Young/Goodwin/Kruger Auto X-prize team confirm HHO gas!

[TROOPER]

H2O2 will release more oxygen than H20 for the first cycle but it is unstable and quickly reverts to good old dihydrogen monoxide.
Not that any of this will actually work ...It won't for the reasons listed by GNR . A faster flame front doesnt mean "better" combustion even if the hydrogen would accelerate the flame front. Hydrogen in the presence of oxygen burns SLOWER than a stoichiometric mix of aerosol gasoline and air. Engine efficiency can be increased by increasing the compression ratio using a fuel with a slower burning flame front to avoid detonation while maintaining even combustion pressures and then using a cam and drivetrain profile to take advantage of that increase in power in the range it is produced. For that reason and that reason only there is a possibility that it ...gulp...may actually have some merit although dyno testing is the only real way to determine that. I havent seen any of that. When I was building race engines I ran a LOT of engines on dynamometers and I know the BSFC number will tell you everything you need to know. There my be some change but I expect it will be negligible or within the statistical margin of error. That's with an engine dyno. Chassis dyno's are only useful if fuel metering equipment is installed and a manual or full lockup converter automatic transmission is used. Even OBD2 equipment only estimates fuel consumption and is not reliable in determining Brake Specific Fuel Consumption.

I'm sucked back into this thread. I hate myself for responding.

The above isn't really true since the whole mixture would be getting saturated with free electrons. That H2O2 would split into HHOO, just as H20 splits into HOH. I'd think this process could even be slightly more efficient since the that last "O" is already so willing to jump ship from regular hydrogen peroxide. Now its true that when the regular O jumps, it pairs up with another O and makes O2 - and I don't know if it can be split further once its a gas and free of electrolysis's influence. But it shouldn't matter because O2 burns fine on its own. Its a zero-sum game because the overall system to put that O in the H2O is still effort somewhere.

[YugoRPK]

H2O2 will release more oxygen than H20 for the first cycle but it is unstable and quickly reverts to good old dihydrogen monoxide.
Not that any of this will actually work ...It won't for the reasons listed by GNR . A faster flame front doesnt mean "better" combustion even if the hydrogen would accelerate the flame front. Hydrogen in the presence of oxygen burns SLOWER than a stoichiometric mix of aerosol gasoline and air. Engine efficiency can be increased by increasing the compression ratio using a fuel with a slower burning flame front to avoid detonation while maintaining even combustion pressures and then using a cam and drivetrain profile to take advantage of that increase in power in the range it is produced. For that reason and that reason only there is a possibility that it ...gulp...may actually have some merit although dyno testing is the only real way to determine that. I havent seen any of that. When I was building race engines I ran a LOT of engines on dynamometers and I know the BSFC number will tell you everything you need to know. There my be some change but I expect it will be negligible or within the statistical margin of error. That's with an engine dyno. Chassis dyno's are only useful if fuel metering equipment is installed and a manual or full lockup converter automatic transmission is used. Even OBD2 equipment only estimates fuel consumption and is not reliable in determining Brake Specific Fuel Consumption.

I'm sucked back into this thread. I hate myself for responding.

The above isn't really true since the whole mixture would be getting saturated with free electrons. That H2O2 would split into HHOO, just as H20 splits into HOH. I'd think this process could even be slightly more efficient since the that last "O" is already so willing to jump ship from regular hydrogen peroxide. Now its true that when the regular O jumps, it pairs up with another O and makes O2 - and I don't know if it can be split further once its a gas and free of electrolysis's influence. But it shouldn't matter because O2 burns fine on its own. Its a zero-sum game because the overall system to put that O in the H2O is still effort somewhere.

Don't do it. I'm telling you just don't bother.

[tmix]

I want to see actual miles driven and fuel used.

Who cares what you want to see?

People with more than one brain cell who don’t believe everything they see on the internet is true…

Anyone who takes that video at face value and does not question the validity of the statements made should have their head examined.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, I don’t know, but I know how I could find out and it doesn’t include looking at the computer readout. I’d rather use simple metrics to determine mpg than rely on a computer that is giving info on a modified engine and intake system for which it was never designed. (if this is how you are determining your mileage increases with the HHO generator, no wonder you think it works. Please tell me you can do the simple math and find mileage with miles driven/gallons used.)

Keep Austin weird, Douche-bag.

[TROOPER]

Don't do it. I'm telling you just don't bother.

