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 Post subject: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppressors?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:55 am 
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I Know this question has probably been asked and answered here before, but my searches found no answer...

I'm wanting to put together a suppressor setup for a ruger 10/22 takedown, but also fittable to other hosts.

I want the barrel to be short enough to keep things subsonic (thinking 5", any thoughts?).

I live in WA so I cannot SBR the gun.

So here is my train of thought, I take a short barrel and permanently (blind pin and weld) a 1.0-1.5 inch wide barrel extension bringing the barrel back to legal length. I make the suppressor fit within the barrel extension. I was thinking I would construct the suppressor with the front end cap fixed to the can so that it would not be possible to mount just the end cap to the barrel extension. I basically want to, without going SBR, build this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GbjXvH7xJA

The question is, would the barrel and extension be seen as another suppressor?

Bonus question: Can you make a removable segment to a suppressor (like tubeless cans) so that a suppressor could be used in shorter form when desired if the removed section could not be used as a suppressor itself?


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:10 am 
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Assuming all NFA laws apply.

If it's a solid wall extension I believe as soon as you put a cap on the barrel extension it will be considered a suppressor, even if the extension is permanent putting a cap on it would make it an integral.

I believe the only way to legally make a two piece tube is to serialize both tubes and pay a transfer on both since you are essentially making two suppressors that screw together.

If you make an extension like the SBX barrel below (click the link for a close-up) you're OK, but it's probably cheaper in the long run just to buy a SBX barrel if you can find one. I have an SBX, I like it well enough, what you save in length you lose in long range accuracy, 16" is still the optimal length for 22lr.

I had something similar to this done to a 9mm carbine, it works, it's legal but it took the guy over a year to do the work, he botched it, then "fixed" it but it's still overall a poor job of machining.

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp17 ... ics252.jpg

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:31 am 
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Wow Doubloon, A perfect and elegant solution that I cannot believe escaped me!

There is no need for the barrel extension to be solid so I'll just knock a whole ton of holes in or use perforated pipe, like a heat shield or the worlds most disproportionately large flash hider.

Still wondering whether I can remove a section of suppressor, the idea being that it would be nice to have a 12" suppressor for the 10/22 but be able to remove the rear few inches when I mount it on a pistol.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:48 am 
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mooface wrote:
Still wondering whether I can remove a section of suppressor, the idea being that it would be nice to have a 12" suppressor for the 10/22 but be able to remove the rear few inches when I mount it on a pistol.


No you can not because as soon as you remove one of the sections and make it so that it mounts on the pistol, you are left over with an extra silencer part, with no serial number and a shorter completed silencer now on your pistol.

ATF does not allow adjustable length silencers in the US.

Go with the SBX barrel that Doubloon posted and a reasonable length can and there is no need to shorten the can to make it work on a pistol.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:46 pm 
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What about the legality of two tubes that can be used separately with separate end caps as individual suppressors or screwed together to make a single longer suppressor?

Ignoring the assumed monumental engineering challenge of concentric tubes, baffles, etc. and the impracticality of course :D

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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:05 pm 
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doubloon wrote:
What about the legality of two tubes that can be used separately with separate end caps as individual suppressors or screwed together to make a single longer suppressor?

Ignoring the assumed monumental engineering challenge of concentric tubes, baffles, etc. and the impracticality of course :D


Two tubes = Two silencers.

Here is the big flaw.....as soon as you connect the 2 silencers to make one, you have created a third silencer(that is not registered) as you now have increased dramatically the performance of the two silencers used to create the third.

Follow? :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:04 pm 
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I think I follow, if I remove a section and the suppressor can still function the separate part becomes an item you cannot posses.

I definitely like Doubloon's solution and will go with that, it is simple and solves all the problems well enough, I will either end up with a longish suppressor if I mount it on a pistol, or I will make it shorter than the barrel extension, I do not want to go longer on the barrel as I want to stay subsonic (5" seems about right according to Ballistics By The Inch http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/ )

I'm guessing that the guys making can-less suppressors have to make sure they never assemble their suppressors minus a segment or legally they will have shortened their suppressor and would not ever be able to reassemble it with all of the sections, I assume destroying the extra section would have to be done right away as they would also then be in possession of illegal "spare parts". Maybe a bit extreme, but I believe in following all NFA laws to the letter, all the time.

Another bonus question....

Can you rearrange the order of parts within a suppressor? Say, put the spacers in a different order to tweak a design, assuming you always used the exact same parts, none left over, or added? Not something I plan on doing, just curious.

Second extra bonus question....

