Smith or Colt

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bg556
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by bg556 »

{"arguable"? Aren't differences either there, or not there? I have brown hair, my brother has red. is that somehow "arguable"? I don't understand this statement.}

And in reference to the above statement, I say arguable as I still have yet to hear what the difference is between the two.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by bg556 »

It is pretty obvious we will not see eye to eye on this. I won't convince you, you won't convince me. Is the Colt that much better? According to you yes, according to me no, the reality is those are our opinions. We argue on on Mil-spec though we both appear to say the same thing about it. So unless either one of us can back our claims with clear evidence, not opinion, we are at a stalemate. Good debate.
Happy shooting.

And to the OP, congrats on the rifle.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by rob_s »

bg556 wrote:It is pretty obvious we will not see eye to eye on this. I won't convince you, you won't convince me. Is the Colt that much better? According to you yes, according to me no, the reality is those are our opinions. We argue on on Mil-spec though we both appear to say the same thing about it. So unless either one of us can back our claims with clear evidence, not opinion, we are at a stalemate. Good debate.
Happy shooting.
this is the kind of post that leads me to believe it is completely useless to try and explain this to you. Rather than click "back" then "the thread marked "read this first" and then clicking the first link in the thread you want to make a case for fact being something that is debatable. It is not.

Your Smith does not come as close to meeting the "Milspec" (which, by the way is a term that YOU brought to this discussion with evidently not the foggiest idea of what it says) as the Colt. That is a plain, simple, fact. Not a matter of "opinion".

What, exactly are your claims? Can you "back up" your claim?
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rob_s
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by rob_s »

bg556 wrote:The only big difference between the two (I've shot both) is the markings and the price.
Just to recap, I'd like to see you "back up" this claim.
bg556 wrote: in regards to the run of the mill configuration there is not much difference between Mil-Spec AR-15's with Mil-Spec parts.
Can you please point me to the commercially available AR carbines that have "Mil-Spec parts"?
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by bg556 »

rob_s wrote:
bg556 wrote:The only big difference between the two (I've shot both) is the markings and the price.
Just to recap, I'd like to see you "back up" this claim.
bg556 wrote: in regards to the run of the mill configuration there is not much difference between Mil-Spec AR-15's with Mil-Spec parts.
Can you please point me to the commercially available AR carbines that have "Mil-Spec parts"?
One, I backed it up by saying that both shot the same and I did not notice a difference. Never said it was a scientific fact, but an opinion. Both rifles were the same barrel length, parts were interchangeable, one cost more, and when you looked at the two one and a horse on it the other had "S&W". Last time addressing this.

Two, One example is Stag Arms, while I won't attest that all parts are Mil-Spec, the buffer tube is mil-spec (according to the company). If they are lying then that is on them.

Again, am not goint to argue with you anymore about your opinion of Colt vs Smith, which is what this was originall about. The OP has made his decision. If you are merely looking for someone to argue with for the sake of it, then I don't know what to tell you I'm not your guy. I am willing to agree to disagree.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by YugoRPK »

So what are the military specifications? Is there a list or guide? Mil spec does mean something other than "real good" I assume?
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by JohnnyC »

YugoRPK wrote:So what are the military specifications? Is there a list or guide? Mil spec does mean something other than "real good" I assume?
The mil-spec is a list of things like rob_s listed in his earlier post. The only real "list" is the Technical Data Package but theoretically it's a trade secret. However, if you look at the "read me first" link in this forum, and click the comparison thread, it has a list of components and processes that are important in meeting the specification. You won't find dimensional drawings, but it will give you enough information to show why a Smith isn't "mil-spec." Some are more important than others, but to argue that something that doesn't have the things listed in that post is in no way mil-spec.

The important lesson here isn't to decide if you need something that meets the specification. The lesson really is to educate yourself before making a purchase. bg556 seemingly would rather look that gift horse in the mouth. His prerogative, but if I was put in a situation where it was shown to me that I don't know just how much I don't know, I'd take the time to educate myself instead of trying to argue about it.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by jreinke »

Here's the "mil spec" for the M16A2: https://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch ... mber=31489
[url=http://militarysignatures.com][img]http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member1236.png[/img][/url]
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by bg556 »

I know others will undoubtedly chime in but oh well...
I did not argue what mil-spec was other than stating it was Military Specifications (see below quote), if that is wrong, than what can I say. I did not go into specifics and even admitted I had originally thrown the term 'Mil-Spec' around too loosely in post, I apologized but apparently that's not enough. .
bg556 wrote:I guess I must start this with a disclaimer: "I am no expert, this is soley my opinion or information I have gathered from other sources"