I'm not. No worries on that. I'm just saying that theoretically, if H20 were an actual fuel, then H2O2 would be a more energy-dense fuel; kind of like the difference between gasoline and diesel.

Hell no, I'm not doing it.

Or did you mean just ordinary electrolysis with Hydrogen Peroxide? I won't be doing that either, got no loose wires laying around, or a real desire to do that anymore.

Heh - one time I was whipping up some Hydrogen in an inverted test-tube, and I couldn't remember if the positive wire yielded Hydrogen, or Oxygen, so I poked a lit match into the bottom of the tube and got a really interesting *pop*. I guess that was the Hydrogen side.

[YugoRPK]

No. I'm just saying don't bother arguing with the guy. Of course you arent going to use the HHO. That would be stupid.

Don't do it. I'm telling you just don't bother.

I'm not. No worries on that. I'm just saying that theoretically, if H20 were an actual fuel, then H2O2 would be a more energy-dense fuel; kind of like the difference between gasoline and diesel.

Hell no, I'm not doing it.

Or did you mean just ordinary electrolysis with Hydrogen Peroxide? I won't be doing that either, got no loose wires laying around, or a real desire to do that anymore.

Heh - one time I was whipping up some Hydrogen in an inverted test-tube, and I couldn't remember if the positive wire yielded Hydrogen, or Oxygen, so I poked a lit match into the bottom of the tube and got a really interesting *pop*. I guess that was the Hydrogen side.

[wolf]

I dont know if this gas things work in cars ,or not

BUT i DO know that when they used to "cook" gas out of coal in the older days
they did spray water into the very hot coal
that DID increase the output of useble gas
the water was broken down , and the hydrogen did rearrange somehow

and in resent time , in Japan the water from the reactor was so hot, that it was broken down to hydrogen and oxygen , and NOBODY can say that there wast a big explosion as a result of that

the water WAS the fuel for the explosion
it just takes a lot of energy to split it

[GlockandRoll]

People with more than one brain cell who don’t believe everything they see on the internet is true…

Anyone who takes that video at face value and does not question the validity of the statements made should have their head examined.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, I don’t know, but I know how I could find out and it doesn’t include looking at the computer readout. I’d rather use simple metrics to determine mpg than rely on a computer that is giving info on a modified engine and intake system for which it was never designed. (if this is how you are determining your mileage increases with the HHO generator, no wonder you think it works. Please tell me you can do the simple math and find mileage with miles driven/gallons used.)

Keep Austin weird, Douche-bag.

Name calling, meh... you kind-of lose me there.
You added nothing to the post, you just made a demand, so what, who cares?

If on-demand Hydroxy gas combustion enhancement did not work, this company would be operating under total fraud as it is publicly traded. http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/index.php ... Itemid=116

[TROOPER]

Name calling, meh... you kind-of lose me there.
You added nothing to the post, you just made a demand, so what, who cares?

If on-demand Hydroxy gas combustion enhancement did not work, this company would be operating under total fraud as it is publicly traded. http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/index.php ... Itemid=116

They wouldn't sell penis-enlargement pills if they didn't work either. They wouldn't sell 'gas magnets' that polarize the fuel and give you dramatically enhanced MPG. They wouldn't sell vortex generators that you throw in your intake to 'twist' the air into more efficient combustion. They wouldn't sell F'n pet rocks if they weren't really pets.

If you got more out of the system than what you put into it, then please explain why no one has put together a simple Honda generator with one of these bubbler things? You put in gasoline, it puts out electricity - use that electricity for a bubbler to produce so much Brown's gas that you power your house. Or better yet - the Holy Grail here would be to have the gasoline generator start up, right? Then hooked to a bubbler, right? Then have the bubbler pump that Brown's gas back into the generator. IT WON'T RUN. It isn't producing enough energy to power itself.
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[wolf]

Name calling, meh... you kind-of lose me there.
You added nothing to the post, you just made a demand, so what, who cares?

If on-demand Hydroxy gas combustion enhancement did not work, this company would be operating under total fraud as it is publicly traded. http://www.ronnmotors.com/cms/index.php ... Itemid=116

They wouldn't sell penis-enlargement pills if they didn't work either. They wouldn't sell 'gas magnets' that polarize the fuel and give you dramatically enhanced MPG. They wouldn't sell vortex generators that you throw in your intake to 'twist' the air into more efficient combustion. They wouldn't sell F'n pet rocks if they weren't really pets.

