open-carry-interaction-w-police

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Should Open Carry be Legal in your State?

Yes.
36
86%
No.
1
2%
Only on Private Land.
1
2%
Only in non-sensitive locations. (not w/i 500' of schools/1000' of airports)
3
7%
Only during certain Activities.
1
2%
 
Total votes: 42

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by RJT » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:29 am

66427vette wrote:Most of the guys who open carry around here are the mall minja types the like to draw attention to themselves or guys looking for trouble to put on YouTube .


Agree 100%
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by ick » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:34 am

poikilotrm wrote:
TROOPER wrote:How... "Leondard Embody" of you.
I don't know who that is, but if you find what I say incorrect or improperly thought out, try using logic and reason to refute what I say. I know that has historically been difficult for you, but try.
Accusing Trooper of being logic-averse. That's rich. What a tool.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by TROOPER » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:30 pm

poikilotrm wrote:
doubloon wrote: But nothing to do with the mindset of the person confronted by the cop I guess? It takes two to tango.

Singling out cops negatively and ignoring the culpability of any other party involved in the situation certainly comes across as bias even if you deny it after you say it.
No. People going about their daily lives, not bothering anyone, but with a weapon on their hip are not in need of being confronted in the first place. Cops will actively seek to interact with open carriers in order to intimidate and harrass them. This isn't bias, this is observable fact and openly stated policy in many cop shops. The only people regularly seeking to provoke violence and disrupt peaceful society are the cops when it comes to open carriers. Carrying does not somehow make the carrier "culpable", as you suggest.

It may take two to tango, but in the event you are open carrying, it only takes action on the part of the cop to destroy a life or lives.

Mindset only applies to acts comitted. A person sitting drinking a cup of coffee in a cafe with a Sig on his hip has his mind on his coffee, most likely. A cop seeking to confront that peacable and law abiding citizen isn't doing so for any other reason than to harass. Your attempt to blame the victim is, as always, repugnant.

Let's follow your mindset though. Given that nearly 100% of violent crimes are committed by people wearing pants, would wearing pants in public, a perfectly legal activity, just like OC, be RS or PC for a stop?

Oh, and in pretty much every state, acting in a manner that is presumptively legal, like say, oh, I don't know, ummm, OC, means that there is zero RS or PC for a stop.

Edited to add: One other thing, CCW/OC people are the single most law abiding demographic in the US. Why do cops then seek to harass them so eagerly?
I typed "Leonard Embody" into Google, and this is what I got:
Image
If you say something I don't understand, or mention a term or topic that I don't understand, I generally make at least a cursory effort to be on the same page as you. That's usually just a Google search away, although sometimes you've mentioned things that required some modest searching of the search-results to find the appropriate information.

The first time I became acquainted with the name Leonard Embody, it was on a thread in this forum where he had an AK pistol, was OC'ing it at a national park, and had painted the tip of it orange, and was basically trolling LEO for a lawsuit. He did similar stunts by wrapping an AR in Kydex, calling it a case, then toting it around downtown and trying to, as passively-aggressively as possible, avoid any contact with police. He's done similar stunts at incompletely installed traffic lights.

I mention him to refute that it is all "on the cop" and their mindset. Furthermore, at least one of Embody's stunts went before a judge who said (paraphrase), "... person who has gone out of their way to appear guilty in order to gain police attention cannot complain when they finally get it." again -- paraphrase.

... and the heck of it is that Embody prefers to video-tape the encounters, and in the ones that I've seen the police have been cordial, and did not appear to be the accelerants in the situation.

I reject your assertion that it is a 100% officer-dependent situation.

-------------- ETA ---------------
My remark to you, Poik, wasn't meant to be a hit-and-run insult. I assumed you knew about Embody given that he had - at least for a while - an active presence on this site, as well as a commonality of interest regarding LEO interactions with the public. Not that I assumed you were best friends, but in such a small community, I assumed you at least knew of his name and why he was modestly well-known.

We're in a different era of ST, one of more civility and so on. There's no need to insult me.

