9MM AR MASTER THREAD

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Gato
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9MM AR MASTER THREAD

Post by Gato »

I am planning on building a 9MM upper for my SBR. My question is: What type of magazines do the 9MM conversions use.

What is crap? What is top of the line? Which ones can be modified?

Specs on the rifle in case it matters:
Lower - Eagle Arms
Stock - Magpul CTR Mil-Spec
Trigger Group - Mil-Spec hammer, trigger, etc.

I understand I'll need a new buffer, bolt and bolt carrier but have heard I may need a new hammer.

Any input would be appreciated.
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Twinsen
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Post by Twinsen »

There is a gigantic thread about this on AR-15.com in the rimfire/pistol caliber section titled something like "9mm AR FAQ". There are so many things you'd need to know, it's ridiculous. They have an FAQ, but it is old, and there are many more products out there now than there were before. So you'd have to read the entire thing, and still not learn it all.
Bam: http://www.ar15.com/FORUMS/topic.html?b ... 261&page=1
Go halfway down the page or so until you find a decent start for the FAQ.


Here's what universally true information I could find out of it:
-You need the buffer for 9mm if you have a CAR stock, check with somebody else if you need one for a full rifle stock, because I've heard both ways.
-You need either a new 9mm hammer, or a bolt that is ramped (cut at an angle on the front underside) for best performance. A regular hammer with the chunk taken out of the top (non-DPMS style) that has a "PacMan" looking front edge will not work without a ramped bolt, and will cause massive horrible jams that require tools. A DPMS totally rounded hammer will work with a non-ramped bolt, but there will be triggerslap like a cheap AK. Some people are ok with that on a semi-auto.
-You need a "magazine block," or you need to weld a lot of material onto an Uzi mag to make it fit into your AR-15 magwell.
-There are two types of magazines: Uzi mags, and Colt pattern mags. There are at least 3 brands of Colt pattern mags: Colt, CProducts, ProMag. I think I've seen 10, 20, 25, 30, and 32 round mags (32 rounders are Uzi).
-Uzi magazines and modified Uzi magazines will not engage your Last Round Bolt Hold Open. Some are modified for use with different types of magazine blocks.
-Uzi mags all require some sort of follower modification in some brands of AR due to the feed angle being a little bit off.
-Some magazine blocks do not allow you to use your AR magazine release to release the 9mm magazines.
-There are magazine blocks that slide in the bottom of your magwell, some that slide in the top, and some that are permanently placed in your magwell.

Here's the setup I see most, and the setup that I went with.
I see most now:
-VM HyTech magazine block
-does not engage bolt hold
-is held in place by the AR mag release, so it has its own mag release on the left side of the gun
-uses modified Uzi mags
-Uzi mags are cheap
-All the parts come out for quick swap back to rifle calibers

What I did:
-RRA Mag block
-engages bolt hold
-magazines new manufacture
-uses AR mag release to release the 9mm mags
-requires removal of AR BHO to remove or install into your AR, so it is NOT quick change over
-whole setup costs less than the above's magblock alone with 5 magazines included


Don't use a CProducts magblock, they don't work. Period. Their mags work great for me though.

Good luck on your build.
Last edited by Twinsen on Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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monkeytoys
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Post by monkeytoys »

I was planning to use a hahn dedicated mag block. I've read they are really good.

I would love to know more about the cproducts block though. that is a really good deal if it works like it should.

i understood that you have to use a spacer with the regular stock.

Colt mags are supposed to be the best with metal follower also. cproducts is supposed to be making the new colt mags.

uzi mags require cutting out the mag release unless you use the uzi mag adapter. it looks kinda ugly to me though.

promags makes polymer mags. i've read 50/50 reviews on them. some like them, some hate them. they ship with bushmasters i believe.

since you don't have an olympic lower, that knocks them out. they make lowers that use glock mags and lowers that us modified uzi?/sten? mags.
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Post by Twinsen »

monkeytoys wrote:I was planning to use a hahn dedicated mag block. I've read they are really good.

I would love to know more about the cproducts block though. that is a really good deal if it works like it should.

i understood that you have to use a spacer with the regular stock.

Colt mags are supposed to be the best with metal follower also. cproducts is supposed to be making the new colt mags.

uzi mags require cutting out the mag release unless you use the uzi mag adapter. it looks kinda ugly to me though.

promags makes polymer mags. i've read 50/50 reviews on them. some like them, some hate them. they ship with bushmasters i believe.

since you don't have an olympic lower, that knocks them out. they make lowers that use glock mags and lowers that us modified uzi?/sten? mags.
I promise to be the first to let everybody know when I get mine up and running. Don't hold your breath though, it's gonna be a while.
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rob_s
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Post by rob_s »

Twinsen wrote:There is a gigantic thread about this on AR-15.com in the rimfire/pistol caliber section titled something like "9mm AR FAQ". There are so many things you'd need to know, it's ridiculous. They have an FAQ, but it is old, and there are many more products out there now than there were before. So you'd have to read the entire thing, and still not learn it all.
Bam: http://www.ar15.com/FORUMS/topic.html?b ... 261&page=1
Go halfway down the page or so until you find a decent start for the FAQ.