If you got more out of the system than what you put into it, then please explain why no one has put together a simple Honda generator with one of these bubbler things? You put in gasoline, it puts out electricity - use that electricity for a bubbler to produce so much Brown's gas that you power your house. Or better yet - the Holy Grail here would be to have the gasoline generator start up, right? Then hooked to a bubbler, right? Then have the bubbler pump that Brown's gas back into the generator. IT WON'T RUN. It isn't producing enough energy to power itself.
Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. Its a power drain. 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still i dont say the car thingy works

but related to your above statement
how did they gain more gas by injecting water during the gas making process

they did heat coal in a closes thingy , which releases gas
the gas was collected and sold for household consumption

the roasted cooled coal remains was sold as fuel for stoves etc,

then they did discover that by injecting water they would gain MORE usable gas

So where did that EXTRA gas come from

this is something that was/is used ,, and works

maybe , just maybe the same or something like this is happening in the cars

think carbon + hydrogen = what

[GlockandRoll]

They wouldn't sell penis-enlargement pills if they didn't work either. They wouldn't sell 'gas magnets' that polarize the fuel and give you dramatically enhanced MPG. They wouldn't sell vortex generators that you throw in your intake to 'twist' the air into more efficient combustion. They wouldn't sell F'n pet rocks if they weren't really pets.

If you got more out of the system than what you put into it, then please explain why no one has put together a simple Honda generator with one of these bubbler things? You put in gasoline, it puts out electricity - use that electricity for a bubbler to produce so much Brown's gas that you power your house. Or better yet - the Holy Grail here would be to have the gasoline generator start up, right? Then hooked to a bubbler, right? Then have the bubbler pump that Brown's gas back into the generator. IT WON'T RUN. It isn't producing enough energy to power itself.Its a power drain.

Your reading comprehension skills suck.
We have been through this. Petrol #2 ICE engines do NOT have an efficient combustion process, at best probably 20-25%, this helps dramatically increase the flame speed and raises the octane rating significantly. It's a combustion enhancement.

I can show you decades of research where the entire scientific community understands the combustion enhancement of Hydrogen into an combustion chamber, and you would have to agree it helps.

If you have a more complete burn, more energy is extracted out of the same unit-volume of fuel that would otherwise be unburned.
Just like you are wrong about turbo chargers adding efficiency, you are wrong about this.

Again, Ronn motors is here in town and they are publicly traded, and have these units in cars all across the country. They can prove it works, I've seen them work. You have no experience with them, you are just going off a hunch that is based on flawed logic.

Your argument makes you sound marginally retarded and if you keep it up you will only align others against you.

[GlockandRoll]

Furthermore TROOPER, I had this running in the Jimmy I sold 3 years ago and offered to drive it to you and let anyone inspect it that you wanted to.. so you could see it, I got a consistent 15-16% increase in fuel efficiency in it, and offered to prove it to you.. but you refused my invite, an offer that would cost you nothing; yet you continue to act like a child about it, how is that fair?

[GlockandRoll]

still i dont say the car thingy works

but related to your above statement
how did they gain more gas by injecting water during the gas making process

they did heat coal in a closes thingy , which releases gas
the gas was collected and sold for household consumption

the roasted cooled coal remains was sold as fuel for stoves etc,

then they did discover that by injecting water they would gain MORE usable gas

So where did that EXTRA gas come from

this is something that was/is used ,, and works

maybe , just maybe the same or something like this is happening in the cars

think carbon + hydrogen = what

wolf, NASA published a technical brief in the 70's documenting the combustion enhancement of hydrogen in an ICE, so nobody really argues that it doesnt help. The argument seems to be that the extra load on the battery and charging system off-sets the benefits. The GM truck we tested in had a 110 amp alternator and the most amperage we drew with our cells was less than 30, heat is the problem. Low-voltage electrolysis needed to produce HHO/Hydroxy gas is actually done via a pulse width modulator.

Wait till gas his $5/gallon, these will be common place in DIY's garages I'd wager.

[wolf]

still i dont say the car thingy works

but related to your above statement
how did they gain more gas by injecting water during the gas making process

they did heat coal in a closes thingy , which releases gas
the gas was collected and sold for household consumption

the roasted cooled coal remains was sold as fuel for stoves etc,

then they did discover that by injecting water they would gain MORE usable gas

So where did that EXTRA gas come from

this is something that was/is used ,, and works

maybe , just maybe the same or something like this is happening in the cars

think carbon + hydrogen = what

wolf, NASA published a technical brief in the 70's documenting the combustion enhancement of hydrogen in an ICE, so nobody really argues that it doesnt help. The argument seems to be that the extra load on the battery and charging system off-sets the benefits. The GM truck we tested in had a 110 amp alternator and the most amperage we drew with our cells was less than 30, heat is the problem. Low-voltage electrolysis needed to produce HHO/Hydroxy gas is actually done via a pulse width modulator.

