LWRC Maritime Testing

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Dantheman3660
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LWRC Maritime Testing

Post by Dantheman3660 »

This video is too cool, "Don't try this at Home"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMZX5WO1uSk
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Post by Tugnut »

I wonder if the POF could hack it as well?

Anyone ever tried that with an AR15?
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Post by jimmym40a2 »

kind of makes it hard to pick up your brass..............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEZJ_C4LwzA
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Post by ArevaloSOCOM »

That's impressive.

It's to know you can buy a nice upper like that.

HK did the same test and then didi the same thing to a Colt.

The colt got blown to pieces..............lol

Th guys literally shot the colt wearing body armor and a welding mask bc he knew it couldn't take it.

There's video on youtube.........
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Post by Poacher »

Here is the link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGwkHktk ... re=related

So is it water getting in the gas tube that makes it so dangerous?
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Post by PPGMD »

The Hk video is worthless, they used a shorty 416 and a longer Colt. They also gave the 416 much more time to drain. They bring the 416 up to his shoulder and then gives it a second, while the M4 is fired almost the moment it hits his shoulder.

Not only that, but it's like comparing a minivan to a sports car, the 416 is designed with extra drain holes. That's not to say that the M-16/M-4 series can't be used out of the water, you just have to give it a second to drain the barrel.

As far as the LWRC test, it's another meh test from these guys, just trying to follow on to the Hk test that made waves a few weeks ago. They are good at marketing, but this video gives the gun more then enough time to dry, many times it takes 3-5 seconds before he starts firing, I would bet a well built M-4 would survive this test, just like many other "tests" that I see run with the LWRC and other piston rifles.

Someone asked would POF survive it, most likely, as long as only water enters the barrel. Personally I wouldn't do this on purpose I would constantly be worried about some thing as stupid as a piece of seaweed getting caught in the barrel.
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Post by rudedog »

PPGMD wrote:The Hk video is worthless, they used a shorty 416 and a longer Colt. They also gave the 416 much more time to drain. They bring the 416 up to his shoulder and then gives it a second, while the M4 is fired almost the moment it hits his shoulder.
How then do you explain the submerged test with the 14.5" HK416? Wouldn't that invalidate your argument?
PPGMD wrote:Not only that, but it's like comparing a minivan to a sports car, the 416 is designed with extra drain holes.
You're kidding, right?!
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Post by ArevaloSOCOM »

rudedog wrote:
PPGMD wrote:The Hk video is worthless, they used a shorty 416 and a longer Colt. They also gave the 416 much more time to drain. They bring the 416 up to his shoulder and then gives it a second, while the M4 is fired almost the moment it hits his shoulder.
How then do you explain the submerged test with the 14.5" HK416? Wouldn't that invalidate your argument?

+1

It's completely underwater
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Post by PPGMD »

Not really if they have the M4 as much time to drain as they gave the 10" 416 in the first test it would pass with flying colors. But this video is being made by a competitive company, they set the conditions of the test, finding situations (realistic or not is up to the end user to decide) where their weapon will function fine, and the test competitor will not. They still operated within the test parameters even if it was errors on the side of caution to make one weapon pass, and errors on the other side of the test parameters to make the one weapon fail.
rudedog wrote:You're kidding, right?!
Actually no, Hk is known for supplying Special Units with weapons that meet their specific needs, and making PR for it. The Mk23 is a great example it had almost no military sales outside evaluation guns, but because of good marketing to video game, and movie companies the Hk has become the go to pistols when you want to feature Special Forces units in games and movies. People follow trends whether they make sense or not. Why do you think that gun companies practically give their new guns away to police departments when a new model is first released?

The 416 is an example of what I pointed at above, it was designed with Larry Vickers as weapon for special forces units that have specific needs, namely short rifles, and function well suppressed, and with larger amounts of continuous fully automatic fire. In the design was extra tolerances to prevent slam firing, cleaner operation with the piston design, and a self metering piston so the user doesn't have to F--k with anything when they attach a can.

Since the release of the 416, Hk has been pushing for it's adoption across the entire Army using the media as it's ally. It's one of the few guns that I have seen three times on Future Weapons, it's featured on tons of other LE/MIL gun porn rags, has had more Army Times articles then most people can count, along with other measures including lobbying Congress.
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Post by aarudd »

The requeirment for SOCOM under the procedures step 5 of test A and procedure 4 of test B alows the gun to drain for 2 seconds maxium.

I think colt M4 could do ok with a 2 seconds to drain. HK sould have test 2 M4's and gave the second M4 the 2 seconds drain time.
What impressive me about the HK 416 had no failure while submered, and no barrel burst.

LWRC should do a 1 shot submered test, I would like see if they would get a barrel burst while submered.
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Post by cqbdoc10 »

...this video gives the gun more then enough time to dry, many times it takes 3-5 seconds before he starts firing...
Yes, a few times he did wait 3-5 seconds to fire.