Here's what universally true information I could find out of it:
-You need the buffer for 9mm if you have a CAR stock, check with somebody else if you need one for a full rifle stock, because I've heard both ways.
-You need either a new 9mm hammer, or a bolt that is ramped (cut at an angle on the front underside) for best performance. A regular hammer with the chunk taken out of the top (non-DPMS style) that has a "PacMan" looking front edge will not work without a ramped bolt, and will cause massive horrible jams that require tools. A DPMS totally rounded hammer will work with a non-ramped bolt, but there will be triggerslap like a cheap AK. Some people are ok with that on a semi-auto.
-You need a "magazine block," or you need to weld a lot of material onto an Uzi mag to make it fit into your AR-15 magwell.
-There are two types of magazines: Uzi mags, and Colt pattern mags. There are at least 3 brands of Colt pattern mags: Colt, CProducts, ProMag. I think I've seen 10, 20, 25, 30, and 32 round mags (32 rounders are Uzi).
-Uzi magazines and modified Uzi magazines will not engage your Last Round Bolt Hold Open. Some are modified for use with different types of magazine blocks.
-Uzi mags all require some sort of follower modification in some brands of AR due to the feed angle being a little bit off.
-Some magazine blocks do not allow you to use your AR magazine release to release the 9mm magazines.
-There are magazine blocks that slide in the bottom of your magwell, some that slide in the top, and some that are permanently placed in your magwell.
This is a great starter, and tack worthy. Lucky for you, I have my tacks handy!
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rob_s
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Post by rob_s »

As to the Cproducts kit...

I dislike the company, the man, and the products and have had bad luck with virtually every Cproducts magazine I have laid hands on.

My great preference is for the Hahn Top-Load block, specifically the top load with last round bolt hold open
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Twinsen
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Post by Twinsen »

I got the feeling that they made unreliable stuff. The fact that Colt is supposedly using their products (if that is true) as Factory Colt stuff is what made me buy their stuff.

Also, I haven't heard good things about ProMag, so I was up a creek and chose the one with less bad reputation.

If my CProducts magwell does not perform well, I will be getting the Hahn block that you prefer. $$$ won me over, and the fact that I was going to be buying CProducts magazines anyway.
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chrismartin
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Post by chrismartin »

For those not interested in CProducts magazines, I would suggest Colt.
Keep in mind, the NEW Colt magazines are made by CProducts, so you need the original OEM.

ORIGINAL Colt magazines were made by Metalform and can still be purchased direct:

viewtopic.php?t=27944&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

ETA:

A lot of good troubleshooting info here. Most problems I have seen are extractor or magazine related:

viewtopic.php?t=27944&postdays=0&postorder=asc
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Post by redtazdog »

chrismartin wrote:For those not interested in CProducts magazines, I would suggest Colt.
Keep in mind, the NEW Colt magazines are made by CProducts, so you need the original OEM.

ORIGINAL Colt magazines were made by Metalform and can still be purchased direct:

viewtopic.php?t=27944&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

ETA:

A lot of good troubleshooting info here. Most problems I have seen are extractor or magazine related:

viewtopic.php?t=27944&postdays=0&postorder=asc
The Ups santa dropped 10 more CP 9mm mags on my door step :)
I loaded 1 up and gave it a trial run and all is good.
I think CProducts changed the way they sit in the mag block, I noticed
this batch of mags sit lower away from the bolt like my older colt mags.
I have heard that CP had to make changes to get colt sales.
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Post by YugoRPK »

I have 6 C products mags and dont have any problems with any of them but the block in my rock river is set just for them. Has anyone tried the Hahn block that uses STEN mags like Olympic Arms uses? I'm afraid of anything that is related to anything Olympic ever made but I like the STEN mag block release lever on the bottom.
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Post by nwcid »

Well I know this is a bit of an older post but here goes what I know.

There are 2 main styles of 9mm AR. The Colt style and the Olympic Arms style.

With the Colt it uses drop in (or semi fixed) mag blocks with the ejector mounted in the block. The mags sit in the "middle" of the mag well. The main style of mags is the Colt factory (or copies). The second style is modified Uzi mags. There is another block that uses stock Uzi mags but has a "paddle" style mag release vs stock AR mag release.