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by tsands974 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:49 pm

Wasn't he the one with the Hello Kitty arsenal?

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by TROOPER » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:21 pm

tsands974 wrote:Wasn't he the one with the Hello Kitty arsenal?
Yes. His forum handle was, "Kwik2Sue". Later he changed it to "Kwikrnu" after he realized that having a lawsuit-happy name made him appear less of a victim and more of a lawsuit seeker.

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by johndoe3 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:43 pm

whiterussian
The law would only require concealing w/i School/Airport Zones. NOT disarmament.
Since both Guv candidates in Texas (R and D) say publicly that they are for passing an Open Carry law in Texas, the people of Texas will need to hash out all these issues as they relate to OC.

1. elementary, middle and high schools; airport terminals; colleges and universities (you hadn't mentioned this last area)

In Colorado with Open Carry, the law prohibits OC on the campuses of elementary, middle, HS, and college/universities campuses. There is no larger exclusion zone (500' or 1000' as you propose for TX).

Meanwhile, CO allows CCW on University campuses with zero issues as far as I know. The lefty professors all wrung their hands saying that there would be blood in the streets, with cats and dogs sleeping together as a result of CCW on college/university campuses. It's been a big zero on any issues--a yawner with no irresponsible incidents. You see the same outcry in the last month by leftist academics in Alaska and Idaho as those States are passing CCW on university campuses laws.

I bring this issue up for TX, because as you hash out the particulars of OC laws, you might want to consider, as part of the OC laws, allowing CCW on college/university campuses, while not allowing OC on them. Same with airport terminals buildings (I agree with your position), only no larger exclusion zones, only the terminal building. However, Congress already decided that the sensitive areas at commercial airports are the gate areas beyond the TSA checkpoints. The rest of the terminal is not a sensitive area (except to local police who want to make it a sensitive area). Therefore, I suspect that there will be a big fight in TX over whether the 'not sensitive' parts of the airport terminal buldings should prohibit OC.

If I remember right, in early 2013 as the Dems in Congress were trying to pass egregious gun-control laws, one that was considered in the Senate was elementary/middle/HS exclusion zones for FFLs. The pro-gun senators and other pro-gun groups brought in maps with proposed exclusion zone marked for many towns across America. It showed that the exclusion zones would outlaw FFLs completely from countless towns across the country. Even the Dems saw the error of their ways with regard to exclusion zones, because the unintended consequences of their proposed exclusion zones was far more massive than they had considered.

whiterussian, Your proposed exclusion zones for elementary/middle/HS in TX for OC are the same as considered in Congress, an arbitrary number (500' or 1000') that would provide no safety benefit, but would have massive unintended consequences. I suggest that for TX, the zone for OC prohibition for elementary/middle/HS is the campus itself. Its worked well in CO and other States.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by whiterussian1974 » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:21 pm

We have allowed CCW by license holder in Universities and non-secure Airport Terminals at least as far back as 1996.
Possession by non-holder is 3rd Degree Felon in restricted areas. Only Class B Misdemeanor to possess in non-article 30.06 areas.

I was just trying to get a feel for consensus in various States. A heavily weighted poll of informed Citizens.
Yes, the 500/1000' Zones are arbitrary. Sometimes progress comes in stages w the populace having to prove responsibility. Most of the civilized world can handle children drinking alcohol. Germans only have speed restrictions near towns and population centers. Those same people have proven that they can handle drinking in small ammounts and driving at 130-180mph.

But Puritan-descended Americans feel that they can't handle most Freedoms. So we have Legislators catering to the vocal few. Just like during other Eras of Prohibition.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by bakerjw » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:50 pm

I got a lot of chuckles out of this link.

http://info-about-leonard-embody-aka-kw ... gspot.com/

Someone has a real hard-on against Leonard and I'm sure that he fumes about it regularly. You hardly had to poke him to get him to give you a thinly veiled death threat.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:36 pm

TROOPER wrote:
-------------- ETA ---------------
My remark to you, Poik, wasn't meant to be a hit-and-run insult. I assumed you knew about Embody given that he had - at least for a while - an active presence on this site, as well as a commonality of interest regarding LEO interactions with the public. Not that I assumed you were best friends, but in such a small community, I assumed you at least knew of his name and why he was modestly well-known.

