16" 300 Blackout, worth it?

[stmcelroy]

If I could have a SBR a 300 Blackout would be a given, but seeing how we can't own them in Washington is a 16" 300 BLK any better than a 5.56?

I guess what i'm wondering is those that have 16" 300 Blk's do you like them? Would you buy them again, or do you see this only as a SBR?

I've got a 45Osprey waiting for my paperwork to be approved, so I could use it with subsonic ammo.

[agBQ08]

Hi stmcelroy! I have a 16.5" barrel from Aaron at Delta Company Arms in 300 BLK, will buy again in a heartbeat from Aaron when the time comes for another build, and would absolutely recommend it as a cartridge for you even if you can't do a SBR, if it meets your needs.

For me, I just didn't want to deal with SBR registration/tax stamp but did want an AR rifle I could suppress easily that would function just fine. Uses include suppressed hunting for hogs and other scum of the animal world (legal in MS if I can find some land), self defense, supersonic hunting for deer, zombies (that low sound signature is key), etc. The availability of 30 cal bullets and the rest of the components being 223 help.

Depends for you. Do you want to be able to suppress a rifle with functioning ammo without that supersonic crack you will get with 223 Rem? Will you be using the 300 BLK in it's effective range of 200-300 yards, or a little further depending on who you ask? What exactly are your intended uses? Ballistics will probably exceed 223 within a certain envelope based on range and environmental factors.

Cliff notes: I have a 16.5" 300 BLK and would buy it again. You should too if its capabilities fit your needs and you can live with its limitations.

[Tom12.7]

If it wasn't for the newer soft shooting 7.62 NATO ARs on the market now, I'd say yes. The felt recoil difference of what's out now verses just a couple years ago is amazing. If you are talking about a 16" supersonic only, it's hard to beat some of the new 7.62 NATO rifles out now. I really think the cartridge shines on the subsonic level. Sure the 16" blackout would recoil a little less and be a little lighter, but the 7.62 NATO has a lot to offer.
Try shooting a regular M4 clone, then compare it to something like the 7.62 JP, Larue Predatar with a brake, or SR 25 EMC (new brakes soon to be on the way). It is absolutely nothing like the 7.62 carbines from a few years ago.
I personally like the short subsonic suppressed 300 black and run it like a subgun. A Shrike 300 black barrel would be kick ass.
Just my opinions I guess.
Tom

[da bugman]

I have a bushmaster in 308 , a 16" springfield socom , and a 16" 300 blk. If you reload , I would choose the BLK Out for urban self defense or keeping deer out of the garden.

Cheaper for the initial rifle,and quiter to shoot than than a 16" springfield socom. Match triggers avaible cheap for the ar platform, adding optic much easier. The m14 does hit harder ,but is not as accurate as the blk at +2moa. Everything I have shot out of my black out is near 1 moa. The m14 cost more and is more expensive to trick up.

The bush master is accurate and has match triggers avaible just as any ar platform, but is a 10 lb rifle with only a 20 round mag.

The blackout hits harder than the 223, in the m4 format, and is good 200 yard round on zombies or deer, I sure you can use it on zombies out pass 300 yards if pressed with good results.

If you plan to use a can, it is the way to go. It is quiter than a 308 with out,super or subsonic.

JD

[stmcelroy]

The only thing holding me back is I have a Kel-tec RFB in .308, but no can to shoot it with. The overall length of the RFB is dang near the same as a SBR AR15.

I really like the RFB but I could sell it and get a 300Blk upper and a .308 silencer for the same money.

Decisions, decisions.

[JasonAAC]

If it wasn't for the newer soft shooting 7.62 NATO ARs on the market now, I'd say yes. The felt recoil difference of what's out now verses just a couple years ago is amazing. If you are talking about a 16" supersonic only, it's hard to beat some of the new 7.62 NATO rifles out now. I really think the cartridge shines on the subsonic level. Sure the 16" blackout would recoil a little less and be a little lighter, but the 7.62 NATO has a lot to offer.
Try shooting a regular M4 clone, then compare it to something like the 7.62 JP, Larue Predatar with a brake, or SR 25 EMC (new brakes soon to be on the way). It is absolutely nothing like the 7.62 carbines from a few years ago.
I personally like the short subsonic suppressed 300 black and run it like a subgun. A Shrike 300 black barrel would be kick ass.
Just my opinions I guess.
Tom

I don't think these can really be compared.

Shooting the 300 BLK is nothing like shooting a JP 308 or KAC EMC, etc... Not to mention the weapons are much smaller and lighter and you have the subsonic cycling option.

I find the 762 rifles to be much harder to handle. (not hard to handle, mind you, but hardER). YMMV.

[silencertalk]

308 rifles are heavy and not handy. Totally different.

