Another TSA Security Goof? Details of Air Marshal Guns

[700PSS]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/tsa-secur ... 793&page=1

Law Enforcement Officials Blast Release of Sig Sauer Pistol Info
By ANNA SCHECTER
Dec. 23, 2009 —

With the approval of the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), the Sig Sauer gun company has released specific information about the model of pistol that Federal Air Marshals will soon be carrying data that both current and former Air Marshals say puts the Marshals and air passengers at risk.

"This is the last thing you want to give to anyone who wants to carry out an act of terror," said Frank Terreri, president of the Federal Air Marshal Agency, a trade group representing the Marshals. "Anyone who wants to take over a plane can be proactive and research that type of weapon, basically know everything about that weapon before going on the plane," said Terreri. "You really don't want to give that playbook out to your enemy."

John Adler, president of the National Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which represents officers from more than 65 federal agencies, including the Federal Air Marshal Service, said the gun information was part of "an alarming pattern of disclosures" by the TSA that only serves to jeopardize the safety of the [Air Marshals]."

The disclosure comes on the heels of a massive security breach in which the TSA published online an improperly redacted manual that revealed sensitive information about air passenger screening.

The Sig Sauer company announced via press release late last week that it had signed a multimillion dollar contract to equip the Air Marshals with its .357 SIG caliber P250 Compact pistol. In the release, the company said the "innovative design concept of the P250 pistol is developed around a serialized modular frame and fire control assembly."

Bud Fini, vice president for marketing at Sig Sauer, defended the decision to publicize the deal. Fini said the release that he sent out was approved by the Air Marshals. "They changed it slightly, but there was no sensitive information in it," said Fini. "I don't think it's that big of a deal."

Weighing the Risk to the Air Mashals
Adler said that he disagrees: "The agency should make every effort to protect not only the anonymity of the Air Marshals but the equipment they use and their operational protocol."

A spokesperson for the TSA told ABC News that the release of the information did not create a risk for Marshals and travelers. "Publicizing the type of firearm a Federal Air Marshal uses does not provide a security advantage for those with ill intentions," said Greg Soule.

He also defended Sig Sauer's decision to publicize its contract. "The information in the Sig Sauer press release is based on publicly available information," said Soule. When asked where the information was publicly available prior to the press release, Soule said he meant that information about the Marshals' previous firearm had been published in the media, that the new contract was available via FOIA request to the public, and that Sig Sauer was not barred from disclosing data about the new firearm. A second TSA spokesperson was blunter. "It's not SSI," said Nelson Minerly, referring to the designation Sensitive Security Information. "I don't have to come up with excuses as to why it's not SSI." Much of the data revealed in the improperly redacted screening manual had been deemed SSI.

But Terreri, who became an Air Marshal after 9/11, said he believed an Air Marshal who revealed the same gun info as the Sig Sauer company would have been in serious trouble. "If a Federal Air Marshal had disclosed the same information, they would be fired for disclosure of SSI -- it would be a breach of our rules," Terreri said, adding that "there's no upside to releasing this information."

Critics say that identifying the specific gun carried by air marshals makes it easier to impersonate a Marshal and, more importantly, lets would-be attackers know what they're up against. They can learn the gun's capabilities, and how to operate it should they seize one in an ambush.

Terreri said that would-be attackers now can "determine if the weapon has any type of safety mechanism, how many rounds each magazine can hold, and the typical characteristics of the weapon." A former Air Marshal said the disclosure was a boon to potential hijackers. "Now they know which exact model to train with when they ambush a Marshal trying to stay alert in the most boring job in law enforcement." The TSA's Soule countered that Marshals are trained to retain their weapons in such situations. Said Soule, "The training and marksmanship [of marshals] is more sensitive information than the type of gun that they have." The improperly redacted Standard Operating Procedures screening manual that the TSA posted contained closely guarded secrets like special rules for diplomats and CIA and law enforcement officers. The 93-page document shows sample CIA, Congressional and law enforcement credentials that experts say would make it easy for terrorists to duplicate.

Damaging Information Leaked, Officials Said
The improperly redacted areas indicate that only 20 percent of checked bags are to be hand searched for explosives and reveal in detail the limitations of X-ray screening machines.

But officials say the most damaging information in the unredacted manual is what size electrical wire can go undetected by airport screening machines -- valuable information for a bomb maker.

TSA Acting Administrator Gale Rossides told Congress last week that the TSA manual posted online was outdated and therefore posed no security threat to holiday travelers.

[silentobsession]

I was already under the impression that they used Sig pistols in .357 SIG. I thought it was common knowledge 'round these parts.

