Car dealers and non-factory original parts

[gunn24]

The pads you want are (Performance Friction Carbon Metallic) brand.

[BWT]

The pads you want are (Performance Friction Carbon Metallic) brand.

Since you're educated, or at least seem knowledgeable in subject, out of curiousity's sake.

Are Organic better or Semi-Metallic?

[silencertalk]

Carbon metallic is another way of saying semi-metallic.

According to what I read, they will have more stopping power than organic, but will wear the rotors faster, have more dust, and more risk of noise.

[silencertalk]

Are Organic better or Semi-Metallic?

Well that article said organic are better if you wife will drive the car and semi metallic are better if you want high performance and are willing to live with noise, dust, and more wear on the rotors.

I think I want organic. I don't feel like my braking has ever been limited by the pads. If anything, the ABS kicks in due to tire slip. I would rather have less risk of noise, longer life, etc.

If I had a GT-R and would take it on a track, I think I would want semi-metallic.

However, if I were to learn that many higher performance cars come OEM with semi-metallic, then I would probably want that as replacement as I don't think any cars come with brake noise problems.

[gunn24]

Are Organic better or Semi-Metallic?

Well that article said organic are better if you wife will drive the car and semi metallic are better if you want high performance and are willing to live with noise, dust, and more wear on the rotors.

I think I want organic. I don't feel like my braking has ever been limited by the pads. If anything, the ABS kicks in due to tire slip. I would rather have less risk of noise, longer life, etc.

If I had a GT-R and would take it on a track, I think I would want semi-metallic.

However, if I were to learn that many higher performance cars come OEM with semi-metallic, then I would probably want that as replacement as I don't think any cars come with brake noise problems.

Hi performance cars such as yours need hi performance parts. Putting organic pads on that car is like deploying with a YHM can and or accsessorries.

[BWT]

Are Organic better or Semi-Metallic?

Well that article said organic are better if you wife will drive the car and semi metallic are better if you want high performance and are willing to live with noise, dust, and more wear on the rotors.

I think I want organic. I don't feel like my braking has ever been limited by the pads. If anything, the ABS kicks in due to tire slip. I would rather have less risk of noise, longer life, etc.

If I had a GT-R and would take it on a track, I think I would want semi-metallic.

However, if I were to learn that many higher performance cars come OEM with semi-metallic, then I would probably want that as replacement as I don't think any cars come with brake noise problems.

I'm not married, but I get "Drivin' Miss Daisy" jokes a lot.



I think Organic's the road I need to go down, or at least look into... in the next 40-50,000 Miles.

So I'll deal with the squeek for awhile.

I didn't see a difference in Semi-Metallic. I think I need to do some auto research, find out the pro's and con's.

We'll see. I'm on the fence about doing it myself or not, honestly, I'll probably just get the dealer to do it and live with standard (R&P) rates.



I think 300-400$ is fair for just brake services, right? We'll see.



I wonder what the real price of Front and Rear Brakes are, I get the feeling the other site was going to take my money and run.

[silencertalk]

Are the OEM STi pads organic?

Are M5 factory pads organic?

Are CTS-V factory pads organic?

I have not been able to find out with google.

I would certainly not do organic if the original pads were something else. On the other hand, if the originals were organic, then I think I want the same.

[silencertalk]

I think 300-400$ is fair for just brake services, right? We'll see.

I wonder what the real price of Front and Rear Brakes are, I get the feeling the other site was going to take my money and run.

A dealer brake job for a typical passenger car is probably $600.

The real price for the Subaru parts is what you saw on that website. If you want cheaper parts, go to NAPA.com and check. Then add in $250-$300 for labor.

[BWT]

Are the OEM STi pads organic?

Are M5 factory pads organic?

Are CTS-V factory pads organic?

I have not been able to find out with google.

I would certainly not do organic if the original pads were something else. On the other hand, if the originals were organic, then I think I want the same.

True. I still don't know the Service Life on Organics versus the other types.

They seem to be very tight lipped about the brakes on their car, I wonder what a email to Subaru, Cadillac, and BMW would yield?

[silencertalk]

I didn't see a difference in Semi-Metallic. I think I need to do some auto research, find out the pro's and con's

Pros and cons:

http://essex.sharpdot.cc/learning-cente ... brake-pads

[gunn24]

Are the OEM STi pads organic?

Are M5 factory pads organic?

Are CTS-V factory pads organic?

I have not been able to find out with google.

I would certainly not do organic if the original pads were something else. On the other hand, if the originals were organic, then I think I want the same.

I would guess no but I do know the guy at Discount Tire said Manufactures order tires with softer compounds so the ride is better and the handling as well when the car is new. So I would think (hope) they went with real brake pads. Are the rotors slotted or crossed drilled?

[gunn24]

This sums it all up for me.


