9X39MM Rifle... Possible?

[Ishootkittens]

Hey guys, my name is Cody. Im from a small town in Virginia and usually spend my time long range shooting. I've been past a mile plenty of times with my 300 Norma Rig, but now I have a different itch I need to scratch. I'd like to build a semi-automatic weapon. So...Here is my thought process, stop me when I am over my head because I will admit I know very little about semi-autos.

I'd like to build a small package, probably a pistol sized AR/AK. I am smaller shooter and would like something that I can conceal if needed. If I can't have a long barrel or a 308 sized bolt head, I figure I may want to go with a large bullet size. I'd like for this rig to be "effective" up to 300 yards. Less if necessary but more or less I'd like to have a CQB sized rifle with a CQB style round. Nothing against the 5.56 but it's just not for me, likewise with the 300blkout. Im a reloader and I am not afraid of doing something outside the box. So, I was researching large caliber chambering a and I came across the 9x39mm. Apparently Russians have been making this funny looking cartridge work for some time in the AK platform. Now I understand Al's don't care for suppressors due to bore alignment and crappy/odd threads. Also their piston system doesn't give you the "shhhh" most suppressed users desire. So I'll ask you guys who seem to be more knowledgeable about this sort of thing...

How can this be done in an AR-15 platform? I know of a few companies making lowers which take AK mags. Would this help me along, along with a custom barrel in 9mm, chambered in 9x39mm?

Basically 9mm bullets are CHEAP and range in size from 115 to 250 gr or so. Also the 7.62x39 case is also very cheap so I was hoping to combine the 2 to make a fun plinker and MAYBE run these suppressed with the 250gr+ pills. These are for when I can't make it to the range and need to do a bit of back yard work.

Was thinking a 8.5" barrel and using AK mags.If I can't have speed (by using subsonic ammo) why not go after large heavy bullets in order to make up for it. Also I'll say it again, these cartridges would be CHEAP for plinking. Even if they are a bit inaccurate (I know the twist rate will affect the different weights of bullets) and I could Taylor an accuracy load to use "in the field". I just need some advice or someone to tell me that this is stupid.

I also understand that the feed ramps in most AR type platforms do not care for the 39mm case. Anyway, Why hasn't this been attempted (I'm Gunna get alot of 458 socom references) and CAN it be done (pun intended)

Thanks in advance.
God bless

-cody

[quiettime]

It's doable but you're going to have to have dies made, or possibly modify 7.62 dies on a lathe. Heavy bullets are a must. The cheap 115 grain bullets shoot fine subsonic out of a 3" barrel anyway. You will have trouble doing much with them in a x39 case. It's just not made for that, too much capacity. You will also have to experiment with gas port size and powders to get the rifle to function with both super and sub ammo.

I will tell you the AR15 feed ramp can be modified with a dremel. I very gently massaged my 300 Blackout ramps because I only shoot subs. Just remember you can take more off a lot easier than you can put it back.

[jreinke]

There's a 11-page thread over on NFA Talk in the General Rifle Discussion section, titled Community 9x39 Think Box. That may answer some or all of your questions.

[John A.]

I'm not certain that AK mags are where it would be at because of the taper.

Remember, 7.62x39 is .311, 9mm is .356", meaning you'd need to neck up the case instead of necking it down, but you probably already know that.

Sounds like you're wanting to reinvent the 300 whisper/blackout/whatever you want to call it to an extent.

But I don't know how well you plan to shoot subs out to 300 yards. Most folks shooting subs tend to stick within 100 yards or so because they lose so much velocity past a point. And then switch to supersonic on out to about 300.

[T-Rex]

But I don't know how well you plan to shoot subs out to 300 yards.

The only thing I can think of, to understand the usage of this number, is that this is what the VSS Vintorez had listed as the maximum effective range (w/ iron sights). VERY optimistic for a subsonic projectile.

[Ishootkittens]

But I don't know how well you plan to shoot subs out to 300 yards.

The only thing I can think of, to understand the usage of this number, is that this is what the VSS Vintorez had listed as the maximum effective range (w/ iron sights). VERY optimistic for a subsonic projectile.

Never said anything about subsonic uses out to 300 yards. I just want the capability of the rifle (at supersonic speeds) to be effective out to 300. (Enough velocity and stability not to tumble, and enough energy to take down a human sized target with proper shot placement.) I'm a long range shooter and have plenty of ballistic calculators lying around. This cartridge SHOULD be able to manage that but it's not a matter or the cartridge, it's the twist rate that I worry about with such a wide range of bullet weight

Cody

[T-Rex]

Never said anything about subsonic uses out to 300 yards.

