Why I dumped Religion in favor of living the best I can

[Burt Gummer]

The same social engineers that gave us nations/boundaries also gave us our banking/financial institutions and our religions.

I was a born again, Chick track carrying Christian for 20+ years of my life and did something Christians are told not to ever do - researched what I believed. It is a many times repeated story of a solar savior via the Winter Solstice. It is all crap.
The 3-day death and resurrection is all part of the solar myth. All the characters of the New Testament are the same as the symbols/stories of the Zodiac. As in the greatest story ever told. A story, only.

Not a pleasant thing to come to terms with at all, but nonetheless absolutely true. The sheeple want one thing - a comforting story - and the promise of a heaven and streets of gold offers that comfort. Unfortunately, it is a fairy tale. It is hard to find truth, but not that hard to expose a lie. Christianity is a lie; a billion people are deceived. Watch 'the Naked Truth" or the first "Zeitgeist" movie; or any of the Jordan Maxwell material if you are interested in waking up.

What woke me up is how ruthless the Zionist/Israeli regime is and how we 'as Christians' were supposed to support it at all cost. The whole 'my God is better than you God' nonsense that fosters war and genocide. The rulers of this world, the banking elite families, founded Israel and it all ties together.

No, there is not a savior - and man riding a white horsey through the clouds ready to swoop down to make everything right. That BS story is there to foster apathy. Why be concerned? Jesus will make it all right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZgT1SRcrKE

Whatever religion you have bonded yourself to is nothing more than a birth lottery. If you were born in Mexico, you are most likely Catholic (worship the gods of your slaughtering conquerers). If you were born in Iran, you are most likely Muslim. All crap. You are ASSIGNED your 'faith' and adhere to it, accept it, and slam the door behind you and never question whether or not it is BS.

[ranb]

I saw the light and dropped the god burden ten years ago.

Ranb

[doubloon]

More than 40 years sober but no chip to show for it.

[Fulmen]

Whatever religion you have bonded yourself to is nothing more than a birth lottery.

This is one of the most obvious arguments, and I've never understood why so few realize it.

[YugoRPK]

Its nice not having an assigned faith. I was signing my kids up for summer camp last week and told one of my sons he could go to Hebrew Camp. "But Dad, I'm an atheist" . "Come on son, you can be whatever you want. Baptist this week, Jew the next, maybe Pentecostal the next. I hear they have some wild women Pentecostals . " He wouldnt buy it.

[continuity]

WOW !!!

[MJF1911]

Good luck with that.

[warjunky1428]

Been agnostic my entire life despite being raised in a devout Christian family. You nailed it on the head in few words, well said.

[Conqueror]

I was born Jewish and even had a bar mitzvah but at most was agnostic as a kid and am now a fairly staunch atheist. I have no need of religion, my life is happy and fulfilling without it. I try to respect the choices of others to be religious, though.

[YugoRPK]

Been agnostic my entire life despite being raised in a devout Christian family. You nailed it on the head in few words, well said.

A few words he nailed on the head. Then he slid into

"What woke me up is how ruthless the Zionist/Israeli regime is and how we 'as Christians' were supposed to support it at all cost."

[warjunky1428]

Been agnostic my entire life despite being raised in a devout Christian family. You nailed it on the head in few words, well said.

A few words he nailed on the head. Then he slid into

"What woke me up is how ruthless the Zionist/Israeli regime is and how we 'as Christians' were supposed to support it at all cost."

Even that is truth, though we can't say so without being called a racist or anti-semite. Jews don't even seem to realize what a Sumerian is, it is anyone from the Sumerian valley, which means all arabs and jews. But somehow they think it is exclusive to them.

Christians have continuously been called to fight on behalf of the jews, even more so since they pull the holohaux victim card all the time.

There is enough evidence to prove otherwise, but with how strongly they defend it and persecute anyone who disagrees or questions the story should be enough for someone to see to ridiculousness of it all. If it was truth, it would be capable of defending itself.

Religion is the downfall of humanity.

[ranb]

even more so since they pull the holohaux victim card all the time.

Holohaux as in holohoax? Are you denying the holocaust ever took place?

There is enough evidence to prove otherwise, but with how strongly they defend it and persecute anyone who disagrees or questions the story should be enough for someone to see to ridiculousness of it all. If it was truth, it would be capable of defending itself.

So you think that if an idea is defended instead of letting it stand by itself on its own merits, it is grounds for believing the idea is false? That does not make any sense at all in my opinion.

I have defending the following ideas (as well as others) on the internet;

1. Guns (such as silencers) are legal.
2. The Apollo moon landings actually happened.
3. The Holocaust happened.
4. Nuclear power is real.
5. The WTC was destroyed by terrorists who crashed airliners into it.
6. Obama was born in the USA.
7. You don't need a license to make a silencer.