For what it's worth.... In my understanding something Mil-Spec was referred to as being something that met military specifications, a product in use by the military, etc; however if I am wrong please let me know.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by rob_s »

bg556 wrote:One, I backed it up by saying that both shot the same and I did not notice a difference. Never said it was a scientific fact, but an opinion. Both rifles were the same barrel length, parts were interchangeable, one cost more, and when you looked at the two one and a horse on it the other had "S&W". Last time addressing this.
Simply repeating the same nonsense over and over again is not an answer. Just because YOU lack the knowledge to tell the difference between the two guns does not mean there isn't one. Do you know what grade of steel the barrel was made from? The bolt? Do you know if the bolt was surface hardened in any way? Do you know if it was tested to be free from cracks and deficiencies in any way? Stressed prior to the test to make any cracks more visible?
Two, One example is Stag Arms, while I won't attest that all parts are Mil-Spec, the buffer tube is mil-spec (according to the company). If they are lying then that is on them.
it is? Is it made from the correct material, with the correct finish, to the correct dimensions, in the correct machine? Have you asked them? Have you seen the military specification for the "buffer tube" so that you can even know if their claims meet the spec, regardless of whether or not they are lying about those claims?
Again, am not goint to argue with you anymore about your opinion of Colt vs Smith, which is what this was originall about. The OP has made his decision. If you are merely looking for someone to argue with for the sake of it, then I don't know what to tell you I'm not your guy. I am willing to agree to disagree.
This isn't about arguing, this is about you not knowing s--t from brown bread, but continually insisting that your "opinion" matters when confronted with a request for facts, and dancing around the questions when asked to be more specific.

The distilled problem is that you keep bleating on about "opinion" when it is based in total ignorance of the facts.

What I've gathered so far:
  • You have no idea what the "milspec" is or what it means.
  • You have experience with exactly one S&W AR and exactly one Colt AR. Round counts through each to make these determinations currently unknown.
  • To you they shot the same, but you have no idea about any of the guts or DNA of the gun.
  • You cannot be bothered to educate yourself because that may mean that you would be confronted with facts that do not fit your forgone conclusions about things, forgone conclusions based wholly in ignorance, blissful up until today.
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gunguy
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by gunguy »

Yugo, here is a little read that you might want to look at.
http://www.class3weapons.com/Rock_River ... w_s/42.htm
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rob_s
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by rob_s »

Let me be clear.

This is not about picking on someone, or beating them up. It's about the same old issue of someone that doesn't know enough to butter a piece of toast popping off with suggestions and recommendations and refusing to acknowledge that they may not know everything. There's a bumper sticker that says "we may be slow, but at least we are ahead of you", and I am reminded of it in cases like these where I may not know everything, but at least I KNOW that I don't know everything, and the little bit I do know is more than you. :mrgreen:

What is baffling is that someone will skip right over a READ THIS FIRST thread stickied at the top of a forum, chock full of all sorts of good information, and even when they're given a road map to it they prefer to remain blissfully ignorant. There is a difference between ignorant and stupid, and that kind of behavior crosses over from the former to the latter.

This is also not about Smith & Wesson vs. Colt, even though that's what the original thread title is. It became more about not letting bullshit go unchecked. I recommend Smith & Wesson ARs to people all the time if they are stuck at a certain price point and are insistent about buying from a gunshop with something in stock. They certainly beat the usual DPMS, Olympic, Bushmaster, Stag, etc. I would not personally purchase a S&W for my uses, but they are perfectly serviceable guns for the majority of people that buy them. I have seen an uptick in people having problems with them in the last 6-8 months but that may be a limited issue.

Just because YOU pick up two items that appear physically identical to you and appear under a brief use to be identical does not mean that there are not fundamental differences between the two that matter to many other people. And when you start tossing around terms you don't understand, or citing documents you don't have access to and wouldn't know where to find if you needed to, you only make matters worse and only serve to perpetuate the same ignorance that infected you. It's like having gay sex without a condom and passing on the HIV you didn't know you had. :lol:
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by bg556 »

YugoRPK wrote:I'm looking for a good AR-15 under $900 or so. CDNN has some pretty good deals on new LE marked pencil barrel Colt 6520's with A2 upper at $899 and Smith and Wesson M&P M4 flattop with carry handle at $799. If it was your dime which would you get and why?

Looks like the OP was looking for our OPINION of what we would do in that situation....
FACT is no matter what I say or have said you are just going to argue, even though when I asked for you to back up ur claims with fact as well all I got was another arguement.

You are right.... I am wrong.... I should never offered my post as to which one I would have bought..... How could have done something soo bad?
Even though I just realized you (Rob_s) never even answered the OP's question, but merely stepped in to tell everyone how "i've never heared so much misinformation..." yet you really didin't offer anything substantial to the topic yourself. Looks like you were just looking to argue after all.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by rob_s »

bg556 wrote:
YugoRPK wrote:I'm looking for a good AR-15 under $900 or so. CDNN has some pretty good deals on new LE marked pencil barrel Colt 6520's with A2 upper at $899 and Smith and Wesson M&P M4 flattop with carry handle at $799. If it was your dime which would you get and why?

