Car dealers and non-factory original parts

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BWT
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Post by BWT »

rsilvers wrote:
BWT wrote:I still want to see Service Life, as far as how many tens of thousands of miles.
You will never ever ever find a number for that. Too many variables from car weight to how hard you break.

Our Au Pair seems to not start to brake until she is what I feel dangerously close to an intersection and then brakes hard. Every time.
True, it's too abstract a variable. That's a great driver too, :lol:.

Nothing like those White Knuckle Rides.

I'm thinking I'm going to consider organics whether they came from the Factory or not that way.
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Post by silencertalk »

BWT wrote:Also, if yours didn't come with organics, would you reconsider after this?

ETA: I would at least consider organics after this information.
If I found out that my originals were semi-metallic, then I would not change to organic.

However, I have been google searching and have not had much luck in finding cars which come with semi-metallic pads.

And the various enthusiast-marketed street pads don't make it clear what they are, but they must be carbon (organic) as they don't mention metal.

Basically the metal makes them brake worse at street temps and better at race temps.
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Post by silencertalk »

These are organic pads, and claim to be factory standard on Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati:

http://www.pagid-brake-pads.co.uk/produ ... -based.php
A Carbon based high performance road compound with a medium friction level.

Designed as the ultimate user friendly road material to satisfy the demands of prestige sports car manufacturers such as Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati. Capable of driving effectively around town with low noise and control, then capable of stopping the same vehicle from 200mph on the test track.
If true it is evidence that organic is the way to go for even high performance use on the street.
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lilfuzzybuny
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Post by lilfuzzybuny »

rsilvers you are mislead in pads sir. organic or fibrous pads DO NOT out perform carbon or semi metallic compounds. Lamborghini uses a carbon ceramic Kevlar compound. Porsche uses ceramic for the high end and semi's for the low end. your sti is suppose to come with semi's.


if you want the very best for your sti get ceramic's. if you dont want to spend as much get the semi's. organic is not to be confused with performance, unless its a high tech resin ceramic mixture.

and do yourself a huge favor a (disk)brake job is only 5 lugnuts, 2 bolts on the caliper, an aplication of grease and a c clamp. IF the rotors you get them machined down at a MACHINE SHOP thats familiar with automotive work.

http://cpwstore.carpartswholesale.com/c ... =9183&sv=0
Last edited by lilfuzzybuny on Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by silencertalk »

http://www.pagid-brake-pads.co.uk/mater ... ations.php

[quote]However subject to the requirements of “Regulation 90â€
Last edited by silencertalk on Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by silencertalk »

lilfuzzybuny wrote:just get ceramic >.<! geesh
They don't grip as well. They are hard and there is less friction. Biggest benefit is less dust.
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Post by lilfuzzybuny »

rsilvers wrote:
lilfuzzybuny wrote:just get ceramic >.<! geesh
They don't grip as well. They are hard and there is less friction. Biggest benefit is less dust.

have you ever been in a car that you know for a fact had ceramic pads, then drove it yourself ?
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Post by Fallschirmjaager »

Outsydlooknin75 wrote:Just because its a factory part does not mean that it is a better part than the aftermarket part.
This. Buying Subaru parts for 400% markup is literally no different than buying a stripped S&W M&P15 lower for 400% markup over its CMT equivelant, except that the M&P lower will have S&W's logo on it, and your "dealer" parts won't have Subaru anything on them, because they're the exact same parts that are sold aftermarket elsewhere.
Outsydlooknin75 wrote:Now on rotors and such I would junk the stockers for a set of aftermarkets in a heart beat but I would run some Cryoed rotors and a set of EBC pads as well. ESPECIALLY on a performance car.
I agree, except EBC pads are REALLY dirty, and I don't think that's what he's looking for. Also you can get the same or better performance out of Porterfields or Mintex pads without having nasty baby-puke looking brake dust. Either way, you and I might not mind but I think he's looking for something a lot more streetable.
Outsydlooknin75 wrote:Slotted rotors YES, Cross drilled rotors NO. The slotted rotors allow for the gas build up between the pads and the rotors to bleed off and not form a cushion between the pad and rotor. Dimpled rotors are ok, cross drilled rotors have a tendency to crack under excessive use.
Dead right, and slotted rotors have the added advantage that they resurface your pads a little under heavy braking, which does decrease pad life a little but also makes it virtually impossible for your rotors to build up those deposits and "warp."

For a street car that you don't ever track, there's really no reason you can't use the organic pads, and that's almost definitely what your car came with, even if it is the top of the line. That's not what I would do, but it's definitely doable. That being said, don't pay extra for dealer parts when you can get what is literally the exact same s--t elsewhere for a fraction of the cost. Look at your pads yourself, the ones that are on there now (if you can still read the name.) They won't say Subaru, all that s--t is outsourced. Same for the disks, they probably won't have a manufacturer name on them at all but they'll have like a "headstamp" that you can cross referance. Subaru forum boards should have people who can tell you what the stock rotors are too. In fact I think they're Brembo, but I could be wrong.
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Post by silencertalk »

No, but why would that matter? Driving one set of pads could never be the basis for comparison.