Where would we be if we just let any group of kooks run wild with their idiotic prejudice instead of countering them with rational thought? There is no reason to let the inmates run the internet. Freedom needs to be defended.

If you want to debate the nature of the holocaust perhaps you should start another thread on the topic.

Ranb

[warjunky1428]

even more so since they pull the holohaux victim card all the time.

Holohaux as in holohoax? Are you denying the holocaust ever took place?

There is enough evidence to prove otherwise, but with how strongly they defend it and persecute anyone who disagrees or questions the story should be enough for someone to see to ridiculousness of it all. If it was truth, it would be capable of defending itself.

So you think that if an idea is defended instead of letting it stand by itself on its own merits, it is grounds for believing the idea is false? That does not make any sense at all in my opinion.

I have defending the following ideas (as well as others) on the internet;

1. Guns (such as silencers) are legal.
2. The Apollo moon landings actually happened.
3. The Holocaust happened.
4. Nuclear power is real.
5. The WTC was destroyed by terrorists who crashed airliners into it.
6. Obama was born in the USA.
7. You don't need a license to make a silencer.

Where would we be if we just let any group of kooks run wild with their idiotic prejudice instead of countering them with rational thought? There is no reason to let the inmates run the internet. Freedom needs to be defended.

If you want to debate the nature of the holocaust perhaps you should start another thread on the topic.

Ranb

Yes, I am saying that the holocaust as we have been told did not happen. But I do not deny that atrocities did happen. I'm not here to debate specifics, and it appears neither are you so we are in agreeance.

There are people who don't believe nuclear power is real? Wow. The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

I understand what you are saying, and to a point I do agree with it. I know the truth will always have people further explaining it to those who don't understand or believe it as truth, that is not what I am referring to. What I am referring to is the amount of demonization, name calling, labeling, and even imprisoning recently, of anyone who disagrees with the story of the holocaust. If you don't believe that, look up current thought crimes and imprisonment in Europe and Great Britain. People are being put in jail for simply stating they don't believe the holocaust took place. This degree of forced indoctrination of a questionable event is mind blowing and should throw up enough red flags. Voltaire has a good quote for this situation, "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

[Fulmen]

I won't accept Holocaust-denial, this is a known historical fact. Some small details might be wrong or even falsified, but that doesn't change the the reality of what happened during WWII.

But that shouldn't free any living Jews from the same moral standards we hold everyone else to, and I don't accept the premise that any criticism of Israel automatically makes one a anti-semite. If you start to take a closer look at Judaism you'll quickly find it just as primitive and barbaric as Islam, it's a religion that celebrates (fictional) genocide as "Gods master plan for his chosen people". I'm not saying that jews as an ethnic group are worse than other people, but the s--t many believe in is pretty horrific. Not that Christianity is that much better at the core, but it has evolved with the western society to something much more benign.

[ranb]

I'm not here to debate specifics, and it appears neither are you so we are in agreeance.

No way am I agreeing with you

There are people who don't believe nuclear power is real? Wow.

Yes, they are just crazy as those who believe the holocaust is a hoax. Their principle piece of evidence that nuclear power is fake? It is jew science.

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

What I am referring to is the amount of demonization, name calling, labeling, and even imprisoning recently, of anyone who disagrees with the story of the holocaust.

You do understand that a vast amount of demonization goes into convincing us that these things did not happen?

If you don't believe that, look up current thought crimes and imprisonment in Europe and Great Britain. People are being put in jail for simply stating they don't believe the holocaust took place. This degree of forced indoctrination of a questionable event is mind blowing and should throw up enough red flags.

Deplorable, but not evidence of a hoax. Also not forced indoctrination. Ever notice how all of the supposed evidence of a holocaust hoax is fucking stupid? Ever notice how not a single Nazi that was prosecuted for war crimes related to the holocaust ever denied it took place? It was always, “I was following orders" or "I was not there".

Ranb

[warjunky1428]

I won't accept Holocaust-denial, this is a known historical fact. Some small details might be wrong or even falsified, but that doesn't change the the reality of what happened during WWII.

But that shouldn't free any living Jews from the same moral standards we hold everyone else to, and I don't accept the premise that any criticism of Israel automatically makes one a anti-semite. If you start to take a closer look at Judaism you'll quickly find it just as primitive and barbaric as Islam, it's a religion that celebrates (fictional) genocide as "Gods master plan for his chosen people". I'm not saying that jews as an ethnic group are worse than other people, but the s--t many believe in is pretty horrific. Not that Christianity is that much better at the core, but it has evolved with the western society to something much more benign.