My apologies if you were offended, but I was referring to the cartridge your topic is about. So, maybe I missed something.
The 9x39 was developed for the VSS Vintorez and is a SS cartridge. This is what I was basing my reply on.

If you were referring to something like the 358Gremlin, well, that's different.
The 358Gremlin is a HV round.
The brass is also based off of 7.62x39 (6.5 Grendel bastard) and the case head is only .029" smaller, in OD, than a 308Win.
Plenty of info for it out there.

There's also the 9mm WinMag, but I haven't heard its name in quite a while, I'm not sure of ballistics out to 300, and now I'm just rambling.

[Ishootkittens]

Never said anything about subsonic uses out to 300 yards.

My apologies if you were offended, but I was referring to the cartridge your topic is about. So, maybe I missed something.
The 9x39 was developed for the VSS Vintorez and is a SS cartridge. This is what I was basing my reply on.

If you were referring to something like the 358Gremlin, well, that's different.
The 358Gremlin is a HV round.
The brass is also based off of 7.62x39 (6.5 Grendel bastard) and the case head is only .029" smaller, in OD, than a 308Win.
Plenty of info for it out there.

There's also the 9mm WinMag, but I haven't heard its name in quite a while, I'm not sure of ballistics out to 300, and now I'm just rambling.

No, no not offended at all! Just saying that I'm aware those subsonics aren't going to sputter out to 300 yards and I'm looking to shoot those in very small spaces. The 358 gremlin is about as close to what I had in mind as I can find. Alot of guys I have talked to just don't think it's a good idea and sometimes I just need to try something for the sake of argument but I can see the problems with the cartridge but that's the name of the game.

Thanks guys
Cody

[TROOPER]

Don't know if this is relevant or not, but when the 45-70 lost commercial support, Marlin stepped up with the "444 Marlin", which was basically just a greatly elongated 44 Mag with more powder. It behaved a lot like a 45-70, but they found that the 44 Mag bullets they were loading couldn't handle that velocity, and would consistently break-up upon impact.

I suspect a 9mm pushed too hard would do the same thing. Again, not sure if that's important if you're only shooting paper or steel, but for animal-type situations, that might be an important factor.

[jlwilliams]

I was in lust with the 9x39 round a few years back. It's cool but being completely foreign you are going to have trouble. There are no guns, no magazines no nothing in this country. You are looking at a completely self sufficient set up if you go that route. Ok, you hand load. That's fine, but you will be making or modifying magazines, buying custom dies, on and on and on. Reloading the ammo is the least of the obstacles.

The closest thing here is the .358 Gremlin. It was made to be as close as you can get to the 9x39. Still, it's a proprietary cartridge so you won't want to lose any of your brass. The good thing is that you can get it even if it's not cheap.

It sounds like what you are trying to do is more than a bit optimistic. You want this ballistic character in a round, and you want it to fit in a quasi concealed carry gun and you want to be able to lay down semi auto, box fed firepower. If you want a cool wildcat round to hunt with, cool. There are reasons why the vast majority of wildcat shooters use bolt actions. If you want the handling of an AR or AK pistol or SBR, cool. They come in the calibers they come in. If you build a gun based on a new round that you had custom dies made for, formed each and every piece of brass for and fabricated the magazines for you will be thousands and thousands of dollars into the project before you get your wonder shooter feeding reliably enough to take it into the field. Are you sure 300 blackout isn't going to cut it? How about 35 Remington?

I'm not trying to be negative, but I personally threw a ton of money down a series of rabbit holes over the decades. Personally, I look back and think what fun I could have had just going hunting or shooting instead of puttering around. It's your dick and your soap, so you do what you want. Just put a little thought into what you really want to have when you are done and what it's going to take to get there. Do you want to build a gun or do you want to have a gun? Do you want to shoot, or do you want to experiment? If you want to build and experiment, great. Do that. If you want to shoot and hunt, then don't build and experiment. If you want to shoot and hunt, shoot and hunt.

[Ishootkittens]

I was in lust with the 9x39 round a few years back. It's cool but being completely foreign you are going to have trouble. There are no guns, no magazines no nothing in this country. You are looking at a completely self sufficient set up if you go that route. Ok, you hand load. That's fine, but you will be making or modifying magazines, buying custom dies, on and on and on. Reloading the ammo is the least of the obstacles.