[aquajon]

I don't see how that's even a legitimate concern. The would be terrorist/hijacker is about as likely to be injured or killed in a car accident on the way to the airport then actually encounter an air marshal on the flight they are attacking.

(CNN) -- Of the 28,000 commercial airline flights that take to the skies on an average day in the United States, fewer than 1 percent are protected by on-board, armed federal air marshals, a nationwide CNN investigation has found.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/03/25/si ... index.html

In 2007, 2.5million people were injured in car accidents out of the estimated 300 million inhabitants of the USA.
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

So, less than 1% of flights are guarded by air marshals and less than 1% of people are injured in car accidents. It's statistically about the same.

[renegade]

I was already under the impression that they used Sig pistols in .357 SIG. I thought it was common knowledge 'round these parts.

They do. I think it is a 228 (not good on Sig models). I have shot an actual Air Marshal Gun. That would probably make Adler's head explode.

Of course, if it was such a security issue, why is this guy doing an interview about it? He should just STFU and let it go over unnoticed. Now everybody knows.

More likely he has a agenda and does not like Sig or the 250 and hopes to cause them problem.

[aquajon]

I was already under the impression that they used Sig pistols in .357 SIG. I thought it was common knowledge 'round these parts.

They do. I think it is a 228 (not good on Sig models). I have shot an actual Air Marshal Gun. That would probably make Adler's head explode.

P250
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar ... /712289995

[renegade]

I was already under the impression that they used Sig pistols in .357 SIG. I thought it was common knowledge 'round these parts.

They do. I think it is a 228 (not good on Sig models). I have shot an actual Air Marshal Gun. That would probably make Adler's head explode.

P250
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar ... /712289995

That is the new gun. The current one I shot was either a 228 or 229. I do not know the difference.

[aquajon]

They do. I think it is a 228 (not good on Sig models). I have shot an actual Air Marshal Gun. That would probably make Adler's head explode.

P250
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar ... /712289995

That is the new gun. The current one I shot was either a 228 or 229. I do not know the difference.

I knew they had been using P239 (similar to the P229 but slimmer single stack design). Article above says they also used P226's. Again similar to the P229 but P226 is larger. Think Glock 17 vs 19. It's possible they had additional guns not listed however.

[CKOD]

its a DAO gun with no safety... wtf is there for ackmed to learn? any asshole who has watched a movie could probably figure it out. 1) rack slide, 2) pull trigger.

Only thing they gained was knowing they need to wear IIIA body armor if they want to wear some, not exactly easy to conceal

[Blaubart]

This is the last thing you want to give to anyone who wants to carry out an act of terror...

I get amused when people abouse the phrase "this is the last thing...".

I've told you a million times to stop exaggerating. I'm sure there are a s--t ton of more sensitive details that you wouldn't want to give to someone bent on terrorism, making this information not the last thing you want to give to them. By saying so, he's essentially saying that it would be less of a risk to provide them with the full identities and photos of all the air marshalls, or an accurate schedule of what planes they'll be flying on.

But it's not quite as dramatic to say "This is the seventh to last thing you want to give to anyone..."

Fuckin' drama queens.

[Hush]

This is the last thing you want to give to anyone who wants to carry out an act of terror...

I get amused when people abuse the phrase "this is the last thing...".

I've told you a million times to stop exaggerating. I'm sure there are a s--t ton of more sensitive details that you wouldn't want to give to someone bent on terrorism, making this information not the last thing you want to give to them. By saying so, he's essentially saying that it would be less of a risk to provide them with the full identities and photos of all the air marshal's, or an accurate schedule of what planes they'll be flying on.

But it's not quite as dramatic to say "This is the seventh to last thing you want to give to anyone..."

Fuckin' drama queens.

There, fixed it for you.

Much adieu about nothing.

[JohnInNH]

WOW big security leak. Like this makes ANY difference at all.

[Blaubart]

...air marshal's...

There, fixed it for you.

Much adieu about nothing.

Why is there an apostrophe in there?

Worst spelling nazi EVER!

[Hush]

...air marshal's...

There, fixed it for you.

Much adieu about nothing.

Why is there an apostrophe in there?

Worst spelling nazi EVER!

I had to fix the word "abuse" also Hey when you get old and have nothing better to do then to watch movies, gather news, take meds along with labored breathing and getting older well................
I stopped pressing the wife's buttons a while back, even arguing with her get's old after awhile.

[SFCat66]

It's a 229. Never had the 226.