Christianity was far more brutal in its early days than it is now. Before and during the crusades, it was the christians who were "convert or die." At the same time, islam was just a tad younger yet grew and expanded at an astounding rate because it was the opposite in their approach. Then the crusades woke some people up, and pissed others off, and the roles switched in a sense.

The old testament is incredibly brutal. It is very much so about genocide, elimination of entire cities and peoples, killing of one's own kin, you name it. The only religion I can think of that was any more brutal, and actually centered around the warrior, is Norse Mythology. Yet even with their brutality, their code of ethics and sense of individual discipline and honor is prevalent throughout it.

Religion started out as a way of solidifying a code of how to live well, yet evolved into a full belief in the indescribably and then using it as a reason and an excuse to do harm to others. That is the problem.

[warjunky1428]

I'm not here to debate specifics, and it appears neither are you so we are in agreeance.

No way am I agreeing with you

There are people who don't believe nuclear power is real? Wow.

Yes, they are just crazy as those who believe the holocaust is a hoax. Their principle piece of evidence that nuclear power is fake? It is jew science.

The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

What I am referring to is the amount of demonization, name calling, labeling, and even imprisoning recently, of anyone who disagrees with the story of the holocaust.

You do understand that a vast amount of demonization goes into convincing us that these things did not happen?

If you don't believe that, look up current thought crimes and imprisonment in Europe and Great Britain. People are being put in jail for simply stating they don't believe the holocaust took place. This degree of forced indoctrination of a questionable event is mind blowing and should throw up enough red flags.

Deplorable, but not evidence of a hoax. Also not forced indoctrination. Ever notice how all of the supposed evidence of a holocaust hoax is fucking stupid? Ever notice how not a single Nazi that was prosecuted for war crimes related to the holocaust ever denied it took place? It was always, “I was following orders" or "I was not there".

Ranb

Nice slide equating my view of the holocaust not happening to the degree it is told to someone's lack of scientific education.

Take a zero off the number and you will have a more accurate account of how many perished in the camps. There was no extermination program, and this is proven through science and excavations. They were work camps, every one of them located near a major factory. They permitted the International Committee of the Red Cross access to these camps, even they proclaimed that the cause of the deaths and deplorable conditions was a product of malnutrition, inability to delouse clothing and personnel without delousing agents and gas, and the spread of typhus through the camps. All of this caused by the allied bombing of the supply lines and railroads, ceasing regular and necessary supplies to the camps.

At the end of the war, the conditions were horrible. The people were starved and frail. Their old clothing was tattered and some of the barracks were burned with many bodies inside trying to contain the spread of disease through impromptu cremations. This appearance and immediate perception caused the story we are told today, despite it not being the whole story. Alas, the old saying proves true once again, "perception is reality." But it is not truth.

[Fulmen]

Warjunky: While we do agree on religion I have better things to do than to argue with a Holocaust-denier. so I'm out of this one.

[ranb]

Take a zero off the number and you will have a more accurate account of how many perished in the camps.

All of this caused by the allied bombing of the supply lines and railroads, ceasing regular and necessary supplies to the camps.

Classic anti-semitic BS. Fewer people murdered; it was the Allies fault.

Notice how this asshole doesn't even admit to any Nazi involvement in the above post. The jews did the dying and it was the Allies fault, not the fuckers that put them there.

They permitted the International Committee of the Red Cross access to these camps,

If you are going to make a claim, then you should support it with some evidence. Perhaps a link to the Red Cross inspection reports of camps other than Theresienstadt?

Ranb

[warjunky1428]

Take a zero off the number and you will have a more accurate account of how many perished in the camps.

All of this caused by the allied bombing of the supply lines and railroads, ceasing regular and necessary supplies to the camps.

Classic anti-semitic BS. Fewer people murdered; it was the Allies fault.

Notice how this asshole doesn't even admit to any Nazi involvement in the above post. The jews did the dying and it was the Allies fault, not the fuckers that put them there.

Ranb

It was a very brief summery and now I have you two shaking over-clentched fists. This is my point, it is as though we cannot contest this event but we can anything else. 70+ million dead under Lenin and Stalin? Yup. 95+ million dead under Mao Zedong? Yeah that was a bad time too. Max 6 million accused dead under Hitler? AN OUTRAGE AGAINST HUMANITY! NEVER FORGET! what? Am I missing something here? No, I'm not. The Russians aren't playing a victim card to get their way. The Chinese aren't either.

