3rd party component manufacturing?

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Thu May 17, 2007 8:57 pm

I have some good can designs in my head, but neither the money nor the time to buy machines and make them myself. Is there an ATF ruling about having someone build a baffle stack for you and then assembling the actual can yourself?

Thanks,
CQ

cocoboots · Post by **cocoboots** » Fri May 18, 2007 12:53 am

the only way i think you could get away with it would to have the form 1 under a trust or corp. then have yourself and the other person be agents of the trust/corp.

if the form 1 is under your name and someone else makes a baffle then they are breaking the law because they are making an unauthorized NFA item.

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Fri May 18, 2007 8:15 am

That's what I figured... a related question: when does a baffle become a baffle? Could I have someone make an entire unitized baffle stack with NO bored hole for the bullet to pass through? Seems like that item would not be a silencer yet since it could not be used by anyone.

CQ

3101 · Post by **3101** » Fri May 18, 2007 8:39 am

an 80% baffle....good question

chevrofreak · Post by **chevrofreak** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:30 am

If you were there while the component was being made, wouldn't that make it a non-issue?

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Fri May 18, 2007 12:20 pm

If the answer is "an incomplete baffle is not a baffle" then someone could probably make a tidy profit selling 80-90% complete baffles or baffle stacks... since they'd just be paperweights, there would be no transfer fee and no SOT needed.

CQ

cocoboots · Post by **cocoboots** » Fri May 18, 2007 3:13 pm

you could make an entire suppressor without finishing the baffle and then let the end consumer get their form 1 and finish the baffle themselves.

3101 · Post by **3101** » Fri May 18, 2007 3:15 pm

RS or someone will chime in, but IIRC there is something prohibiting "silencer kits"....I think Sionics or Cobray or someone got cracked years ago for that....

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Fri May 18, 2007 3:21 pm

But were their kits complete, ie just needing assembly? Or did they need actual machine work?

CQ

stymie · Post by **stymie** » Fri May 18, 2007 4:28 pm

GaLEO wrote:RS or someone will chime in, but IIRC there is something prohibiting "silencer kits"....I think Sionics or Cobray or someone got cracked years ago for that....

Each silencer component is ruled by BATFE to be a silencer in & of itself!

stymie · Post by **stymie** » Fri May 18, 2007 4:35 pm

Conqueror wrote:But were their kits complete, ie just needing assembly? Or did they need actual machine work?

CQ

One supplier would advertise windchimes... errr, tubes of various lengths while another would provide baffle stacks. These were usually the same folks under different names. A common practice was to provide the front threaded SIONICS tube of actual length & a rear tube that was just a tad too long for MAC smgs. Since that tube isn't threaded, all someone would need is a pipe cutter. There was a varying & sometimes blatant disregard for the concept of "constructive/intent/possession".

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Fri May 18, 2007 7:17 pm

Ah, but they were selling finished baffles. I just want a machinist to be able to make me an "almost" complete baffle stack, legally - ie not complete enough to be used in a can.

CQ

Pgames · Post by **Pgames** » Mon May 21, 2007 2:12 am

................

green0 · Post by **green0** » Wed May 23, 2007 5:16 pm

that's a really interesting question...

Would it then be legal to sell K baffles complete minus a bore hole?

And tubing with threaded endcaps without holes?

It would seem so... there without holes nothing will silence anthing, and even if they wanted to shoot a round in the can without a bore hole, they would have to drill and tap a muzzle thread to permit it...

CritterTim · Post by **CritterTim** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:51 pm

On this line of thought, how would someone submit this question to the ATF for qualifacation? I ask because I've got an idea, unrelated to this thread, but dont know who to ask "Is this a machine gun or not?'..

Sorry, i dont mean to hijack this thread.. its my first post and don't know the etiquete.(sp)

dbooksta · Post by **dbooksta** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:03 am

I have gotten decent responses (i.e., within a week, and citing laws/regs) just emailing them at [email protected]

Mtdew · Post by **Mtdew** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:22 pm

How do you plan on finishing a 80% baffle w/o a lathe anyway??