No pad deposits, judder, or vibration- The propensity for uneven pad deposits, or what many people call "warped rotors," increases dramatically when you plan to drive your car hard at times, but err towards a milder pad compound for comfort. You think to yourself, "Well I'm only going to get them really hot once in a while." Whether done once or twenty times, organic compounds tend to smear on the rotors when pushed towards their maximum operating temperature, sometimes causing irreparable damage to both the rotors and pads. Yes, you can ruin your rotors the first time this happens, a costly lapse in judgment. Don't be the guy who says he'll only try crack once. If you plan to bomb away on your pads once, you'll do it more than once. If you think you'll ever push your pads to a temperature above the recommended range for a given compound (even once), go with a compound capable of handling those higher temperatures

[BWT]

I didn't see a difference in Semi-Metallic. I think I need to do some auto research, find out the pro's and con's

Pros and cons:

http://essex.sharpdot.cc/learning-cente ... brake-pads

Right, I read that article, I just want more information besides one article, to find out the true difference.

I get the impression that Organics will wear faster than Semi-Metallic, seeing that they're not as heat resistant to high heat and they also seem to have a little bit more issues with compression, etc, it's not stated anywhere, but my concern is headed towards reduced service life at this point.

But, I'll reference an idea I said earlier, if Semi-Metallics wear out Rotors faster, but have a little longer service life, which ends up costing more, whereas you end up with less rotor wear and if you have the same service life out of Organics, why not go organic?

Also from a performance standpoint, I got the impression that Organics would be able to normal driving conditions well, with a few pluses.

We'll see. Looks like I need to find out

A) What's the Service Life of both of the brake pads typically

and more importantly,

B) What do the manufacturer's use and why.

ETA:

No pad deposits, judder, or vibration- The propensity for uneven pad deposits, or what many people call "warped rotors," increases dramatically when you plan to drive your car hard at times, but err towards a milder pad compound for comfort. You think to yourself, "Well I'm only going to get them really hot once in a while." Whether done once or twenty times, organic compounds tend to smear on the rotors when pushed towards their maximum operating temperature, sometimes causing irreparable damage to both the rotors and pads. Yes, you can ruin your rotors the first time this happens, a costly lapse in judgment. Don't be the guy who says he'll only try crack once. If you plan to bomb away on your pads once, you'll do it more than once. If you think you'll ever push your pads to a temperature above the recommended range for a given compound (even once), go with a compound capable of handling those higher temperatures

Is that consistent across all the Organic Pads, if so, then that's all I really need to know, I guess I can deal with the Squeek. I'll do a bit more research, see what I can find, I don't know when, but I'll try to find the time.

[silencertalk]

Obviously most makers use organics. The question for me is, are higher performance cars semi-metallic from the factory?

If the THOSE makers use organics, it is for one of these reasons:

1. They are cheaper.
2. They are quieter.
3. They have less dusk.
4. They wear the rotor more slowly.

I suspect it is #2. If a person buys a new car and the brakes squeak, a high percentage of those people will bring it to the dealer and demand they make it stop.

99.9% of people will consider squeaking a defect even though I am now learning it is normal for high-performance racing pads.

[Transformers0704]

hey get a honda / toyota very low maintance
if you get pissed at the high cost at the dealer you can always change it your self SAVE lots of $$$.

[silencertalk]

Is that consistent across all the Organic Pads, if so, then that's all I really need to know, I guess I can deal with the Squeek. I'll do a bit more research, see what I can find, I don't know when, but I'll try to find the time.

I don't think that is all you need to know. If you found out the M5 came with organic pads, would you still be concerned that they could not handle aggressive braking? Would you really want to replace them with something more aggressive?

It is all relative.

[BWT]

Is that consistent across all the Organic Pads, if so, then that's all I really need to know, I guess I can deal with the Squeek. I'll do a bit more research, see what I can find, I don't know when, but I'll try to find the time.

I don't think that is all you need to know. If you found out the M5 came with organic pads, would you still be concerned that they could not handle aggressive braking? Would you really want to replace them with something more aggressive?

It is all relative.

I was going to do the "I'll do a bit more research" before I began arguing with someone who apparently works in that industry.

But no, I didn't think it was all I needed to know.

I don't know enough about the Temperatures it takes to melt brake pads and warp rotors, or enough about the technologies to really have an informed opinion at this point, you know?

I've read one article. Though it seems credible and legitimate, still a lot of blanks to fill with Service Life, what temperatures do they melt, warp, etc, what's applicable to me because what grade metal are my Rotors?

Are they Steel, are they Aluminum? Cross-Drilled, etc, etc.

I still don't know what they come with from the Factory, etc. if my experience is isolated with the Brand I have, or is it the type of Pad(Semi-Metallic, Ceramic, Organic, etc.).

Lot of information to gather. I'll find time sooner or later.

[silencertalk]

Cheapies also have a tendency to warp easily and provide inconsistent braking.

Rotors never warp but if they cannot shed or absorb heat then they might overhead the pads and cause deposits.

[silencertalk]

TThe propensity for uneven pad deposits, or what many people call "warped rotors,"

Yes. Rotors never warp.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_wa ... disk.shtml


Bad advice:
http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... 601dede442

People often say get ceramic but don't say they have less grip. They make it sound like they are better and the only downside is higher cost.

[silencertalk]

http://forums.macresource.com/read.php?1,724785,724877

"Last year I went through two sets of cheap rotors - both warped within 2 months. I invested in a set of ventilated Brembo's and they've been great. Forget the cheap Chinese etc crap and go for something that has a quality name."

