Bullpup AR-10 lowers

[whiterussian1974]

I would dearly love for someone to manufacture a run of bullpup AR-10 lowers. AK-47s have bullpup kits, but I have never seen a bullpup lower for ARs. I would think that the uppers should still fit since the connections would match up. My only experience with ARs was in the USAF and as a Corrections Officer. Most commercial factory bullpups are for .223s. I wouldn't want to shoot anything smaller than 6.5 Grendal if my life depended upon it. There are so many AR-15 uppers in most every caliber and it seems a favorite of Militarty/LE with TONS of aftermarket parts. Colt even makes a lower with attachments for both 15 and 10-style uppers, but still no bullpup lowers.
Guess I'll have to buy a Keltec .308 RFB.
Hopefully enough people will request different manufactures like Colt, LaRue, etc that someone will fill the niche.

[rogerme]

I myself have never been a fan of having a centerfire chamber next to my head.

[Bendersquint]

How do you propose to deal with the buffer tube and assembly?

Thats what prevents it from being a bullpup rifle.

[rogerme]

Or juts buy he one that seems to be all the range now. http://www.israel-weapon.com/?catid={be ... e1e40d0422}

[O2HeN2]

How do you propose to deal with the buffer tube and assembly?

22LR only?

O2

[whiterussian1974]

How do you propose to deal with the buffer tube and assembly?

Thats what prevents it from being a bullpup rifle.

It would be far better if it used a toggle-lock action like the Luger P'08, but even with the buffer tube I could rest it above my shoulder with the recoil pad against my shoulder similar to the way soldiers are taught to hold the entire buttstock above their shoulder during room-clearing. This way the mag would be 2-4"s in front of my shirt and I could still perform tactical reloads.

I myself have never been a fan of having a centerfire chamber next to my head.

You must not shoot rifles or shotguns. Your face is directly behind the action and a catastrophic failure would destroy your right cheekbone and possibly a portion of your Maxilla and Dextro- Temporal Mandible. Several people have died or been severely wounded when firing Semi-auto pistols and the slide came off, flying backward into this portion of the face.

[Bendersquint]

How do you propose to deal with the buffer tube and assembly?

Thats what prevents it from being a bullpup rifle.

It would be far better if it used a toggle-lock action like the Luger P'08, but even with the buffer tube I could rest it above my shoulder with the recoil pad against my shoulder similar to the way soldiers are taught to hold the entire buttstock above their shoulder during room-clearing. This way the mag would be 2-4"s in front of my shirt and I could still perform tactical reloads.

What military teaches soldiers to keep the entire buttstock above the shoulder during CQB? Only thing I have seen anywhere along those lines is how the Russians do it but not to that extreme either.

Have you seen how high an AR10 would be if the buffer tube was over your shoulder? You would be sighting down the rail!

[whiterussian1974]

Or juts buy he one that seems to be all the range now. http://www.israel-weapon.com/?catid={be ... e1e40d0422}

The TAVOR only comes in .223.
I'd have bought a Steyr AUG long ago if I was comfortable shooting sub 6.5mm rounds to save my life. I've seen a few cases where drugged or highly motivated persons have taken up to 4 shots from a FMJ .223 and continued forward before dieing seconds later. Even a heart shot leaves 30seconds of mayhem for a perp. The 9mm FMJ has similar problems. Excellent mankiller, just not manstopper. The 12ga slug has 97% single-shot stop rating. everything else aspires to about 93% for the best designed pistol HPs. 6.5mm and up have similar 95%+ ratings, but they can reach out to 400m+. Many military FMJs are designed to break apart into nose and base to cause 2 separate and divergent would channels to maximize temperary cavitation.
In the end I just don't have confidence in the .223, but would love to swap uppers of 6.5 Grendel, 300 BLK, 458 SOCOM, 50 Beowolf.

[whiterussian1974]

What military teaches soldiers to keep the entire buttstock above the shoulder during CQB? Only thing I have seen anywhere along those lines is how the Russians do it but not to that extreme either.