You call me an asshole because I question a story and pursue what happened through science and factual reports. I recognize the embellishment and gross exaggeration of atrocities that happened. But apparently I am the National Socialist sympathizer. Don't forget, the United States imprisoned not only Japanese-Americans during the war, but also almost any other Asian-American as well because "they all look alike." Before that, we committed genocide in the Philippines. We went to war against Spain because of false media reporting. German scientists came to the United States in the 20's and early 30's to study OUR eugenics program, which was extensive by the way. And the list goes on and on.

If you skimmed or skipped everything above, at least read this. "The victor writes history." What does this mean exactly. This means that the winner of the conflict will suppress and alter their own history to make themselves righteous in there actions of war, to justify the deaths and continue to exist as a greater power than they were. They also will embellish and exaggerate the evil nature of their now defeated enemy to show everyone why the death was necessary and how much better they are than this enemy. War will always have atrocities on both sides, it is the nature of war. Yet only the victor will decide who's atrocities are told and who's are swept under the rug.

I am a history major, not only academically, but in my personal life as well. I have studied, questioned, and dug for answers since I began to read and comprehend what was in front of me. And even being a history major, I say that history as we know it is the biggest lie humans have ever been told about themselves. (religion is a separate matter)

[ranb]

It was a very brief summery and now I have you two shaking over-clentched fists. This is my point, it is as though we cannot contest this event but we can anything else. 70+ million dead under Lenin and Stalin? Yup. 95+ million dead under Mao Zedong? Yeah that was a bad time too. Max 6 million accused dead under Hitler? AN OUTRAGE AGAINST HUMANITY! NEVER FORGET! what? Am I missing something here? No, I'm not. The Russians aren't playing a victim card to get their way. The Chinese aren't either.

Try to tell us that the Russians and Chinese did not commit genocide and you will get the same treatment from rational people. So why is it that you will accept that Stalin and Mao murdered their own, but the fucking Nazi's didn't?

You call me an asshole because I question a story and pursue what happened through science and factual reports.

What science and factual reports? You have yet to post link to any such thing. Apparently you expect the people reading this forum to be stupid enough to believe whatever filth you post.

I recognize the embellishment and gross exaggeration of atrocities that happened. But apparently I am the National Socialist sympathizer. Don't forget, the United States imprisoned not only Japanese-Americans during the war, but also almost any other Asian-American as well because "they all look alike." Before that, we committed genocide in the Philippines. We went to war against Spain because of false media reporting. German scientists came to the United States in the 20's and early 30's to study OUR eugenics program, which was extensive by the way. And the list goes on and on.

Yes there are bad people everywhere and no one culture has a monopoly on evil. What is so special about the Nazi's that they are the only ones you seem to be willing to give a pass on their genocidal history?

If you skimmed or skipped everything above, at least read this. "The victor writes history." What does this mean exactly. This means that the winner of the conflict will suppress and alter their own history to make themselves righteous in there actions of war, to justify the deaths and continue to exist as a greater power than they were. They also will embellish and exaggerate the evil nature of their now defeated enemy to show everyone why the death was necessary and how much better they are than this enemy. War will always have atrocities on both sides, it is the nature of war. Yet only the victor will decide who's atrocities are told and who's are swept under the rug.

The Nazi's claim to have orchestrated the final solution, why don't you believe them?

I am a history major, not only academically, but in my personal life as well. I have studied, questioned, and dug for answers since I began to read and comprehend what was in front of me. And even being a history major, I say that history as we know it is the biggest lie humans have ever been told about themselves. (religion is a separate matter)

Then you are doing a real shitty job if you can't provide a single rational link to support your bulllshit. Where are you trying to get your degree from? Metapedia U?

Ranb

[warjunky1428]

I thought we weren't going to get into this, thus why I make this into a full debate.

But seeing as how spiteful and venomous you are at the mere questioning of the story makes it not even worth it. Even if I had a time machine to take you back in time and see with your own eyes I doubt you would believe anything other than what you already do.

Yet another reason why I don't like getting into these debates with most people, everyone takes it so personally that it is useless to continue for neither side will learn anything at all and will only get frustrated. Your emotional state ruins any attempt at a logical discussion.

And before you can try to call me out for "backing away when asked for facts," I am backing away from you because you are emotional. And I've been in those debates before and choose who I talk to now because of it. The evidence is all there, from wall samples of the gas chambers, to blue prints of the camps, photos taken by the Red Cross, to allied intelligence data of the time.

[warjunky1428]

A single article for you, that I actually highly doubt you will read to completion. But I will provide it nonetheless.

Argument Boils About
Numbers Of Auschwitz Dead
The Numbers Drop - The Controversy Continues
Multiple Sources
11-23-7

It is far past time for an international investigation conducted by truly impartial scientists, researchers and scholars into the reality of Auschwitz to properly and as accurately as possible bring history into accord with the facts. Peoples of all religions and persuasions have a right to such facts. So far, as the following data demonstrates, much of it from the world's foremost Jewish Holocaust scholars, we are a long way from a consensus on the truth of what happened at Auschwitz in WWII.