They seem to have the lower cold performance of semi-metallic combined with the low high-temp performance of organic. Worst of both worlds.

What do you get in return? Less dust and higher cost.
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Post by silencertalk »

Fallschirmjaager wrote:Buying Subaru parts for 400% markup is literally no different than buying a stripped S&W M&P15 lower for 400% markup over its CMT equivelant, except that the M&P lower will have S&W's logo on it, and your "dealer" parts won't have Subaru anything on them, because they're the exact same parts that are sold aftermarket elsewhere.
You can only say that because you know S&W and CMT are the same. I did not know which aftermarket brake parts are the same as Subaru ones. For sure some are the same or better. I could ask around in forums and read reviews to be sure it was not a Model-1 Sales equivalent.
Last edited by silencertalk on Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by silencertalk »

Fallschirmjaager wrote:That being said, don't pay extra for dealer parts when you can get what is literally the exact same s--t elsewhere for a fraction of the cost. Look at your pads yourself, the ones that are on there now (if you can still read the name.) They won't say Subaru, all that s--t is outsourced.
Yes, I should have found equivalent aftermarket parts. I think I bought EBC Greenstuff for my Mercedes. I think they were dusty. I don't think I had noise. I did stuff like that in the past, but I was trying to get away from aftermarket stuff. But it is just brake pads, not major parts.
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Post by flip »

We always quote and use OE first, period. The only times we quote aftermarket is if the customer wants the work done but can't afford the repair as quoted. We will give them the option to use aftermarket and advise them of the no labor warranty those parts carry. With the non OE stuff we get burned about 25% of the time with defective parts/squeaks/rattles etc. IF you have to use non OE Napa usually is the best.
As far as brakes OE vs. aftermarket. In the US the OEM, in my case Ford has to develop brake lining material based on NHTSA guidelines, can't use the same pad composition for a focus and F550. That means we have several dozen different pad materials that are engineered to be quiet, stop the car according to standards and have good wear properties, aftermarket does not have to meet any of these standards. They use one formula for 80% of the vehicles they make pads for, feel safe?
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Post by silencertalk »

So you feel factory pads cost more (than low-end aftermarket pads), in part, because they are obligated to meet higher standards of performance and verification?
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Post by flip »

I don't feel that, I know it for fact. They have 10X the R&D in developing pad material than any of the aftermarkets. The pads that come out on new models have to be retested and recertified even if there is no structural changes made. Now, a '08 Explorer may use the same pad as the '09 model because it met standards but not always. Ford OE makes their own pads, Ford also owns Motorcraft who makes replacemet parts for Ford vehicles. Motorcraft pads are 30-50% cheaper because they are not under obligation to meet the same standards as the parent company. MoCraft may use one pad composition on 5 different car lines, less R&D=cheaper parts. MoCraft pads also make more noise, do not wear as well as factory and feel rougher when braking. We will use them if a cutomer absolutely damands a super cheap job but as a rule we quote OE. A typical OE pad, machine rotors, clean and lube slides pins, etc. will run our customers right around $225/axle.

ETA: Our reps. over they years since Mocraft came out with brake pads have been all over our asses to use them because they felt we lost market share to the indies becuase of the cost of the total job. Our experience has been you lose more business buy putting on cheap s--t that doesn't perform as well as OE. Save $50 bucks and customer is in 3 times complaining of noise and pulls with mocraft. We eat the labor and slap on factory pads, problems gone.
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Post by silencertalk »

Funny. So the Ford factory would not consider buying their own MC parts to put in a car on the line because they do not meet the minimal standard.

So how does this relate to premium aftermarket pads? Do you feel those are as good or better than factory pads, or not really because there is no specific R&D and testing in the exact model car?

I know when I built a 1911, I had to return lots of parts because once I got them on the frame they did not fit as expected. And I don't even mean parts that are expected to need fitting. E.g. some safety selectors did not even cover the hole in the frame. When a company picks which parts to put on their 1911, they probably test a dozen parts to decide. Some don't fit well. Some may have broken at 6000 rounds. Only they know.

This seems to be like comparing an original M4 bolt carrier group to a random catalog part. The original uses certified material. They use a more expensive material. They test and certify the product in a way that costs more to do. I would not rebuild a real M4 with generic AR parts. Does that mean there are no good bolt carrier groups from other companies? Of course there are. But if you let a dealer decide on their own, without telling you, to use another brand - they will not pick one that has had the same testing as the real M4 part.
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Post by Twinsen »

I feel so dumb. When buying pads I just got like the "omg super good" ones without knowing anything about them. They're loud and give off piles and piles of dust. Two days after cleaning they are dirty again. Must be metallic? If only I paid attention.
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Post by flip »

The MC line is Ford's attempt to stay in the aftermarket biz, not just oem. If you have to replace plugs or wires on your car, you can't get OEM, they are Motorcraft. We use MC parts for warranty repairs as they meet OE standards, it is a win win for Ford.