A personally owned 239 is approved for non-duty use. There was a agency issued 239 but it had many problems which never were determined what caused the faults and were quietly taken back up. I believe there are only a few still out there.

The 230/232 is the only approved off duty weapon.

Not many people internal to the FAMS are happy about the P250 selection.

It's a marginally adequate firearm for the FAMS. The FAMS Executive Management has never released the testing protocol to the rank and file, so there are serious reliability concerns stemming from the P239 incidents.

There are serious concerns about the transition and training from the 250 from the Classic series. Longer travel, no reset, increased between shot times.

The FAMS have a reputation as a agency with significant shooting ability, and has the distiction of having many world class shooters in our employ. We do many overt operations that attract the attention of the public and many shooters talk with us about the various firearms. Any person that sees a FAM on a VIPR Operation can easily see and identify the duty firearm.

One HAS to wonder why the decisions made regarding the 250 selection were done in the manner they were.

[Ben B.]

Why select a caliber that is rumored as "the best penetrator" for use on airplanes?

Actually, why select .357 Sig at all? Kickbacks?

[1911pilot]

I always wondered why .357 Sig. Everyone on board will be deaf after one round, also isn't it a much better at penetration than 9mm?

The part about helping them figure out how to use a Double action gun (DAK, but really close) was really funny. If they were really worried about that they'd use 1911's or better yet P7's.

[doubloon]

It's a 229. Never had the 226. ...

This.

229R (I think) if anyone wants to get picky but always .357 Sig and .357 Sig probably for "barrier" penetration ... defeat layered clothing, light body armor ... s--t like that

Sure sure why not +P+ 9mm ? Who knows ...

[Diomed]

Why select a caliber that is rumored as "the best penetrator" for use on airplanes?

Actually, why select .357 Sig at all? Kickbacks?

Rumor had it that since it's what Secret Service uses, and Air Marshal bigwigs are former SS, they gotta follow the leader.

Take that for what it's worth.

[1911pilot]

I would think that penetration would be a bad thing in a pressure vessel.

[Twinsen]

Yeah, I'd have figured frangible .45 would be a better choice.

[SFCat66]

Old style 229.

There was some talk about the 229R as being an interim replacement and/or selection. A weapon mounted light has been asked for repeatedly, but the "what-if, OH NOES" brigade seems to win out over the few that demonstrate via scenarios and real world activities that certain equipment and application therof works better. There is also a serious amount of "if I didn't think of it, or it didn't orginate with us" then that technique, tactic or equipment improvement is ignored.

The .357 Sig has never been fully explained or justified as to why it's the FAM caliber of choice. There is some element of truth to the early formation and current crop of senior management being prior USSS.

It is a good USSS protective detail caliber, as well as having good overall performance, but is it really the best round for the FAMS?

There has never really been any determination of what terminal performance we require, other than the multiple attacker scenario based off the 5 assailant 9/11 style. The .357 Sig seems to have the best one shot stop and incapacitation track record amongst recorded LE shootings, so that's one positive factor.

In the aircraft, it will inflict some major damage, from hearing damage to possible over penetration of the target into other pax.

So, without the testing, without the expert knowledge, the liability is "perceived" to be less.

BTW, Tererri is an idiot looking to be the next CNN talking head regarding FAM issues, and FLEOA is generally clueless.

[JohnInNH]

357 Sig the round I love to hate. Belongs in the pet peeve section.

The 10mm is more of a 357 mag than the 357 sig, and the 9x23 IS the "357 MAG" of the 9 mms (147 gr at 1300+ FPS)

Old but reliable: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf Ft lbs has very little to do with the performance.

40 S&W, 10 mm and .45 ACP and 45 ACP +p, even good quality 147 gr HP 9mm ammo is performing well. I switched to the 147 gr 9mm HP over the lighter rounds (Ranger Bonded) due to the better penetration through clothing AND still expanding well.

To bad the Winchester 9mm MAG did not get a partner like Springfield, Kimber, STI, and CZ .. What the 357 sig should have been: http://www.burnscustom.com/showarticle. ... AreWe.php3

But I digress

Bottom line .. controlled expansion w/o jacket separation .. bullet dia, and penetration.

In short barrel pistols "no replacement for displacement." Bottle neck cartridges may work and make sense in single shot pistols but they don't belong in a semi auto self-defense pistol. IMHO You loose efficiency and gain the disadvantages of the bottleneck with the short neck.

[ROFuher]

Scully & Mulder let out the Sig secret a long time ago.

[silencertalk]

357 Sig has the best intermediate barrier penetration.