We're in a different era of ST, one of more civility and so on. There's no need to insult me.
When fired upon, return fire. Your statement seemed insulting, and frankly, it still does. In fact, I dare say your insult was worse than my return, so you win, let's let it go.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by CDAT » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:52 am

I like that it is legal here (WA) but having said that I think for the most part it is not the best idea.

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by silencertalk » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:14 am

whiterussian1974 wrote:That's why they just send a Patrol to the Scene.
They have to respond to all calls. The Terminex guy called the police on me because he saw an airsoft gun in my house (with orange tip and everything), and the police came. Even if it were a real gun, it would have been legal, and the police knew that I had a gun permit. So arguably, they didn't need to come. But they respond to all calls.

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by tsands974 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:52 pm

I find it interesting that the maps shows AR as a gold-star open carry state, while there is no definitive law emplaced regarding open carry. This has caused a lot of dispute in the local media over the past few years, and it is essentially up to each police chief, sheriff and judge as to how they personally interpret the law, as it is extremely vague and does not address open carry specifically. Local CLEOs in my area have stated on the news that they will not prosecute anyone practicing open carry, but again, it is all up to their interpretation of the law. I would never open carry regardless, but anyone who does will be at the mercy of the CLEO- no thanks. Why an open carry law has still not been emplaced is beyond me given the publicity it has received.

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:51 pm

silencertalk wrote: They have to respond to all calls.
Not true in the slightest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v. ... f_Columbia

But they respond to all calls.
Nope. They don't. I can give you a few examples if you like.

What's up with digging up this corpse of a thread?
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by doubloon » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:55 pm

poikilotrm wrote:...
Not true in the slightest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v. ... f_Columbia
...
Great example!

In both those cases the police responded to the call.

Responding and providing protection are two different things.

Just like reading and comprehension.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:22 pm

doubloon wrote: Great example!

In both those cases the police responded to the call.

Responding and providing protection are two different things.

Just like reading and comprehension.

If you had read the judge's decision you would have seen that he said that the cops are under no obligation to protect anyone, to respond in any way, or to even uphold the law as they state in their oath, so yeah, it is.

And if "responding" means showing up and watching, then they aren't really worth a damn, are they?

Here's an even better example; The cops not only didn't respond to pleas for help, they bravely hid themselves away and watched: http://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says- ... ed-killer/

Look man, I know weak minded cop suckers need to believe in their polyester clad heroes, but some sub-normal intellect going through a shake-and-bake school after passing a civil service exam that a tertiary neurosyphillitic chimp could pass doesn't create a badged hero, it just creates a burden for honest people like me to support. Get help. Not from a cop, of course...
Last edited by poikilotrm on Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:23 pm

double tap
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by TROOPER » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:43 pm

silencertalk wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:That's why they just send a Patrol to the Scene.
They have to respond to all calls. The Terminex guy called the police on me because he saw an airsoft gun in my house (with orange tip and everything), and the police came. Even if it were a real gun, it would have been legal, and the police knew that I had a gun permit. So arguably, they didn't need to come. But they respond to all calls.
Poik, is it possible that "they respond to all calls" is referring specifically to the police in the jurisdiction which "silencertalk" resides? Is it also possible that "respond" does not necessarily mean show-up-and-investigate-the-call? If we're going to nit-pick every single thing stated here, then let's go by the words typed, and not the words you choose to infer. IE, he didn't say, "It is the Constitutional Law of every internationally recognized sovereign nation that all police agencies must provide physical presence to every emergency call regardless of individual circumstance." In which case, your quoting of Wikipedia law might be appropriate.

It isn't like you win a toaster-oven for winning an internet argument.

Damnation, man, why are you so angry all the time?

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by doubloon » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:27 pm

We should do that.

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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by ick » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:19 pm

TROOPER wrote:Damnation, man, why are you so angry all the time?
Perhaps the riots in Baltimore did not go as well as he hoped. Can't people see that ALL police are dishonest ALL of the time?