Rotors don't warp but if his cheap rotors were not ventilated they could have caused pad deposits more easily.

[silencertalk]

"All of the current generation of "metallic carbon", racing pads utilize mainly adherent technology as do many of the high end street car pads and they are temperature stable over a much higher range. Unfortunately, there is no free lunch and the ultra high temperature racing pads are ineffective at the low temperatures typically experienced in street use.

Therefore - there is no such thing as an ideal "all around" brake pad. The friction material that is quiet and functions well at relatively low temperatures around town will not stop the car that is driven hard. If you attempt to drive many cars hard with the OEM pads, you will experience pad fade, friction material transfer and fluid boiling - end of discussion. The true racing pad, used under normal conditions will be noisy and will not work well at low temperatures around town."

There you go. Semi-metallic have more grip when kept hot in racing, but from a cold temp as used in normal driving, they are often WORSE. It is called 'cold bite.'

[BWT]

"All of the current generation of "metallic carbon", racing pads utilize mainly adherent technology as do many of the high end street car pads and they are temperature stable over a much higher range. Unfortunately, there is no free lunch and the ultra high temperature racing pads are ineffective at the low temperatures typically experienced in street use.

Therefore - there is no such thing as an ideal "all around" brake pad. The friction material that is quiet and functions well at relatively low temperatures around town will not stop the car that is driven hard. If you attempt to drive many cars hard with the OEM pads, you will experience pad fade, friction material transfer and fluid boiling - end of discussion. The true racing pad, used under normal conditions will be noisy and will not work well at low temperatures around town."

There you go. Semi-metallic have more grip when kept hot in racing, but from a cold temp as used in normal driving, they are often WORSE. It is called 'cold bite.'

Right, I referenced the cold bite as a pro of organics in one my first posts.

I just want to know what Temperature Organics "Melt and Smear".

Would I have been drifting for awhile at this point, maybe doing some Rally racing?

http://www.cshyde.com/Moreproducts/threads.htm

Break strength 5 times greater than steel wire. Bonded. Multifilament. Maximum temperature of 600F.

They mentioned Kevlar as a component in Organics, so we could assume that the heat threshold is around 600 degrees, maybe a little bit more in the brakes.

So I guess it's safer to assume that we're not going to be utilizing our brakes enough to generate enough friction to hit 600 degrees or higher.

I still want to see Service Life, as far as how many tens of thousands of miles.

ETA: That's also what the Company rates Kevlar's Maximum temperature, it might be a conservative number, I'd assume it would be, as Kevlar's also used in Fire Jackets, etc, and it can hit 600+ in a burning house, without too much problem.

I don't know what percentile composes the brake pads, but, that's enough for now.

[silencertalk]

"IThe question remains, what pads should be used in high performance street cars - relatively low temperature street pads or high temperature race pads? Strangely enough, in my opinion, the answer is a high performance street pad with good low temperature characteristics. The reason is simple: If we are driving really hard and begin to run into trouble, either with pad fade or boiling fluid (or both), the condition(s) comes on gradually enough to allow us to simply modify our driving style to compensate. On the other hand, should an emergency occur when the brakes are cold, the high temperature pad is simply not going to stop the car."

He says to use street pads. I think that means organic.

To find out more, let's see what they sell for products listed as street pads:

http://www.stoptech.com/Products/high_p ... pads.shtml

"Pagid RS 4-2-1 (Black) is a high-performance street compound with good fade characteristics and high cold friction. The most comfortable medium-friction sport compound, rotor friendly, and OE on various Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, Bugatti, Audi, and Corvette (Callaway) models. Suitable for street and light track use."

[silencertalk]

I still want to see Service Life, as far as how many tens of thousands of miles.

You will never ever ever find a number for that. Too many variables from car weight to how hard you break.

Our Au Pair seems to not start to brake until she is what I feel dangerously close to an intersection and then brakes hard. Every time.

[BWT]

"IThe question remains, what pads should be used in high performance street cars - relatively low temperature street pads or high temperature race pads? Strangely enough, in my opinion, the answer is a high performance street pad with good low temperature characteristics. The reason is simple: If we are driving really hard and begin to run into trouble, either with pad fade or boiling fluid (or both), the condition(s) comes on gradually enough to allow us to simply modify our driving style to compensate. On the other hand, should an emergency occur when the brakes are cold, the high temperature pad is simply not going to stop the car."

He says to use street pads. I think that means organic.

To find out more, let's see what they sell for products listed as street pads:

http://www.stoptech.com/Products/high_p ... pads.shtml

"Pagid RS 4-2-1 (Black) is a high-performance street compound with good fade characteristics and high cold friction. The most comfortable medium-friction sport compound, rotor friendly, and OE on various Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, Bugatti, Audi, and Corvette (Callaway) models. Suitable for street and light track use."

Now the only question remains to me, is Service Life comparisons, it seems that Organic is the best way to go.

Also, if yours didn't come with organics, would you reconsider after this?

ETA: I would at least consider organics after this information.