And what about the tube... If it's threaded it's a silencer. If it's not threaded how do you plan to thread it (w/o a lathe)

Then what about the endcaps. They need threaded and bored (again how do you complete w/o a lathe)

Everything needs to be concentric and held to tolerences.. Unless you allready have the equipment to build one from scratch it's going to be hard to make a decent supressor...

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:32 pm

A unitized baffle stack or individual k-baffles could probably be drilled accurately with a decent drill press and a jig, which is cheap compared to even a chinese mini-lathe. Make the tube non-threaded like on a prodigy and the end user could get away with buying an 80% baffle stack and registering a tube off onlinemetals or something, if they already had a drill press.

Mtdew · Post by **Mtdew** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 pm

Conqueror wrote:A unitized baffle stack or individual k-baffles could probably be drilled accurately with a decent drill press and a jig, which is cheap compared to even a chinese mini-lathe. Make the tube non-threaded like on a prodigy and the end user could get away with buying an 80% baffle stack and registering a tube off onlinemetals or something, if they already had a drill press.

how are you going to thread the end of the monolithic baffle stack w/o the lathe (barrel end)

chevrofreak · Post by **chevrofreak** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:22 pm

Mtdew wrote:
Conqueror wrote:A unitized baffle stack or individual k-baffles could probably be drilled accurately with a decent drill press and a jig, which is cheap compared to even a chinese mini-lathe. Make the tube non-threaded like on a prodigy and the end user could get away with buying an 80% baffle stack and registering a tube off onlinemetals or something, if they already had a drill press.
how are you going to thread the end of the monolithic baffle stack w/o the lathe (barrel end)

Pipe threader

Mtdew · Post by **Mtdew** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:03 am

chevrofreak wrote:
Mtdew wrote:
Conqueror wrote:A unitized baffle stack or individual k-baffles could probably be drilled accurately with a decent drill press and a jig, which is cheap compared to even a chinese mini-lathe. Make the tube non-threaded like on a prodigy and the end user could get away with buying an 80% baffle stack and registering a tube off onlinemetals or something, if they already had a drill press.
how are you going to thread the end of the monolithic baffle stack w/o the lathe (barrel end)
Pipe threader

as long as you thread your barrel w/ it as well

better make the bore dia about 2" and the outside about 8"

at least then you won't hit your baffles

Conqueror · Post by **Conqueror** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:20 am

Mtdew wrote:how are you going to thread the end of the monolithic baffle stack w/o the lathe (barrel end)

Who says it couldn't come threaded? Make it a standard thread and hell, you could hold the tube on the stack with a nut from Lowe's.

Threading the barrel can be done by any gunsmith for $50ish.

Mtdew · Post by **Mtdew** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:46 pm

It will never fly... why?

because

If you go w/ a monolithic stack you still need to drill the bore. now thats assumong the atf allows everything else to be done(at minium thats one to two sets of internal and external threads. Plus all the cuts to create the sloped walls) *i doubt that ATF would let it even be completed that far*

Now here's the problem

Try to drill the bore through all the openings created by the various baffle cuts the entire length of the stack WITHOUT the bit walking off center.

hope you have someone w/ a EDM close

The K baffle idea will not work for other reasons.

At minium the tube needs threaded and both endcaps need threaded. (instant silencer in atf's eyes)

dbooksta · Post by **dbooksta** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:18 pm

Can you clarify why a threaded hollow tube is a silencer component? There are fake suppressors and other threaded muzzle accessories that fit this description that are sold as non-NFA devices.

Mtdew · Post by **Mtdew** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:08 pm

dbooksta wrote:Can you clarify why a threaded hollow tube is a silencer component? There are fake suppressors and other threaded muzzle accessories that fit this description that are sold as non-NFA devices.

Because w/ the endcaps it IS a silencer. It will drop the DB level even w/o any baffles... a empty tube is actually quite effective on a 22RF

The fake silencers have a small bore and only one threaded end... they are not a silencer tube