Have you seen how high an AR10 would be if the buffer tube was over your shoulder? You would be sighting down the rail!

Either History or Discovery Channel showed USArmy doing this during MOUT (military operations urban terrain). I know several USMCs that shoot this style during room clearing also, but they probably learned this in the Police Academy. That's how we're trained. I don't agree with the technique, but it's one version that's taught.
As for down the rail: Yes, the telescopic sight would be mounted to the left side of the rail. The Germans used to mount them to the left of the action during WW 2 on Mauser Gewehr '98s.

[whiterussian1974]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The toe, (not the neck) of the buttstock rests above the shoulder.

[Bendersquint]

What military teaches soldiers to keep the entire buttstock above the shoulder during CQB? Only thing I have seen anywhere along those lines is how the Russians do it but not to that extreme either.

Have you seen how high an AR10 would be if the buffer tube was over your shoulder? You would be sighting down the rail!

Either History or Discovery Channel showed USArmy doing this during MOUT (military operations urban terrain). I know several USMCs that shoot this style during room clearing also, but they probably learned this in the Police Academy. That's how we're trained. I don't agree with the technique, but it's one version that's taught.
As for down the rail: Yes, the telescopic sight would be mounted to the left side of the rail. The Germans used to mount them to the left of the action during WW 2 on Mauser Gewehr '98s.

Thats not how the ARMY is trained for CQB, that sounds more like how the MP's would do it or a piss poor unit instructor.

Something similar is used when wearing NBC equipment.

Discovery/History channel has used actors in the past to represent military...you can see it in some videos with wrong insignia, unit patches etc... Like wikipedia, its a good source to start to learn about something but shouldn't be your go to.

[whiterussian1974]

Perhaps we just need a new swap-barrel bullpup main battle rifle. Is it the Ruger Dimension that has switch barrels? I know the Desert Tactical SRS uses swap barrels. I plan on buying their .375 Cheytac and 50BMG. But they only make bolt action. I wish that KelTec offered drop-in barrel conversions. That would solve all my fantasies.

Thats not how the ARMY is trained for CQB, that sounds more like how the MP's would do it or a piss poor unit instructor.

Something similar is used when wearing NBC equipment.

Yes, they were training in NBC suits and had tanks and simulated IEDs, Smoke grenades for chem-weapons, and insurgents with paintballs in the training excercise.

[Bendersquint]

Perhaps we just need a new swap-barrel bullpup main battle rifle. Is it the Ruger Dimension that has switch barrels? I know the Desert Tactical SRS uses swap barrels. I plan on buying their .375 Cheytac and 50BMG. But they only make bolt action. I wish that KelTec offered drop-in barrel conversions. That would solve all my fantasies.

Thats not how the ARMY is trained for CQB, that sounds more like how the MP's would do it or a piss poor unit instructor.

Something similar is used when wearing NBC equipment.

Yes, they were training in NBC suits and had tanks and simulated IEDs, Smoke grenades for chem-weapons, and insurgents with paintballs in the training excercise.

Ah, so you saw CQB in NBC gear.

That explains alot as that is not standard AT ALL.

[tsands974]

You mean to tell me I was the only one in full NBC gear running around Iraq? I thought that was SOP

All joking aside, I have to second Bender, the army (at least 11 and 18 series units) does not run CQB in that manner.

[-k-]

I don't think the bulpup lower is practical. If it was there would already be an AR-15 sized one. Bulpups are quite different to run. I would suggest you buy a bulpup in 5.56 and get some training with it. Decide if it fits your needs. Then hope the rumors that someday 6.8 or 6.5 conversions will be made for them comes true.

FMJ? You should look into modern barrier blind ammo for 5.56, I would choose it over larger caliber FMJ. It's also less velocity dependent, so you can get good terminal performance even out of shorter barrels.

One shot stop studies are junk science. There is no way to determine if the stop was physical or psychological, and psychological stops can't be relied on. Shot placment, you can't quantify it's effect with second or third hand accounts of shootings. Modern terminal ballistics is based on something that can be quantified, the damage a bullet does.