300 AAC BLACKOUT is the way to go for zombies.

[Tom12.7]

Ha!
Here it seems like I'm bashing the Blackout cartridge, even though I like alot. On the Knights forum, they say I'm bashing the 6x35 that I want to try out in as an alternative to the Blackout. But my point is that when you spend the money for a complete system, some advantages seem to stick out. Put a Short Dot on a quality rifle with a quality suppressor, it adds up fast. That's what I'm trying to say, a light recoiling, light 300 black would be easier to handle, but you give up practical distance with the elevation and windage needed for the Blackout verses 7.62 NATO. I think I come off wrong when I type instead of speaking in person. There is places for all, I just think that an advantage for closer situations with the 300 Blackout, mid range with the 5.56 (jack of all trades, master of none), and longer with the 7.62 NATO, not extended distance for the .338 Lapua or 50 BMG, etc.
Tom

[JasonAAC]

There is places for all, I just think that an advantage for closer situations with the 300 Blackout, mid range with the 5.56 (jack of all trades, master of none), and longer with the 7.62 NATO, not extended distance for the .338 Lapua or 50 BMG, etc.
Tom

yes! (with overlap at every edge)

It's cool, don't sweat it.

[GlockBuyer]

If you can't own an SBR, then I'd just get an integrally suppressed AR upper that brings the overall length to 16". I've seen them in 300 whisper and would assume they are even better when chambered in 300BLK.

[stmcelroy]

If you can't own an SBR, then I'd just get an integrally suppressed AR upper that brings the overall length to 16". I've seen them in 300 whisper and would assume they are even better when chambered in 300BLK.

That would be great, but then I couldn't use the suppressor on my .308 bolt action or other guns.

[MisterWilson]

I only ask this since they gang's all here, but at approximately what range does a lightweight supersonic 300 blk projectile start to loose steam out of a 16" barrel? About how far out is it good for punching paper at?

[silencertalk]

I shot at 600 yards and got some good hits.

[doubloon]

"Lose steam" in terms of accuracy (the question Robert addressed), ft/s or ft-lbs?

The 123gr cartridge listed on the 300BLK website states 2315 ft/s and 1462 ft-lbs from the muzzle of a 16" barrel.

Referencing some simple on-line ballistic calculators I'm led to believe that on a calm, cool, clear day this round will still be supersonic at 600 yards (roughly 1200 ft/s) and still hitting harder than a 124 gr 9mm Luger (roughly 400 ft-lbs) at that same distance ... duh, given the MV of a 124gr pill from most 9mm self defense handguns is generally less than 1200 ft/s. Certainly *more* than enough steam for punching paper although your looking at 50" more drop than the .308Win from the same barrel.

So, the problem depends on how you define lose steam. For me I have arbitrarily defined "lose steam" as 1000 ft-lbs and the steam mark for me is crossed for this 123gr 300BLK combo somewhere around 180 yards, based on data from the same on-line calculators.

My arbitrary line is the sand is based on the energy left in a .480 Ruger around the 50 yard mark from a 7"-8" barrel or simply 1000+ ft-lbs. The Ruger supposedly has 800-900 ft-lbs left in it at 100 yards. I don't know if that's fair or not but at least I'm not trying to compare it to a .454 Casull.

However, I do believe comparing the 300BLK to a 7.62x51mm NATO round from a 16" barrel is simply not a fair comparison. A 150gr .308Win from a 16" barrel with ~2600 ft/s muzzle velocity will be dumping about 1500 ft-lbs on a target at 180 yards and still still delivering 1000+ ft-lbs at nearly 400 yards. Again ... all this data is from my *free* on-line ballistic calculators.

Do I *need* 1000 ft-lbs at target? I'm not sure, it's just the yardstick I'm using for the moment.

[da bugman]

I only ask this since they gang's all here, but at approximately what range does a lightweight supersonic 300 blk projectile start to loose steam out of a 16" barrel? About how far out is it good for punching paper at?

If deer hunting and expect tp recover game 150 yards to 200 yards depemding on your skill level. ( based soley on balistic tables, I have not hunted with BLK out yet). Think of it interms of a 30-30.

Punching hole in stuff as far as yoiur able to, or until you run out of elevation in your optic.

Shooting 2 legged vermin, as far as yoiu can hit them. I have standards for harvisting game but not for selfdefense . If I am defending my self ,I just care about takeing them out the fight, a 30 cal hole is better fight stopper than a 223 dia hole. If they crawl off and die slowly or recover I don't care as long as they stay out of the fight and 30 cal holes do that better.

JD

[silencertalk]

400 ft-lbs is still like a good hit with a combat handgun at contact distance. 600 is like a 357 Magnum. People hunt with 357 all the time so I would not set my line as high as 1000.