The Plaques At Auschwitz

The ever declining numbers of alleged dead at Auschwitz are graphically illustrated by the plaques from the camp.

The first is the plaque that was on display at the Auschwitz camp from 1948 until 1989 and states "4 million" victims perished.

The second plaque currently on display at Auschwitz has the dramatically reduced number of victims to now only "1.5 million"...a casual reduction in the number of deaths by an incredible 2.5 million.

So, the official deaths at Auschwitz drop by a stunning 2.5 million, but the legendary overall Holocaust figure of 6,000,000 dead remains the same...


The Historically Claimed Numbers Of Dead At Auschwitz

9,000,000

Source: Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.

8,000,000

Source: The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.

7,000,000

Source: Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.

6,000,000

Source: Cited in the book Auschwitz Doctor by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.

5,000,000 to 5,500,000

Source: Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Höss, based on his confession which was written in English, a language he never spoke. (Note - It is now well-known that severe torture and forced 'confessions' of captured Nazis and military were common before the Nuremberg war crimes trials which were completely dominated and directed by Jews...much to the shock and frustration of non-Jewish prosecutors and staff.*)

5,000,000

Source: Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde had reduced the figure down to 1,433,000.

4,500,000

Source: In 1945 this figure was cited by another witness at the aforementioned Höss trial.

4,000,000

Source: Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995, The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.

3,500,000

Source: Cited in the 1991 edition of the Dictionary of the French Language and by Claude Lanzmann in 1980 in his introduction to Filip Muller's book, Three Years in an Auschwitz Gas Chamber.

3,000,000

Source: Cited in a forced confession by Rudolf Höss, the Auschwitz commander who said this was the number of those who had died at Auschwitz prior to Dec. 1, 1943. Later cited in the June 7, 1993 issue of Heritage, the most widely read Jewish newspaper in California, even though three years previously the authorities at the Auschwitz museum had scaled down the figure to a minimum of 1,100,000 and a maximum of 1,500,000. (see below).

2,500,000

Source: Cited by Rudolf Vrba (an author of various fraudulent accounts of events he claims to have witnessed at Auschwitz) when he testified on July 16, 1981 for the Israeli government's war crimes trial of former SS official Adolf Eichmann.

2,000,000

Source: Cited by Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in Harvest of Hate; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in The War Against the Jews.

2,000,000 to 4,000,000

Source: Cited by Yehuda Bauer in 1982 in his book, A History of the Holocaust. However, by 1989 Bauer revised his figure to 1,600,000.
(Yehuda Bauer is a world famous Jewish historian and scholar of the Holocaust. He is a Professor of Holocaust Studies at the Avraham Harman Institute of Contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Bauer)

1,600,000

Source: This is a 1989 revision by Yehuda Bauer of his earlier figure in 1982 of 2,000,000 to 4,000,000, Bauer cited this new figure on September 22, 1989 in The Jerusalem Post, at which time he wrote "The larger figures have been dismissed for years, except that it hasn't reached the public yet."

1,500,000

Source: In 1995 this was the number of Auschwitz deaths announced by Polish President Lech Walesa as determined by those at the Auschwitz museum. This number was inscribed on the monument at the Auschwitz camp at that time, thereby "replacing" the earlier 4,000,000 figure that had been formally repudiated (and withdrawn from the monument) five years earlier in 1990. At that time, on July 17, 1990 The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph citing the "new" figure of 1,500,000 that had been determined by the authorities at the Auschwitz museum. This new figure was reported two years later in a UPI report published in the New York Post on March 26, 1992. On January 26, 1995 both The Washington Post and The New York Times cited this 1,500,000 figure as the new "official" figure (citing the Auschwitz Museum authorities).

1,471,595

Source: This is a 1983 figure cited by Georges Wellers who (as noted previously) had determined, writing in 1973, that some 2,000,000 had died.

1,433,000

Source: This figure was cited on September 1, 1989 by the French daily, Le Monde, which earlier, on April 20, 1978, had cited the figure at 4,000,000.

1,250,000

Source: In the book, The Destruction of the European Jews, by Raul Hilberg (1985). (Raul Hilberg (June 2, 1926 - August 4, 2007 in Williston, Vermont) was one of the best-known and most distinguished Jewish Holocaust historians. His three-volume, 1,273-page The Destruction of the European Jews is regarded as the seminal study of the Nazi Final Solution. He was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences on April 26, 2005. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Raul_Hilberg)

1,100,000 to 1,500,000

Source: Sources for this estimate are (Jewish historians) Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum in their 1984 book, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 is (the new) "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.