Looks like the OP was looking for our OPINION of what we would do in that situation....
FACT is no matter what I say or have said you are just going to argue, even though when I asked for you to back up ur claims with fact as well all I got was another arguement.

You are right.... I am wrong.... I should never offered my post as to which one I would have bought..... How could have done something soo bad?
Even though I just realized you (Rob_s) never even answered the OP's question, but merely stepped in to tell everyone how "i've never heared so much misinformation..." yet you really didin't offer anything substantial to the topic yourself. Looks like you were just looking to argue after all.
No, I was looking to dispel the mis-information you and others were so happy to vomit into the world.

Since you refuse to educate yourself (a problem all too common in the world today, unfortunately), let's hit the high points. The Colt is superior to the Smith & Wesson in the following areas when weighed against the "mil-spec". Do you know what these are, or what these terms mean? If not, I have a strange feeling there's a place, right on this forum, where you can find the answers...
  • Bolt Carrier type
  • Barrel steel
  • Barrel HPT
  • Barrel MPI
  • Rifling twist
  • Buffer weight
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by SSGTrigger »

I am a colt fan, I have always been a colt fan, and colts will always hold their value. You won't go wrong with buying one. That being said, my suggestion to you based on your original question: looking for a GOOD AR15 UNDER $900, I'd buy the Smith. Last week I was up at the smith plant in Springfield and had to opportunity to fire a few of their weapons at the pro shop. Their M&P 15 was definitely top notch. Smooth trigger pull, and while the range was only 50 feet long or so... extremely accurate with the .223 ball rounds I was using. It was a solid, well constructed firearm. Does it conform to the DA TDP? No, but so long as you're not trying to mod it with any mil spec parts does it matter? The A4 style upper is far superior to the A2 style in my opinion, and I've been in the army long enough to have been issued both at some point in my career. I feel I can get a better cheek to stock weld with the lower mounted optics on the A4. You'll be saving $100 for going with the smith and should be able to buy yourself a 4MOA Aimpoint micro for $350 when you can get it set aside.

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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by silencertalk »

I can't read all of these posts.

It is worth $200 to $400 more per AR to me. Colt ARs are not anything close to being overpriced.

Or you can wait to see who wins the IC competition and get that.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by driver6814 »

Everyone has gone way off topic. Check out and handle both rifles, Buy the one you like best, or can afford.

MILSPEC< MILSPEC Who gives a s--t. Noveske & Les Bauers aren't Milspec. Too tight tolerances, custom, modified parts.

Chrome-moly barrel isn't Milspec unless chrome lined.

Same goes for 1911's. Everyone tightens slide-frame fit, custom parts, oversized parts.

Let the bitching continue!!
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by JohnnyC »

driver6814 wrote:Everyone has gone way off topic. Check out and handle both rifles, Buy the one you like best, or can afford.

MILSPEC< MILSPEC Who gives a s--t. Noveske & Les Bauers aren't Milspec. Too tight tolerances, custom, modified parts.

Chrome-moly barrel isn't Milspec unless chrome lined.

Same goes for 1911's. Everyone tightens slide-frame fit, custom parts, oversized parts.

Let the bitching continue!!

There's a big difference between a Noveske or KAC, which diverges from the specification in order to produce a more accurate or more reliable rifle, and a Bushmaster which doesn't even come close to the specification to begin with. Remember the specification is the bare minimum that is tolerable. Companies are welcome to exceed the specification. In the case of Bushmaster or S&W, they do not even meet the baseline of comparison. This doesn't mean they aren't appropriate, but saying it's as good as something that is clearly superior is just.....well let's say it's not the smartest position one could take on the matter.

Despite what people like to believe, an opinion can be wrong. In my opinion a Ford Pinto is as good as a modern sedan in terms of reliability and hauling capacity......BUT DAMMIT IT'S MY OPINION SO I CAN'T BE WRONG!!!!!!
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by trey_phish83 »

get a colt and stfu, more people will respect you for both.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by driver6814 »

Get more respect if you buy a Colt??? Huh what, sure
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by trey_phish83 »

driver6814 wrote:Get more respect if you buy a Colt??? Huh what, sure
compared to a s&w, yea
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by YugoRPK »

Respect? You want respect get a Labrador. I bought the Colt because the resale value will be good when I get tired of it. Had nothing to do with respect.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by driver6814 »

Well, I respect you for making a choice. May it shoot accurately and consistantly for you
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by tylermtech »

Of the two, I would buy the smith, because I don't want an A2 upper or a pencil barrel. I'm also not crazy about LE only markings.
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Re: Smith or Colt

Post by cyclone72 »

I bought a Colt 6920 because I wanted what I thought was the best. I looked at a S&W and a Les Baer but thought the Colt was better because of info I have read on this forum and I prefer them. I have had a RRA, Bushy and CMMG and was not too fond of them. I just prefer Colts. The only other AR I would have bought in hindsight is a BCM which they claim is very close to Colt specs.
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