As far as aftmket pads go I have used them on my personal vehicles when OE was not available or I was trying to cheap out. Can you tell a difference, maybe, maybe not. Most of the public is not going to do 10 60-0 stops and measure the distance in a row. A lot of guys go ceramic because of brake dust issues or they are performance drivers and want the heat and fade resistance ceramic offers over organic. The downside is that using real ceramic, not this semi-ceramic s--t people mistake for the real deal, will wear your rotors out about the same time the pads are done. I have used some aftermarkets that are fine and wear great some that caused pulls and noise. There are always trade offs, less noise=softer pad=shorter life=more dust. Longer pad life=harder pads=faster rotor wear=more noise.
MC did a training session with some of the guys here and you would s--t if you saw some of what goes into "modern" brake pads (copper, walnut hulls, horse hooves, binders, steel etc...). Asbestos was the best material far and beyond, it combined good wear and heat resistance, low noise, cancer. Too bad for the latter.
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Post by pneumagger »

Aren't most "factory/OEM" parts not made by the factory at all?
You can generally get the actual actual maker's branded part much cheaper than the OEM branded part.
The only advantage to buying an "OEM part" is even if manufactures change that part number and proper function are forever guaranteed.

For example at one time, Gates made "Mitsubishi OEM" timing belts for the DSM line of cars.
Gates also makes "Gates brand" belts as well as the "PCI brand" of belts. Heck, even the # stamped on it was the same.
The Gates and PCI belts are much cheaper than the OEM Mitsu belt... despite being the same product.

Same thing with things like bearings. Car manufacturers do not make bearings.
They buy them from places like Timkin, stick them in "Subaru/OEM Boxes" and jack up the price.
Windows, wheels, brake pads, etc.... most are contracted out and made to meet a certain spec and simply branded by the car company.
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Post by silencertalk »

pneumagger wrote:Aren't most "factory/OEM" parts not made by the factory at all?
Yes but that does not mean anything. Really WHO makes something should never matter. Porsche could contract a random Chinese company to make a 911 Turbo and it would be exactly the same. This is because the engineering drawings fully define exactly how to make the product right down to what temperature to cure the paint at.

So the original maker will contract the manufacture of parts, but it is to a certain spec. That is no way means the other company will sell the exact same thing themselves at a much lower price. Of course they might and in some cases do. But also no doubt in some if not most cases steps are skipped that the aftermarket company feels will not be noticed.

They original factory might specify certified steel. The aftermarket will buy uncertified steel. The original maker might say to heat-treat for 4 hours at a certain temp. The aftermarket will decide 1 hour in the oven is close enough for the stuff they sell on the side. The original maker might say to check every part with a certain test. The aftermarket company might test 1 in 100 or none at all. The original maker might bevel the edges of the brake pad. They aftermarket version might skip that because it might add 15 cents to the cost to make.
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Post by silencertalk »

pneumagger wrote:The Gates and PCI belts are much cheaper than the OEM Mitsu belt... despite being the same product.
They might be. But how do you know that the PCI version is not virgin rubber and then vulcanized for 30 minutes and then stress tested whereas the Gates version might be recycled rubber vulcanized for 15 minutes and untested?

I don't see how you could know without working there.

Using the same part suffix is just to help the customer shop. It is probably why LaRue tries to use the same or similar numbers as ARMS even though it is not the same product.
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Post by flip »

Yes, a lot of parts are outsourced and made to a certain spec.
Along with that most of the design and engineering is captive for the OEM. Where as Gates may make a belt for Mitsu that has 5 layers of nylon the "aftermarket" may on have 3 layers. I tried buying a bearing for a steering column on an old boss 302 I was restoring, local brg. place showed it as a good number but couldn't sell it because it was still a captive part, go figure. I'ts like bearings for my BP mill, I can get regular old class 3 abec bearings and they will fit and the machine will run but may have play in it. If I want what came in it I have to go with the class 5 abec's or 7's (which are like 4 times more) to make sure the mill will cut as good as new. There are many aftermarket parts that are as good as oem but there are also a lot that are flat out JUNK.
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Post by Outsydlooknin75 »

Hmmm ya know I dont think that Mr Robert buys any store brand groceries. Often times they come off the same lines as the name brand stuff and are just rebranded in the store brand label.

Same thing happens with auto parts, there are only 3 major makers of shocks, everything else is simply rebranded into the other brands.

tires are the same way, there are only X number of tire makers, same tread, same rubber, just a different "house brand".

Look at 3 buck chuck from Trader Joes ...... its name brand wine that is just rebanded for cheaper.
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Post by silencertalk »

Outsydlooknin75 wrote:Same thing happens with auto parts, there are only 3 major makers of shocks, everything else is simply rebranded into the other brands.
The maker does not matter. Only the engineering specifications.

Some premium OJ company can make the store brand and their own name brand to two different specs.

I buy store brands when I like them. I test things. I don't have the ability to test brake pads though.
Last edited by silencertalk on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by pneumagger »

Very true Robert.
When parts shopping though, if you search well, look to see that all specifications meet or exceed the original OEM spec if the part is not an OEM spec part.
On something like a newer Porche or BMW, this might be difficult. On somethnig like a 5+ year old mitsubishi it's easier.
On my 17 year old DSm... its just easy :)
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