Wait till gas his $5/gallon, these will be common place in DIY's garages I'd wager.

My post was to Tropper

I dont know if the car thingy works
but DO know you can get more out of a carbon based fuel by adding water , and or hydrogen

something tropper dont understand , just like his claim that if a turbo was so good every carmaker would use them ,, only ,,, every carmaker IS using them

he is blinded , i dont know why,or by what , but refusing to see you thingy , is almost religious denial

not answering a post that point out a mistake in his assumption that the car makers DIDNT use turbos in most cars really makes it hard

ad to that , that a non turbu still has to get the air into the cylinder by using the same engine as the turbo , only it is before the energy is wasted out the pipe , and claiming that is better

if i didnt know better , i would assume he was a democrat

he might be right , but refusing to see things we DO know is true ,, is really strange

and everything based on that will be based on false assumptions

[GlockandRoll]

Wolf.. the quote in my signature says it all!

Here's another one I like..

"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." - Ayn Rand

[wolf]

How about just because you cant explain it , dosnt mean it dosnt exist

scientist DO know sprites exist , but they can not explain them

Just because somebody dont understand how a car works
dosnt mean that said person can not drive that car

if it works ,thats sometimes enough

imagine if the people in the stone age had troppers mind

How does fire work

??????????????

we dont know , so we dont try to use it

[JohnInNH]

There is only so many BTUs in a gallon of fuel..

I love the way a turbo makes power. I have had both turbo's and superchargers and prefer the turbo. In a diesel they are just plain stupid strong. May not have that neck breaking 1/4 mile snap a gas supercharger has, but the roll on and torque is mystical magic feeling.

My truck has enough power to hurt it's self. I guess its silly to have more power than the drive train can support, but with my super computer fuel management system I keep it from doing any damage. (my foot)

Hill goes up.. both the boost and EGT go up. Hills disappear. It's not til I drive my gas burner do I realize how steep the hills really are.

Even better is at elevation.. When crossing the Rocky mountains when regular aspirated cars are suffocating my truck pulls just like she does at sea level, walking away up the hills like nothing.

But... it takes fuel to make power. My mods do increase the MPG but if I go fast or play with the power it uses more fuel.

Playing with intake restriction, exhaust restriction, injector timing, boost, injector spray pattern, and rail pressure you can get a fairly efficient diesel.

I'm sure the Majors truck makes more than my Cummins, but mine's set up for MPG and power. It actually gets the best MPG at 72 mph. (other than a silly 1200 rpm in 5th lower at a crawl) But in 6th upper at 1800 - 2000 rpm it has a fantastic speed to MPG efficiency, at 21 -22 mpg. Not bad for a 3/4 ton truck with a cap and plow mount.

My TDI VW gets 49.9 mpg at 70-75 MPH You can make some serious tracks while saving fuel. I might break 50 MPG at 55 but for the lousy 1 mpg I would rather save 10 hrs drive time on my long vacation drive. That's 10 less hrs of exposure time.. making going FASTER SAFER.... I also don't nod off when I am going 75 .. while 55 is like taking sleeping pills.

The turbo D likes some resistance. It makes the motor work a little making it a little more efficient. That's why the speed to MPH ratio does not suffer as much as a regular aspirated gas burner. The MPG curve is higher and flatter, not dropping off like a rock like a gas burner.

So if you take long trips a turbo D in worth the extra $ IMHO. It lets you go fast w/o using a lot of fuel AND gives you a ton of torque for roll on top gear passing.

After driving a Chipped VW TDI and reprogrammed Cummins it's so depressing driving gas burners that have hardly any torque and suck fuel when making the power to climb hills and pass.

Buying a new car is very depressing. They don't make cars that = the older TDI and Cummins B59s Less MPG and insanely more complected let alone the $. No more cheep high powered efficient cars/trucks anymore (at least here in the US.)

Granted cars have come a LONG way.. a 300 HP muscle car of today can get 30 mpg.. in 1969 it would be 400 HP at 12-15 mpg. The new cars make good power have good MPG , handle better, and go faster but cost a lot.

My TDI is close to end of life. I have no clue what to replace it with... a 35 mpg car is a must.. 40 would be better. NO hybrids!