The closest thing here is the .358 Gremlin. It was made to be as close as you can get to the 9x39. Still, it's a proprietary cartridge so you won't want to lose any of your brass. The good thing is that you can get it even if it's not cheap.

It sounds like what you are trying to do is more than a bit optimistic. You want this ballistic character in a round, and you want it to fit in a quasi concealed carry gun and you want to be able to lay down semi auto, box fed firepower. If you want a cool wildcat round to hunt with, cool. There are reasons why the vast majority of wildcat shooters use bolt actions. If you want the handling of an AR or AK pistol or SBR, cool. They come in the calibers they come in. If you build a gun based on a new round that you had custom dies made for, formed each and every piece of brass for and fabricated the magazines for you will be thousands and thousands of dollars into the project before you get your wonder shooter feeding reliably enough to take it into the field. Are you sure 300 blackout isn't going to cut it? How about 35 Remington?

I'm not trying to be negative, but I personally threw a ton of money down a series of rabbit holes over the decades. Personally, I look back and think what fun I could have had just going hunting or shooting instead of puttering around. It's your dick and your soap, so you do what you want. Just put a little thought into what you really want to have when you are done and what it's going to take to get there. Do you want to build a gun or do you want to have a gun? Do you want to shoot, or do you want to experiment? If you want to build and experiment, great. Do that. If you want to shoot and hunt, then don't build and experiment. If you want to shoot and hunt, shoot and hunt.

If and when I hunt, I don't need a semi automatic ANYTHING. I am primarily a bolt action guy. I am primarily a long range hunter. I have hit steel past 2000 yds with my 300 Norma but I have no intent of taking game at those ranges. That being said, I don't think I'm asking for too much when I ask for a short-medium range weapon CAPABLE of taking medium (2 legged) game to 300 yards while alternatively being able to be loaded with 250-300gr bullets for subsonic use. Truth is I don't plan on ever hunting with this. The 358 grendel was actually exactly what I'm looking for but didn't know it. It's based off of a 6.5 grendel which is based from a 220 Russian which is based off of a 7.62x39. I don't see why magazine will be a huge problem. May experiment with 6.8 SPC mags or modified 6.5 grendel mags. If the 6.5 grendel has a .428" or so and I neck it up to .358 with a neck diameter of .385" or so then that leaves just enough shoulder to headspace on. In terms of shoulder to neck ratio it has a BETTER shoulder than the 300 blk with much more capacity to seat the heavier 358 bullets. Now I just have to ask whether I want to get super cheap 7.62 brass and size it once and fireform it and use LARGE rifle primers or use 6.5 brass and use small rifle primers? Experimenting is half the fun. Should be a good time tinkering with it and handloading for it.

Hand loads is the ONLY thing I shoot in my rifles. If I don't make it, I don't shoot it.

[jlwilliams]

I guess I misunderstood what you want to do. I thought you wanted a pdw type gun and want the ballistics of the 9x39 because you want to hunt with it. I also got the impression you want to reproduce the round and so on.

Have you shot the 300blk? I know you said it's "not for you" but it does fairly close to what you are describing. It's not a medium bore, but is that really going to be a huge factor in doing what you want to do? It's not the "perfect" cartridge, but it does pretty well from an AR and it's excellent in short barrels. Not quite as heavy a bullet as you describe, but when you describe the distances and intended targets, it seems like a reasonable fit.

[Ishootkittens]

I guess I misunderstood what you want to do. I thought you wanted a pdw type gun and want the ballistics of the 9x39 because you want to hunt with it. I also got the impression you want to reproduce the round and so on.

Have you shot the 300blk? I know you said it's "not for you" but it does fairly close to what you are describing. It's not a medium bore, but is that really going to be a huge factor in doing what you want to do? It's not the "perfect" cartridge, but it does pretty well from an AR and it's excellent in short barrels. Not quite as heavy a bullet as you describe, but when you describe the distances and intended targets, it seems like a reasonable fit.

I agree 100%. My best friend built one about 2 years ago and I really liked the idea. I know the extension would have to be modified slightly and feeding may be an issue at first, but I like the idea of using .357 and 38 special bullets because they are CHEAP. Not going to win any accuracy competitions with them but I thought about feeding some .356, .357, and .358 bullets through it when it's all said and done. Plinking and dicking off would be cheaper with 9mm fmj's, and a 180-200 great bullet would be a nice "stopper" round and finally a 250+ would be idea for subloads. My finished product will look ALOT like a big blackout.