The OA style has the ejector mounted in the upper so requires 3 extra holes in the upper receiver. With the OA system there are 2 main mag systems for stock lowers. With the OA system the mags sit in the front of the mag well. In the 9mm guns OA welds a "bracket" to the back of Sten mags to fit the mag well and mag catch. In .40, .45 and 10mm guns they use .45 cal Uzi mags which are now very hard and expensive to come by. The other method is to use a mag block that fits in the rear of the mag well and is held in by pressure from the upper and the mag catch. With the block the mag release is now a "paddle" style release.

OA also makes a Glock lower that uses all standard 9m/40 Glock mags. With this lower it is machined as a Glock mag lower and all controls function normal.

I do not own a Colt style but I do have pics of some of the OA stuff. If you would like I can post some detailed pics I just didnt want to over fill the thread if no one wanted to see.


.
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Post by Reed503 »

Has anyone had any experience with the OA 9mm lower that takes the glock mags? I was thinking about one of these.
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Post by rob_s »

Reed503 wrote:Has anyone had any experience with the OA 9mm lower that takes the glock mags? I was thinking about one of these.
We have a match shooter that runs one, and up until last week I had never seen it malfunction. He started getting doubles, and then it just went full auto. Turns out one of the pins in the lower broke. 9mm is tough on lower parts so I wasn't surprised. It's also an Olympic, so I'm sure the pins and parts aren't of the highest quality to begin with.

I suggested he replace the pin(s) with known quality parts and actually suggested he install a set of KNS pins, which reminded me to order a set of KNS for my Anvil/RRA 9mm.
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Post by Doink67 »

which pin, i may need to "accidentally" break one
JK :D
what do people have to say about the dedicated RRA's
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Reed503
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Post by Reed503 »

rob_s wrote:
Reed503 wrote:Has anyone had any experience with the OA 9mm lower that takes the glock mags? I was thinking about one of these.
We have a match shooter that runs one, and up until last week I had never seen it malfunction. He started getting doubles, and then it just went full auto. Turns out one of the pins in the lower broke. 9mm is tough on lower parts so I wasn't surprised. It's also an Olympic, so I'm sure the pins and parts aren't of the highest quality to begin with.

I suggested he replace the pin(s) with known quality parts and actually suggested he install a set of KNS pins, which reminded me to order a set of KNS for my Anvil/RRA 9mm.
Thanks for the info, I really like the idea of using the glock mags.

Mabey they would send me a broken one from the factory... :lol:
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Post by nwcid »

I am about 2k into mine with no problems. About 1500 are with this upper and the rest was with the standard upper. No problems from mine yet. I love it.

I have a 16" SRT integral upper on mine. It does get super dirty but that is part of running suppressed. I am running 115gr FMJ with 3.5 gr of Tightgroup.

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Post by mo71 »

Does RRA 9mm uppers work with Olympic Arms lowers w/glock magazine. I want to purchase a 9mm pistol upper to SBR it. Love the 9mm suppressed setup.
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Post by nwcid »

mo71 wrote:Does RRA 9mm uppers work with Olympic Arms lowers w/glock magazine. I want to purchase a 9mm pistol upper to SBR it. Love the 9mm suppressed setup.
They do NOT. There are 2 different systems that feed and eject from 2 different places. Along with the fact that OA does not sell just the lower for these guns.

Why not just SBR the OA. OA does sell pistol barrels too.

OA feeds from the front of the mag well (on all their mag systems) vs center for Colt style (what RRA sells).

Image

The ejector on the OA is in the upper vs having it in the mag block.

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Post by YugoRPK »

Dont wast your money on the C products mag well adapter. Ive got one I'm returning with a broken ejector today that had 1/2 a mag through it.
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Post by redtazdog »

YugoRPK wrote:Dont wast your money on the C products mag well adapter. Ive got one I'm returning with a broken ejector today that had 1/2 a mag through it.
.
I have heard rumors of breaking ejectors with these blocks.
Thanks for the warrning
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Twinsen
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Post by Twinsen »

My C Products magwell broke in two places by me taking it out of the bag. It is paper thin and shitty weak plastic. It literally broke by me picking it up. I got her in there, and with the upper in place, the mags stay locked in perfectly.

Too bad they tilt 10 degrees front to back and will only load 115grainers. I'm returning this thing.
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Post by TVone »

I purchased a C Products mag block also, and it held together.

The ejector is very loose causing multiple failures to eject the round out of the loading area.

Bought a Hahn's bottom loading block and all my troubles went away. C Products 9mm mags worked fine. I did have to file down a bad weld on one.

Sold the block as-is to someone who was willing to tinker. I did do a full disclosure of the problems I had.
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Post by rob_s »

I posted a photo comparison of my two 9mm AR carbines on my site, click here.
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Post by DEVIL DOC »

very intersting.
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kalikraven
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Post by kalikraven »

Good review, I only wish you wrote it a year ago...
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