That sure would make me irritable.

I found this old gem from January of 2013....
poikilotrm wrote: NOBODY in my AO is enthusiastic about the cops being around. The same goes for people in Chicago, NYC, New Orleans, Baltimore, and a whole host of other locales. The cops are a far greater threat to an honest decent person than any drug dealer or other scum.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by doubloon » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:33 pm

ick wrote:...
Perhaps the riots in Baltimore did not go as well as he hoped. ...
I believe there is a lot of truth in this for quite a few people. It's kinda sad.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:38 pm

TROOPER wrote:
Damnation, man, why are you so angry all the time?
Not angry. I just can't abide liars, mental deficients, criminals, and people who enthusiastically support criminals and liars.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:40 pm

ick wrote:
TROOPER wrote:Damnation, man, why are you so angry all the time?
Perhaps the riots in Baltimore did not go as well as he hoped. Can't people see that ALL police are dishonest ALL of the time?

That sure would make me irritable.

I found this old gem from January of 2013....
poikilotrm wrote: NOBODY in my AO is enthusiastic about the cops being around. The same goes for people in Chicago, NYC, New Orleans, Baltimore, and a whole host of other locales. The cops are a far greater threat to an honest decent person than any drug dealer or other scum.
I didn't give a damn about Baltimore. I still don't. I absolutely stand by my quote.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by whiterussian1974 » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:36 pm

I'll try to hit a few points from various posts above:

Poiki is correct about Civilian interactions and Public Sentiment in various locales. Yet Public Order MUST be maintained regardless of what the public preference is. If they don't like the way things are run; use the ballot and jury boxes. Those too lazy and selfish to exercise these 2 restrictions on LE deserve what their inaction has allowed.

Admin stating that LE has affirmative duty to investigate ALL calls for Service is baseless. We have Comm Techs and Dispatch Supervisors to perform the initial Point of Contact interview. If the report seems credible and substantive, then we ask them to come to a substation to file a report and bring any evidence they feel substantiates their claims. If Units are available, or Complaint is deemed serious enough to have Ptrl go on Scenel then we dispatch to location for 1st person observations.

But 80%+ of Requests for Service Calls are dismissed as frivolous or non-credible in Houston. Not enough "Skrimps" in my fried rice, only 3/4 slice of cheese on my burger, neighbor insulted me, electronics store refuses to issue refund. All these compose 80%+ of daily 911 calls.

However, Admin stated "respond" to all calls. this could indicate that the Comm Tech answers the 911 call. That in itself is a form of "response," though the term is a bit amorphous.

And Warren_v._District_of_Columbia is a good example of why 2nd amend is so important. We are charged w maintaining Public Order. NOT protecting individual Citizens.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by YugoRPK » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:27 am

If I carry I open carry because I'm hiking or doing something else outdoors and I'm packing a 7 1/2" barrel wheel gun. I really don't see what the controversy is about and to be honest I look at concealed carry different than most people here. I'm not ashamed of carrying a gun and to me it seems highly unlikely that anyone would target me because I'm carrying a firearm. If anything they are going to walk the other way if they see a gun. Most bad guys like to wake up the next morning and robbing or harassing obviously armed people is one way not to get up the next day.. Lots of folks open carry here as a daily practice and no one really looks at them funny. I did recently file for a concealed carry permit in this state although I do have Washington and Utah permits but Oregon doesnt accept anyone elses permit but I really dont try to cover up the fact I'm carrying a gun IF I am carrying. Still don't see the point.
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Re: open-carry-interaction-w-police

Post by doubloon » Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:48 am

YugoRPK wrote:... IF I am carrying. Still don't see the point.
Concealed carry makes sense to bad guys and the fashion conscious. It's hard to get your Gucci on with a 7" wheel gun on your hip.

I've never understood why open carry should be illegal where concealed carry is allowed. If anything I could almost understand why concealed carry might be illegal but that doesn't make sense in inclement weather conditions when heavy outerwear may be required.
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