It is true that I'd love to reinvent the wheel and come up with a bad ass wildcat in 35cal but it's been done and been called many things, I'm just trying to find one that works and that I could IMPROVE on what has already been done.

[T-Rex]

I think either a 338 Whisper or 358 Gremlin is going to be a closer win.
No, the projectiles are not as cheap, but the ballistics are far superior.
Even if you got a 147gr, 9mm, projectile to 2600fps, your drop is exponentially greater than a 200gr, 358cal round.

[Ishootkittens]

I think either a 338 Whisper or 358 Gremlin is going to be a closer win.
No, the projectiles are not as cheap, but the ballistics are far superior.
Even if you got a 147gr, 9mm, projectile to 2600fps, your drop is exponentially greater than a 200gr, 358cal round.

I agree with that but like I said, If I'm just dicking around then I won't care to use a 9mm Luger seating die to drop some .355(.356) pills in the case and pop a few "cheapos" off.

For serious shooting and practice a 358 bullet will DEF be the answer. Most of my serious load development will be subsonic 358 loads. I think the gremlin is definitely the answer..If I can find reliable magazines to use.

[jlwilliams]

9mm bullets may be more trouble than the cheapness is worth. IIRC the 358 gremlin is a .358 bore, so the .355 bullet is going to suck. There are some good coatings available on cast bullets that are night and day better than cast bullets were not so long ago. I know lots of guys use them in 300blk. I tried some before I moved (my loading stuff is still in storage, not cool) and what I tried was promising. You may find that a powder coated or plated cast bullet is the way to go for a lower cost plinking round.

Definitely going to want a brass catcher.

[Ishootkittens]

9mm bullets may be more trouble than the cheapness is worth. IIRC the 358 gremlin is a .358 bore, so the .355 bullet is going to suck. There are some good coatings available on cast bullets that are night and day better than cast bullets were not so long ago. I know lots of guys use them in 300blk. I tried some before I moved (my loading stuff is still in storage, not cool) and what I tried was promising. You may find that a powder coated or plated cast bullet is the way to go for a lower cost plinking round.

Definitely going to want a brass catcher.

7.62x39 brass isn't all that expensive. I pay 2.20$ a piece for my Norma brass then again I'm not shooting them semi auto either. 6.5 grendel brass isn't cheap but i already have a 358 neck sizer so I may try to work up a "false case" to fireform with 7.62 brass but I will have to use large rifle primers.

I cast bullets myself for my 45lc and 357 so I am no stranger to casting but I am so worried about getting lead fouling on my gas system. I have heard of guys using lead in AR platforms but I don't know how I feel about it yet. I'll have to look into these coatings. Thanks.

[jlwilliams]

There is a lot of coated bullet info on 300blk.com and other places around the web. It's amazing what is available now compared to even ten years ago.

The 9x39 round certainly looks like an optimum balance of a lot of features and the VSS is the stuff of gun porn. I, like you, looked for a way to put something close to that together. I ended up giving up and embracing the 300blk. It's not perfect, but it's a darned good combination of elements. It works well in the AR platform and that is huge. There is no better supported rifle in America. There are lots of factory loads out which is nice, but most reload it. That brings us to what may be it's greatest attribute. The array and availability of components. Factory brass? No problem, or you can form it from 223 easily enough. The availability of projectiles in .308 is nice too. You can run good old Match Kings or you can buy special bullets designed to expand at subsonic speed. Cheap blasting bullets, target bullets, hunting bullets, all no problem.

The 300blk isn't perfect, but it's the most practical option in its category. I think that a 35 Remington in a modern semi auto action with a barrel twist optimised for subsonic ammo would be the bees knees. That's not available as far as I know. Given unlimited money I could buy enough 300blk AR rifles and uppers and ammo to fill the trunk of my car (not a small car) within an hour's drive of my house if I wanted to. It's tough to beat that.

All of that aside, this thread got me googling the VSS. Last year there was an article about a small shop that was working on a US made VSS copy. Man, I hope they do it.....

[Ishootkittens]

There is a lot of coated bullet info on 300blk.com and other places around the web. It's amazing what is available now compared to even ten years ago.

The 9x39 round certainly looks like an optimum balance of a lot of features and the VSS is the stuff of gun porn. I, like you, looked for a way to put something close to that together. I ended up giving up and embracing the 300blk. It's not perfect, but it's a darned good combination of elements. It works well in the AR platform and that is huge. There is no better supported rifle in America. There are lots of factory loads out which is nice, but most reload it. That brings us to what may be it's greatest attribute. The array and availability of components. Factory brass? No problem, or you can form it from 223 easily enough. The availability of projectiles in .308 is nice too. You can run good old Match Kings or you can buy special bullets designed to expand at subsonic speed. Cheap blasting bullets, target bullets, hunting bullets, all no problem.

