiar with that device.

Fortunately for you there are many more people here with a lot more knowledge than me and, based on my time reading posts here, Capt. Link. is in the upper echelons of that part of this society. So I would encourage you not to continue to bite the gnarly hand ... :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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Capt. Link.
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by Capt. Link. »

I'm sure you meant this as a jab at me to discourage me from thinking outside the box. I know i'm a new member and am a nobody here. I know my Ms Paint pictures are bad But your basically saying that if it doesn't look like a suppressor then it's not a suppressor.[/quote]
I am one member that encourages all to think outside the box and I treat newbs the same as old war horses.Your drawing skills are what they are and that's fine.Its just that you are on this site and have no skill to build and have not thought about the basic principals of sound reduction.I was one of the first members here that wanted a suppressor that sounded like a duck and I stand by it."old joke"
All kidding around you do need to do some research and I and others will help you along.Thinking out side the box is how things are improved.Suppressors are best thought as pressure reducing devices.The gas laws do not work well in application because sound energy is a pulse in a gunshot and is not a steady state.CFD and other computer programs also do not work well.It takes a certain way of thought to develop a good baffle and that's the problem,unless you have a license you may not experiment so its best to use what dose work and not deviate much from that path.The sound equipment alone is in the 5 to 10k range just to measure a gunshot a suppressed shot is more critical in its measurement.My suggestion will save you much headache and now you need to buckle down to get your machining skills down.I can help you with that as well.I would be happy to ex-plane why a cone works but doubloon has started that, I can also add that the cone adds time for the gas to escape and that lets it cool which lowers its pressure.Would you like a list of books to get you started?[/quote]


Sir please do post a list of books and if possible on-line reading material especially on this 'basic principals of sound reduction'. From my meager understanding it's heat and pressure dissipation that has to be dealt with right?

I'm not completely with out skill
I'm a strong welder
I've built a few gun's (and i don't mean AR's)
I reload my own ammo.
I've built working Turbo systems for non turbo cars

I was very motivated by a build I saw here http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html? ... 4&t=419907
it's built with square tubing,mono core, mostly welded together and from the video he posted seams to get the job done.[/quote]
You have skills that will help you along.I know of the build with the square tube it had a terrible ping to it.In general by cooling gases you lower the pressure,the lower the pressure the lower the sound energy.Now how you get there is the 25 dollar question.Volume alone will lower the pressure by letting the gases cool and expand.Now if you can delay the escape of theses gases a long time the the can is perceived as quiet. I will send you a pm with some books in the mean time read as many of the posts as you can.You will learn alot and you will get the duck joke.Find the completed builds compiled by Wicked a very fine welder as well.
The only reason after 243 years the government now wants to disarm you is they intend to do something you would shoot them for!
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
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doubloon
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by doubloon »

T1000 wrote:...
I was very motivated by a build I saw here http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html? ... 4&t=419907
it's built with square tubing,mono core, mostly welded together and from the video he posted seams to get the job done.
The same guy lives here too.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=61309

Video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eyS54AdG_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI This is Water DavidW
Complete Form 1s http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79895
T1000
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

Thanks for all your input guys I will have search for Wicked's build.

Love the avatar Capt. Link.
T1000
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

One more bad MS paint.

I previously had an idea in my head about how the blast form gun muzzle works. It's basically like another explosion that needs room to expand so what if we just provide that space in the form of a bubble followed my shrinking bubbles. but know I think I had it all backwards so how about the same thing in reverse a small bubble followed by increasingly bigger bubbles.

Image

I'm just trying to understand how these things work. I'll probably just end up building a stack of cones.
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Shift1
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by Shift1 »

T1000 wrote:Hey guys i'm waiting on my form one and i have a few ideas for a build. I do have a large lath that I'm not very proficient with so I was thinking of a square tube build. I've only seen one done by a guy with and uzi. I like the idea of a square build i just don't want to end up with something that just doesn't work.

I've searched as much as i could for bad designs or ones that just aren't efficient at all but i can't seam to find anything. I would imagine that a large enough hollow tube would work but at what point is the line drawn for inefficiency?

My goals are for a can or a box about 9in long 1.5x1.5 or 2x2 for a 308 that can keep my hearing safe.
the blue line= bullet path
yellow=weld
red=Gas flow
Image
First off there are a couple of books that you could look into....They are silencer theory and design books by Paulson. There are several rectangular tube designs available commercialy for pistol calibers that somewhat mimic the shape of the host frame and slide, Google search silencers patents..... there are more out there than you could dream of, be careful though.... patent infringment is no bueno. Not to crap on your idea but there is a huge difference between 9mm and .308 pressure signatures Most square tube has a welded seam and is a structural material, has a weak link in the seam and is very, very, heavy. You really want to use a seamless material for construction. I believe there was a comment in the build description about the square corners and pressure not getting along. Ultimately I believe you are following the wrong path for your intended project. Also..it is your $200, your time, and your liability if something goes horribly wrong. Safety to you and those around you is a no 1 priority so....be safe and let us know how you are doing
"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."- Samuel Adams
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T1000
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Re: New ideas and questions

Post by T1000 »

YES your absolutely right. I did see a few angled baffle design but they must have all been for handgun calibers. I plan to heed the good advice given here and stay on the beaten path using a proven design.
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