But specifically at 1:29 he fired within 1 second. Then at 2:40 forward he fired the rifle immediately when emerging from the water.
Someone asked would POF survive it, most likely, as long as only water enters the barrel.
Actually, water is EXACTLY what causes a barrel to explode. Whenever emerging from a state where water is within the chamber of the weapon, it MUST be drained prior to firing the weapon. The water acts as an obstruction, just like "seaweed" might (if it were packed in and dense enough, which it wouldn't be), which would consequently cause the "exploding barrel phenomenon".

When coming out of the water with a normal M4, you NEED to pull the charging handle to the rear slightly, allow the water to drain, return the charging handle and then use the forward assist to ensure that the bolt is locked.

It takes a normal M4 4-5 seconds to drain completely if there is not a round in the chamber while draining, and 10-12 seconds for complete functional drainage if the chamber is loaded.

So, in effect, an M4 COULD NOT DO THE SAME THING THAT THE HK416 OR LWRC HAVE DEMONSTRATED IN EITHER OF THESE TESTS. Both rifles have specific modification that allow them to function in such a manner. LWRC even states that the rifle used in this test had been specially modified to function in the capacity. In NO WAY POSSIBLE could an M4 drain for 2 seconds and then fire a round without significant malfunction. These numbers actually come directly from the Navy safety center, after a few standard M4s were destroyed attempting to perform this very test in 1996 and 2002.

Soooooooo, anyone that thinks an M4 would survive this test has NO IDEA what they are talking about.
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Post by PPGMD »

I didn't see any mention of the LWRC being modified (figured it was a normal LWRC which uses normal barrels/extension, and BCGs), I'll take your word for it. So like the 416 it is changed/designed for a specific task. So once again proving my point a video made for a specific task, marketing.

I am sure FN/Colt could make the same changes to the M16/M4 platform, but the people that need these changes also generally get a larger selection of weapons to suit that missions that they are being deployed on.
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Post by Rob »

Holy Damn!! :shock:


Why haven't I seen these videos before?


Either way, I have never cared about a piston gun before now. The Leitner Wise video makes me want one.

Also, the argument that HK 'rigged' the test by allowing the water to drain longer from their rifle stopped 'holding water' when the guy fired the HK while it was mostly submerged. Additionally, the 416 that he fired mostly submerged had a longer barrel. That should also shoot down the barrel length argument.


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Post by PPGMD »

I don't see anyone claiming they rigged the test, they set the test parameters so they would "win" the test. As I mentioned earlier it's like comparing a sports car to a mini van, sure Hk "wins" one test it wins, but what about on other tests, like price, or accuracy?

As far as the LWRC video now that I found out that it's modified it falls into the same cup of tea, it's funny that they seem to always ride the coat tails of the Hk marketing team, almost always copying what they do.

Why don't they do real testing for the public, like endurance testing. Checking things like total fouling, temperatures, and how long it takes before the rifle fails. Also lets see how it does in something similar to the Army's Extreme Dust Chamber. I want to see one of the piston gun companies release something unique, like putting out hard numbers (comparing it with an unnamed DI rifle), rather then putting out flashy videos of tests that prove little because that is what Hk is doing.
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Post by Rob »

The rigged test thing came from some of the comical comments from the window lickers on the YouTube site.

I don't follow this stuff enough to know whether or not HK or Leitner Wise modifies their guns in order to perform under these conditions. If they do, it is still impressive because of what they seem to be capable of. Making a direct comparison to the Colt rifle is still valid because they are all competing for government and law enforcement sales. If Colt wants to stay competitive, they should compete.

I agree with you in wanting to see more real world, and best of all, objective or independent testing.


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Post by mk23 »

So, how was the rifle modified for the water test.
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Post by PPGMD »

Rob wrote:If Colt wants to stay competitive, they should compete.
Do you honestly think that Colt doesn't have an OTB capable M4/M16 type rifle? I would bet that if they don't have a few in their gray room, they at least have a design hidden away somewhere.
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Post by Rob »

Like I said, I don't really stay current on the world of combat weapons, hence I said that I had not seen those videos. You may well be right about Colt. However, even though I don't pay attention to the state of the art, I can watch the news to see which weapons are mentioned whenever my local congressman starts badmouthing the M4. If Colt has some wonderweapon, it is kept under tight wraps. SCAR and HK 416 have the benefit of being routinely mentioned on local and national news as competitors for a possible replacement.


Nothing that I have said though means that I think that the M4/M16/AR is a bad or inferior weapon. I honestly don't know how much of piston vs. DI is hype vs. substance. Likewise I don't get into the caliber arguments. I don't own any piston ARs at present. If I do ever buy one, it will be a toy like the rest of my guns. This is all just a hobby for me anyway, I don't get too concerned by any of it.



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