1,000,000

Source: Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.

900,000

Source: Reported on August 3, 1990 11, by Aufbau, a Jewish newspaper in New York.

800,000 to 900,000

Source: Reported by Gerald Reitlinger in his book, The Final Solution.

775,000 to 800,000

Source: Jean-Claude Pressac's revised figure, put forth in his 1993 book, The Crematoria of Auschwitz: The Mass Murder's Machinery, scaling down his earlier claim of 1,000,000 dead.

630,000 to 710,000

Source: In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.

135,000 to 140,000

Source: This is an estimate based on documents held by the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross. It is known that International Tracing Service has a complete set of registration documents. This is thought to include a complete set of roll-call data which includes twice daily tallies of those who died. Although the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross has such records, they have never officially published an accurate count of those who died, or even an accurate report as to exactly which documents they hold. However, totals from these records have been obtained by various interested parties.

The estimate of 135,500 is roughly corroborated by the "Auschwitz death books." The death books themselves are wartime German camp records, which were captured by the Soviets towards the end of the war, and hidden in Soviet achieves, until released to the Red Cross in 1989.

The death books consist of 46 volumes which document each death at Auschwitz (each death certificate consists of the deceased person's full name, profession and religion, date and place of birth, pre- Auschwitz residence, parents' names, time of death, and cause of death as determined by a camp physician). The records for the most important years, 1942 and 1943, are almost complete (there are also a few volumes for the year 1941, but none for the year 1944 or January 1945 (when Auschwitz was evacuated)).

The Auschwitz death books contain the death certificates of some 69,000 individuals, of whom about 30,000 were listed as Jews. You may view various entries in the Auschwitz Death Books by clicking on links to the Auschwitz museum.

The Grand Total?

Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 people died in the entire German concentration camp system (from all causes).

_____


* From the book 'Letters from Nuremberg: My Father's Narrative of a Quest for Justice' by U.S Senator Christopher J Dodd:

"You know how strongly I feel toward those who preach intolerance of any kind. With that knowledge - you will understand when I tell you that this (Nuremberg Prosecution) staff is about seventy-five percent Jewish. Now my point is that the Jews should stay away from this trial - for their own sake. For - mark this well - the charge 'a war for the Jews' is still being made and in the post-war years it will be made again and again. The too large percentage of Jewish men and women here will be cited as proof of this charge. Sometimes it seems that the Jews will never learn about these things. They seem intent on bringing new difficulties down on their own heads. I do not like to write about this matter -it is distasteful to me - but I am disturbed about it. They are pushing and crowding and competing with each other and with everyone else." -- Former U.S. Senator Thomas J. Dodd, Prosecutor at the Nuremberg War Crimes trials.

http://www.projo.com/news/mcharlesbakst/ SE_BAKST_COLUMN_30_09-30-07_CR78R0C.1efbfe6.html

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A FACTUAL APPRAISAL OF THE "HOLOCAUST" BY THE RED CROSS


By NoEvidenceOfGenocide

The Jews And The Concentration Camps:
A Factual Appraisal By The Red Cross.

There is one survey of the Jewish question in Europe during World War Two and the conditions of Germany's concentration camps which is almost unique in its honesty and objectivity, the three-volume Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its Activities during the Second World War, Geneva, 1948.

This comprehensive account from an entirely neutral source incorporated and expanded the findings of two previous works: Documents sur l'activité du CICR en faveur des civils détenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne 1939-1945 (Geneva, 1946), and Inter Arma Caritas: the Work of the ICRC during the Second World War (Geneva, 1947). The team of authors, headed by Frédéric Siordet, explained in the opening pages of the Report that their object, in the tradition of the Red Cross, had been strict political neutrality, and herein lies its great value.

The ICRC successfully applied the 1929 Geneva military convention in order to gain access to civilian internees held in Central and Western Europe by the Germany authorities. By contrast, the ICRC was unable to gain any access to the Soviet Union, which had failed to ratify the Convention. The millions of civilian and military internees held in the USSR, whose conditions were known to be by far the worst, were completely cut off from any international contact or supervision.

The Red Cross Report is of value in that it first clarifies the legitimate circumstances under which Jews were detained in concentration camps, i.e. as enemy aliens. In describing the two categories of civilian internees, the Report distinguishes the second type as "Civilians deported on administrative grounds (in German, "Schutzhäftlinge"), who were arrested for political or racial motives because their presence was considered a danger to the State or the occupation forces" (Vol. 111, p. 73). These persons, it continues, "were placed on the same footing as persons arrested or imprisoned under common law for security reasons." (P.74).