Could you legally mount two whole suppressors in line? two suppressors, two tax stamps. If the front of one mounts to the rear of the other would it be manufacturing a third suppressor or would you merely be using two suppressors on one gun? just a thought exercise as the probability of a baffle strike seems rather high, and the idea seems kind of silly.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:04 pm 
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mooface wrote:
I think I follow, if I remove a section and the suppressor can still function the separate part becomes an item you cannot posses.

I definitely like Doubloon's solution and will go with that, it is simple and solves all the problems well enough, I will either end up with a longish suppressor if I mount it on a pistol, or I will make it shorter than the barrel extension, I do not want to go longer on the barrel as I want to stay subsonic (5" seems about right according to Ballistics By The Inch http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/ )


Depends on your location as to whether or not it becomes supersonic or not, I am in North Carolina and anything over 4.4" goes supersonic for me.

mooface wrote:
I'm guessing that the guys making can-less suppressors have to make sure they never assemble their suppressors minus a segment or legally they will have shortened their suppressor and would not ever be able to reassemble it with all of the sections, I assume destroying the extra section would have to be done right away as they would also then be in possession of illegal "spare parts". Maybe a bit extreme, but I believe in following all NFA laws to the letter, all the time.


Who makes a can-less suppressor?

mooface wrote:
Another bonus question....

Can you rearrange the order of parts within a suppressor? Say, put the spacers in a different order to tweak a design, assuming you always used the exact same parts, none left over, or added? Not something I plan on doing, just curious


Yes, there is nothing saying you can't reorganize the internal parts, so long as you have no extra parts after assembly.

mooface wrote:
Second extra bonus question....

Could you legally mount two whole suppressors in line? two suppressors, two tax stamps. If the front of one mounts to the rear of the other would it be manufacturing a third suppressor or would you merely be using two suppressors on one gun? just a thought exercise as the probability of a baffle strike seems rather high, and the idea seems kind of silly.


No you can not. ATF would say one of the 2 things which are both illegal.....
1 - It creates a new silencer meaning you have a third silencer that is not registered.
2 - It enhances the performance of the first silencer but using the second silencer and therefore treated as if you extended the silencer regardless you used another silencer to achieve that extension.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:01 am 
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Bendersquint wrote:
....as soon as you connect the 2 silencers to make one, you have created a third silencer(that is not registered) ...

Follow? :wink:

:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:10 am 
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mooface wrote:
I do not want to go longer on the barrel as I want to stay subsonic (5" seems about right according to Ballistics By The Inch http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/ )


CCI Standard Velocity and Wolf Match Target both stay subsonic in my 16", 18" & 22" barrels. If the over all length with a can doesn't bother you it will save you money not having to replace the barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:28 am 
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Bendersquint wrote:

Who makes a can-less suppressor?




I guess tubeless is the correct term


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:50 am 
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mooface wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:

Who makes a can-less suppressor?




I guess tubeless is the correct term


Tubeless suppressors like you are thinking are not allowed in the United States, only in Europe.

So there is no concerns in that regards.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:20 am 
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Bendersquint wrote:

Tubeless suppressors like you are thinking are not allowed in the United States, only in Europe.

So there is no concerns in that regards.


That makes total sense, I wondered how ATF wrapped their head around those.

I haven't played with suppressors since the 70's and 80's so most of this is new to me, The last suppressor I worked with had stacked screen washers and wipes and I still lean towards relatively long, heavy suppressors and I really like integrals.

I would just build a permanent integral one for the 10/22 takedown (and may still in the end) but I'm concerned about 2 things:

what if I want to use it on another gun (not super likely).

If I build a short barrel with a permanently mounted outer can am I at risk of getting the baffle stack stuck?


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:23 am 
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mooface wrote:
what if I want to use it on another gun (not super likely).

If I build a short barrel with a permanently mounted outer can am I at risk of getting the baffle stack stuck?


If you want to use it on another gun buy another one, its that easy.

Yes, you are at risk of the baffles getting stuck, there are things you can do to mitigate that but the possibility is definitely there! We have dealt with alot of stuck baffle stacks!


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:06 am 
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Bendersquint, you are right. complicating a suppressor build to make it fit on multiple hosts is just that, complicated, especially since I don't even have plans to get a second host. And baffle stack stickage is a problem I just need to research and find what the many fine folks here have done to solve it in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel extension and suppressor insert, is it 2 suppress
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:32 am 
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mooface wrote:
Bendersquint, you are right. complicating a suppressor build to make it fit on multiple hosts is just that, complicated, especially since I don't even have plans to get a second host. And baffle stack stickage is a problem I just need to research and find what the many fine folks here have done to solve it in the past.


On an integrally suppressed non removable tube there isn't much that can be done. Either they stick or they don't.

I have only seen 1 or 2 integral builds on this site its not a popular Form1 build for this very reason.


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