[Tom12.7]

Its probably more accurate to make the energy comparison to something like a .40 S&W at point blank. Also though, at distance it's definitely harder to make good first round hits, especially so with unknown distances with the slower round. I was recently at a shoot that only had a maximum range of 450 yards. There were gongs and silhouettes at random ranges that we timed shooting in sequence in different stations. It was harder than what it looked like, guys had lots of misses past 250 yards or so. I ran it with a couple rifles, not with a Blackout this time, but one was a good shooting AR in 7.62 X 39 with good ammo. It was much harder with this than a 16" 5.56 AR. There was no time for real range estimation, just guestimation, the faster round was more forgiving.
Tom

[silencertalk]

Point Blank for the 40 S&W is in the 95-111 yard range, so I think you mean contact distance.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm

[doubloon]

400 ft-lbs is still like a good hit with a combat handgun at contact distance. 600 is like a 357 Magnum. People hunt with 357 all the time so I would not set my line as high as 1000.

Cannot agree more on the 400 ft-lbs. da bugman summed it up quite well for me although I don't limit my vermin to 2 legs.

... Shooting 2 legged vermin, as far as yoiu can hit them. I have standards for harvisting game but not for selfdefense . ...

I also have no doubt I've set my line a little high, well beyond my skill for sure.

I'm sure the 1000 ft-lbs at 250 yards seems a little arbitrary but it drags along with it a few implied ballistics without having to specify bullet weight, BC or muzzle velocity and keeps the point blank range out past 150 yards for various projectiles between 123-170 grains. I'm not that good a shot so I need all the help I can get

Playing around with the demo version of quickload and trying to tweak the case measurements from the demo .308 by hand it seems launching a 150gr projectile from a 16" barrel with the 300BLK to attain 1000 ft-lbs is within the limits of the cartridge ... EXCEPT for the fact that I don't know WTF I'm doing in QuickLoad. But if it were possible that would yield a point blank range of ~175 yards @ ~1200 ft-lbs it would seem like a very respectable cartridge for a wide range of game in North Ameria ... out to a moderate distance. Probably no elk unless you're close enough to hit him with a Red Ryder but still a respectable hunting cartridge.

Seeing what the forthcoming 150+gr factory loads can do is a scale tipper for me, the 300BLK is a fascinating gun on paper and has great (high dollar) plinking potential but I'd like to wring real work out of it as well.

[doubloon]

... Also though, at distance it's definitely harder to make good first round hits, ...

Yes, MPBR ... I should say the PBR number I put in the previous post (before reading yours and Robert's reply) is based on ~1.5" not 3" ... widening the rise to 3" yields a MPBR closer to 230 yards for the 300BLK in 123gr which is not exactly shabby

[silencertalk]

Seeing what the forthcoming 150+gr factory loads can do is a scale tipper for me, the 300BLK is a fascinating gun on paper and has great (high dollar) plinking potential but I'd like to wring real work out of it as well.

What 150 grain load do you mean?

The hunting load coming out is 125 grain from Rem and 110 grain from Hornady.

Is there something about 150 grains that you like? Hornady and I decided to stay in the 110-125 range as much as possible.

[snipecatcher]

Seeing what the forthcoming 150+gr factory loads can do is a scale tipper for me, the 300BLK is a fascinating gun on paper and has great (high dollar) plinking potential but I'd like to wring real work out of it as well.

What 150 grain load do you mean?

The hunting load coming out is 125 grain from Rem and 110 grain from Hornady.

Is there something about 150 grains that you like? Hornady and I decided to stay in the 110-125 range as much as possible.

I was shooting a 150 Sierra Round-nose Prohunter at 1800 fps out of my 10" for a while, but I too decided to stick with the 110 V-max. The 110 will shoot a bit flatter and should expand just as well.
-Dan

[doubloon]

Seeing what the forthcoming 150+gr factory loads can do is a scale tipper for me, the 300BLK is a fascinating gun on paper and has great (high dollar) plinking potential but I'd like to wring real work out of it as well.

What 150 grain load do you mean?
...

My bad ... I made the assumption the core-lokt load in this post would be a 150, 125 will still be interesting.

viewtopic.php?p=692277#p692277

Also, I think the case capacity on my quickload tweak is off and much higher than actually possible.

...
Is there something about 150 grains that you like? Hornady and I decided to stay in the 110-125 range as much as possible.

I have it in my head that for two-legged game any size, 2+ legged game under about 250lbs, paper and gongs 110-125 around 2300-2400ft/s is adequate in almost any conditions. For 2+ legged targets 300+ or so lbs a 150gr bullet around 2400-2500 ft/s would allow me to take shots I might not normally take with 125gr bullet. But I could be over-engineering the shot.

[jimmym40a2]

16 inch 300blk out barrels for 199!
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/category ... arrels-201