The Report admits that the Germans were at first reluctant to permit supervision by the Red Cross of people detained on grounds relating to security, but by the latter part of 1942, the ICRC obtained important concessions from Germany. They were permitted to distribute food parcels to major concentration camps in Germany from August 1942, and "from February 1943 onwards this concession was extended to all other camps and prisons" (Vol. 111, p. 78). The ICRC soon established contact with camp commandants and launched a food relief programme which continued to function until the last months of 1945, letters of thanks for which came pouring in from Jewish internees.

Red Cross Recipients Were Jews

The Report states that "As many as 9,000 parcels were packed daily. From the autumn of 1943 until May 1945, about 1,112,000 parcels with a total weight of 4,500 tons were sent off to the concentration camps" (Vol. III, p. 80). In addition to food, these contained clothing and pharmaceutical supplies. "Parcels were sent to Dachau, Buchenwald, Sangerhausen, Sachsenhausen, Oranienburg, Flossenburg, Landsberg-am-Lech, Flöha, Ravensbrück, Hamburg-Neuengamme, Mauthausen, Theresienstadt, Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, to camps near Vienna and in Central and Southern Germany. The principal recipients were Belgians, Dutch, French, Greeks, Italians, Norwegians, Poles and stateless Jews" (Vol. III, p. 83).

In the course of the war, "The Committee was in a position to transfer and distribute in the form of relief supplies over twenty million Swiss francs collected by Jewish welfare organisations throughout the world, in particular by the American Joint Distribution Committee of New York" (Vol. I, p. 644). This latter organisation was permitted by the German Government to maintain offices in Berlin until the American entry into the war. The ICRC complained that obstruction of their vast relief operation for Jewish internees came not from the Germans but from the tight Allied blockade of Europe. Most of their purchases of relief food were made in Rumania, Hungary and Slovakia.

The ICRC had special praise for the liberal conditions which prevailed at Theresienstadt up to the time of their last visits there in April 1945. This camp, "where there were about 40,000 Jews deported from various countries was a relatively privileged ghetto" (Vol. III, p. 75). According to the Report, "'The Committee's delegates were able to visit the camp at Theresienstadt (Terezin) which was used exclusively for Jews and was governed by special conditions. From information gathered by the Committee, this camp had been started as an experiment by certain leaders of the Reich ... These men wished to give the Jews the means of setting up a communal life in a town under their own administration and possessing almost complete autonomy. . . two delegates were able to visit the camp on April 6th, 1945. They confirmed the favourable impression gained on the first visit" (Vol. I, p . 642).

The ICRC also had praise for the regime of Ion Antonescu of Fascist Rumania where the Committee was able to extend special relief to 183,000 Rumanian Jews until the time of the Soviet occupation. The aid then ceased, and the ICRC complained bitterly that it never succeeded "in sending anything whatsoever to Russia" (Vol. II, p. 62). The same situation applied to many of the German camps after their "liberation" by the Russians. The ICRC received a voluminous flow of mail from Auschwitz until the period of the Soviet occupation, when many of the internees were evacuated westward. But the efforts of the Red Cross to send relief to internees remaining at Auschwitz under Soviet control were futile. However, food parcels continued to be sent to former Auschwitz inmates transferred west to such camps as Buchenwald and Oranienburg.

No Evidence Of Genocide

One of the most important aspects of the Red Cross Report is that it clarifies the true cause of those deaths that undoubtedly occurred in the camps toward the end of the war. Says the Report: "In the chaotic condition of Germany after the invasion during the final months of the war, the camps received no food supplies at all and starvation claimed an increasing number of victims. Itself alarmed by this situation, the German Government at last informed the ICRC on February 1st, 1945 ... In March 1945, discussions between the President of the ICRC and General of the S.S. Kaltenbrunner gave even more decisive results. Relief could henceforth be distributed by the ICRC, and one delegate was authorised to stay in each camp ..." (Vol. III, p. 83).

Clearly, the German authorities were at pains to relieve the dire situation as far as they were able. The Red Cross are quite explicit in stating that food supplies ceased at this time due to the Allied bombing of German transportation, and in the interests of interned Jews they had protested on March 15th, 1944 against "the barbarous aerial warfare of the Allies" (Inter Arma Caritas, p. 78). By October 2nd, 1944, the ICRC warned the German Foreign Office of the impending collapse of the German transportation system, declaring that starvation conditions for people throughout Germany were becoming inevitable.

In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend. Like the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day.

So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps (Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths, showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).