[wolf]

So what engine has you WV
is it the Audi 1,9 liter ? thats what in my friends Scoda

about a gallon only having so and so many btus
true , but if you get sot out the exhaust pipe , then that is UNBURNED carbon

just like when they make gas out of coal , the rest product (coke) is carbon , unburned fuel , still containing energy

adding hydrogen or water during the making will produce MORE gas
more than the gas + the hydrogen , some of the carbon that would not be transfered to gas will now be made into gas ,, gas you can burn

if you can make that happen in a car engine , then you will get more mpg and less sot
actually very logical

[GlockandRoll]

There is only so many BTUs in a gallon of fuel..

I love the way a turbo makes power. I have had both turbo's and superchargers and prefer the turbo. In a diesel they are just plain stupid strong. May not have that neck breaking 1/4 mile snap a gas supercharger has, but the roll on and torque is mystical magic feeling.

My truck has enough power to hurt it's self. I guess its silly to have more power than the drive train can support, but with my super computer fuel management system I keep it from doing any damage. (my foot)

Hill goes up.. both the boost and EGT go up. Hills disappear. It's not til I drive my gas burner do I realize how steep the hills really are.

Even better is at elevation.. When crossing the Rocky mountains when regular aspirated cars are suffocating my truck pulls just like she does at sea level, walking away up the hills like nothing.

But... it takes fuel to make power. My mods do increase the MPG but if I go fast or play with the power it uses more fuel.

Playing with intake restriction, exhaust restriction, injector timing, boost, injector spray pattern, and rail pressure you can get a fairly efficient diesel.

I'm sure the Majors truck makes more than my Cummins, but mine's set up for MPG and power. It actually gets the best MPG at 72 mph. (other than a silly 1200 rpm in 5th lower at a crawl) But in 6th upper at 1800 - 2000 rpm it has a fantastic speed to MPG efficiency, at 21 -22 mpg. Not bad for a 3/4 ton truck with a cap and plow mount.

My TDI VW gets 49.9 mpg at 70-75 MPH You can make some serious tracks while saving fuel. I might break 50 MPG at 55 but for the lousy 1 mpg I would rather save 10 hrs drive time on my long vacation drive. That's 10 less hrs of exposure time.. making going FASTER SAFER.... I also don't nod off when I am going 75 .. while 55 is like taking sleeping pills.

The turbo D likes some resistance. It makes the motor work a little making it a little more efficient. That's why the speed to MPH ratio does not suffer as much as a regular aspirated gas burner. The MPG curve is higher and flatter, not dropping off like a rock like a gas burner.

So if you take long trips a turbo D in worth the extra $ IMHO. It lets you go fast w/o using a lot of fuel AND gives you a ton of torque for roll on top gear passing.

After driving a Chipped VW TDI and reprogrammed Cummins it's so depressing driving gas burners that have hardly any torque and suck fuel when making the power to climb hills and pass.

Buying a new car is very depressing. They don't make cars that = the older TDI and Cummins B59s Less MPG and insanely more complected let alone the $. No more cheep high powered efficient cars/trucks anymore (at least here in the US.)

Granted cars have come a LONG way.. a 300 HP muscle car of today can get 30 mpg.. in 1969 it would be 400 HP at 12-15 mpg. The new cars make good power have good MPG , handle better, and go faster but cost a lot.

My TDI is close to end of life. I have no clue what to replace it with... a 35 mpg car is a must.. 40 would be better. NO hybrids!

I hear you there man... my 05 E320 CDI merc gets 41+ mpg consistently at highway speeds and it currently holds the world speed endurance record, averaging 140mph for 100000 miles straight. I had some empty highway to play with and set the cruise control at 100mph and was averaging 31.8 mpg after 10 miles.

what we need are DIESEL series hybrids, like LincVolt, the subject of this thread!

[GlockandRoll]

Granted cars have come a LONG way.. a 300 HP muscle car of today can get 30 mpg.. in 1969 it would be 400 HP at 12-15 mpg. The new cars make good power have good MPG , handle better, and go faster but cost a lot.
!

Actually, LincVolt has over 500hp and gets close to 100mpg, and even the 500hp Z06 vette gets over 30mpg.
I've got friends with 750+hp to the rear wheels w/twin turbo LS motors that get close to 30 on the highway.... I could only imagine what a small efficient turbo diesel would do on those cars with some performance mods like we see on the Cummins or Duramax, but in 4 liter smaller lighter V8s?