The 300blk isn't perfect, but it's the most practical option in its category. I think that a 35 Remington in a modern semi auto action with a barrel twist optimised for subsonic ammo would be the bees knees. That's not available as far as I know. Given unlimited money I could buy enough 300blk AR rifles and uppers and ammo to fill the trunk of my car (not a small car) within an hour's drive of my house if I wanted to. It's tough to beat that.

All of that aside, this thread got me googling the VSS. Last year there was an article about a small shop that was working on a US made VSS copy. Man, I hope they do it.....

That would be sweet. I also thought about a 45 super necked down to 358 and using grease gun magazines but after forming a few cases I realized that the OAL is wayyy to long for these mags.A 10mm would fit nicely in them though and with a 30 round capacity it would be mean. But I guess we will see what happens with my 358 build. Gunna form some today and go to the local pawn shop and try out different magazines (OAL, rib problems, capacity, etc)

[Ishootkittens]

There is a lot of coated bullet info on 300blk.com and other places around the web. It's amazing what is available now compared to even ten years ago.

The 9x39 round certainly looks like an optimum balance of a lot of features and the VSS is the stuff of gun porn. I, like you, looked for a way to put something close to that together. I ended up giving up and embracing the 300blk. It's not perfect, but it's a darned good combination of elements. It works well in the AR platform and that is huge. There is no better supported rifle in America. There are lots of factory loads out which is nice, but most reload it. That brings us to what may be it's greatest attribute. The array and availability of components. Factory brass? No problem, or you can form it from 223 easily enough. The availability of projectiles in .308 is nice too. You can run good old Match Kings or you can buy special bullets designed to expand at subsonic speed. Cheap blasting bullets, target bullets, hunting bullets, all no problem.

The 300blk isn't perfect, but it's the most practical option in its category. I think that a 35 Remington in a modern semi auto action with a barrel twist optimised for subsonic ammo would be the bees knees. That's not available as far as I know. Given unlimited money I could buy enough 300blk AR rifles and uppers and ammo to fill the trunk of my car (not a small car) within an hour's drive of my house if I wanted to. It's tough to beat that.

All of that aside, this thread got me googling the VSS. Last year there was an article about a small shop that was working on a US made VSS copy. Man, I hope they do it.....

That would be sweet. I also thought about a 45 super necked down to 358 and using grease gun magazines but after forming a few cases I realized that the OAL is wayyy to long for these mags.A 10mm would fit nicely in them though and with a 30 round capacity it would be mean. But I guess we will see what happens with my 358 build. Gunna form some today and go to the local pawn shop and try out different magazines (OAL, rib problems, capacity, etc)

https://goo.gl/photos/RCa9iWTjTxowdaX2A

See if the link works. That is with a 115 fmj .355 bullet.

[jlwilliams]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016 ... sed-rifle/

I have trouble posting links from my device so I hope this works. It's the article about the US made VSS. Pretty much vapor ware at this point, but a guy can dream.

One thing I remember from when I was considering a build is that the VSS is more like a VZ58 than like an AK. my first thought was to re barrel a PSL or an AK, but the VSS is a whole different animal. The Russians do make a 9x39 short rifle that is more or less on the Kalishnakov system, but the VSS is different.

[Ishootkittens]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016 ... sed-rifle/

I have trouble posting links from my device so I hope this works. It's the article about the US made VSS. Pretty much vapor ware at this point, but a guy can dream.

One thing I remember from when I was considering a build is that the VSS is more like a VZ58 than like an AK. my first thought was to re barrel a PSL or an AK, but the VSS is a whole different animal. The Russians do make a 9x39 short rifle that is more or less on the Kalishnakov system, but the VSS is different.

Thanks for the interesting read. Looks mean!!

Does my link work...Easiest sizing ever. Just up to 308 then up to 358...Done. lol

[jlwilliams]

Yes, your link works. Looks good.

[Ishootkittens]

Yes, your link works. Looks good.

Great, now I did that with a grendel case so I wonder If I did that with a 7.62 case and fire formed it, would it be better since it uses LARGE rifle primers. Driving such a heavy bullet I wonder if I would have pressure problems or if it would be beneficial

[jlwilliams]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50184

A thread from a few years ago about the 35 Remington with some good info about medium bores in general.