Not All Were Interned

Volume III of the Red Cross Report, Chapter 3 (I. Jewish Civilian Population) deals with the "aid given to the Jewish section of the free population," and this chapter makes it quite plain that by no means all of the European Jews were placed in internment camps, but remained, subject to certain restrictions, as part of the free civilian population. This conflicts directly with the "thoroughness" of the supposed "extermination programme", and with the claim in the forged Höss memoirs that Eichmann was obsessed with seizing "every single Jew he could lay his hands on."

In Slovakia, for example, where Eichmann's assistant Dieter Wisliceny was in charge, the Report states that "A large proportion of the Jewish minority had permission to stay in the country, and at certain periods Slovakia was looked upon as a comparative haven of refuge for Jews, especially for those coming from Poland. Those who remained in Slovakia seem to have been in comparative safety until the end of August 1944, when a rising against the German forces took place. While it is true that the law of May 15th, 1942 had brought about the internment of several thousand Jews, these people were held in camps where the conditions of food and lodging were tolerable, and where the internees were allowed to do paid work on terms almost equal to those of the free labour market" (Vol. I, p. 646).

Not only did large numbers of the three million or so European Jews avoid internment altogether, but the emigration of Jews continued throughout the war, generally by way of Hungary, Rumania and Turkey. Ironically, post-war Jewish emigration from German-occupied territories was also facilitated by the Reich, as in the case of the Polish Jews who had escaped to France before its occupation. "The Jews from Poland who, whilst in France, had obtained entrance permits to the United States were held to be American citizens by the German occupying authorities, who further agreed to recognize the validity of about three thousand passports issued to Jews by the consulates of South American countries" (Vol. I, p. 645).

As future U.S. citizens, these Jews were held at the Vittel camp in southern France for American aliens. The emigration of European Jews from Hungary in particular proceeded during the war unhindered by the German authorities. "Until March 1944," says the. Red Cross Report, "Jews who had the privilege of visas for Palestine were free to leave Hungary" (Vol. I, p. 648). Even after the replacement of the Horthy Government in 1944 (following its attempted armistice with the Soviet Union) with a government more dependent on German authority, the emigration of Jews continued.

The Committee secured the pledges of both Britain and the United States "to give support by every means to the emigration of Jews from Hungary," and from the U.S. Government the ICRC received a message stating that "The Government of the United States ... now specifically repeats its assurance that arrangements will be made by it for the care of all Jews who in the present circumstances are allowed to leave" (Vol. I, p . 649).

Biedermann agreed that in the nineteen instances that "Did Six Million Really Die?" quoted from the Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its Activities during the Second World War and Inter Arma Caritas (this includes the above material), it did so accurately.

A quote from Charles Biedermann (a delegate of the International Committee of the Red Cross and Director of the Red Cross' International Tracing Service) under oath at the Zündel Trial (February 9, 10, 11 and 12, 1988).

[Fulmen]

It was a very brief summery and now I have you two shaking over-clentched fists

I beg your pardon? Shaking my fists? I simply stated I won't debate with you, and considering my track record I was being uncommonly polite in stating it.

Do I know with absolute certainty that I am wrong and you are right? No, I'm not an historian so I have to rely on the consensus from those who have studied the matter. I'm not denying that others have committed worse acts of genocide, nor do I agree that what happened during WWII should be protected from critical scrutiny. It's simply a matter far to serious for me to debate with random kooks on the Internet.

[ranb]

A single article for you, that I actually highly doubt you will read to completion. But I will provide it nonetheless.

I did.

It is far past time for an international investigation conducted by truly impartial scientists, researchers and scholars into the reality of Auschwitz to properly and as accurately as possible bring history into accord with the facts.

Researchers and scholars so impressive that you cant even be bothered to credit them by name. See the irony here?

Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and 500,000 people died in the entire German concentration camp system (from all causes).

I'm surprised you were not able to argue it all the way down to zero then still blame the Allies instead of the Germans.

The too large percentage of Jewish men and women here will be cited as proof of this charge. Sometimes it seems that the Jews will never learn about these things. They seem intent on bringing new difficulties down on their own heads.

So it is the jew's fault then?

By NoEvidenceOfGenocide

Where did you find this guy? Is he one of those researchers who is too insignificant to name?

The ICRC had special praise for the liberal conditions which prevailed at Theresienstadt up to the time of their last visits there in April 1945.

You know this was a show camp which was the only one the Red cross was allowed to inspect right? Or perhaps you have evidence from the Red Cross that shows they inspected other concentration camps?

In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews.

So if the Red Cross did not stumble upon evidence or the Germans did not offer it up it never existed?

You claim that times were chaotic, yet you site varying death numbers to show that the deaths did not happen at all or that there was no coordinated program to exterminate people who were deemed undesirable by the German leadership. This is typical of people who want to deny anything happened or that someone else was responsible. These are the same tactics used by the 9/11 deniers.

Ranb