Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in God?

yes
64
66%
no
33
34%
 
Total votes: 97

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bikefreek
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:13 pm

doubloon...does your logic circumvent the logic of the guy that literally WROTE THE BOOK ON LOGIC?





and page 8!

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:41 am

bikefreek wrote:
doubloon wrote:...

OK ill bite...if there is no evidence of god what am i supposed to do? what should my standpoint be? If I feel there is a lack of evidence proving the existance of god... should i automatically accept the possibility? Sure Ill except the possablility whatever thats fine...the point is they wont accept the possibility that its all a sham. Ive never once said that the god theory is impossible...ive only said the EVIDENCE that is available has led me to think its improbable. So for you to state that i have faith in his nonexistance is infactual.
Accepting the possibility puts you squarely in the realm of science and fact.

Yes, some will not accept the either the possibility of existence or non-existence, these people's lives are generally ruled by emotion and drama.

Technically you said the lack of evidence leaves you no choice but not to believe in him, you didn't say it led you to think it's improbable. Belief without proof or evidence is faith.

If you had ever been reasonable before this point we would never have had the conversation about faith.

But now you are attempting to change your words and you can't because it's too easy to scroll back and see what you really said. Deny, deny, deny only works if there is no record.

You're only lying to yourself.

What color are the robes in your church of non-belief? Is your holy water wheat or malt based?
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:56 am

Accepting the possibility puts you squarely in the realm of science and fact.

Yes, some will not accept the either the possibility of existence or non-existence, these people's lives are generally ruled by emotion and drama.

Technically you said the lack of evidence leaves you no choice but not to believe in him, you didn't say it led you to think it's improbable. Belief without proof or evidence is faith. "In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence." - Introduction to Logic, Copi, 1953, Page 95

If you had ever been reasonable before this point we would never have had the conversation about faith.

But now you are attempting to change your words and you can't because it's too easy to scroll back and see what you really said. Deny, deny, deny only works if there is no record.

You're only lying to yourself.

you have yet to address the writings of the person that literaly wrote the book on logical thinking....and i am still waiting....

What color are the robes in your church of non-belief? what are the colors of your robes?....
doubloon wrote:Undecided.

You can't prove he doesn't exist and I have no proof he does.

I believe in things that have proofs.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:43 pm

bikefreek wrote:...
doubloon wrote:Technically you said the lack of evidence leaves you no choice but not to believe in him, you didn't say it led you to think it's improbable. Belief without proof or evidence is faith.
bikefreek wrote:"In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence." - Introduction to Logic, Copi, 1953, Page 95
...
The only thing more cool on a web forum than the guy who tries to prove he's smarter than everyone else in the discussion by listing his (alleged) qualifications is the guy that quotes books he's never read.

The least you could do the next time you try quoting a book you never read is to not present it as if it were posed as a conclusion in the context you found it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

Maybe quote a little more of that Wiki article next time, it won't carry any more weight but it will at least be more to read and therefore possibly take longer to dismiss.

It might also help if, when scrambling over the internet to find support for your failed argument, you didn't cut and paste text from the #1 hit on the google search. If I had to scroll down a few pages to find it I might have given up.

I believe another appropriate name for the logic (evidence of absence) you like to apply to your arguments is non sequitur.

At least the denials are getting more creative now.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:41 pm

I dont even know what your arguement is....you said in your first post that there is no evidence that god exists or doesnt and that you belive in things that have proofs.

please tell me how that is different from what i have been saying.

If you are trying to make a point why dont you just make your fucking point already.

Ive stated my posistion, and ive stated my reasoning behind it.

You on the otherhand insist on rambling on about the word faith as if it has any real bearing on my view of the existance of god.

If you have a valid point to make by all means cut the s--t and make it.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:38 pm

bikefreek wrote:I dont even know what your arguement is...
It's fairly simple.
bikefreek wrote:you said in your first post that there is no evidence that god exists or doesnt
Incorrect.
bikefreek wrote:and that you belive in things that have proofs.
Correct
bikefreek wrote:please tell me how that is different from what i have been saying.
You said you believe he doesn't exist because you have no proof.
bikefreek wrote:If you are trying to make a point why dont you just make your fucking point already.
My point is your belief is based in faith.
bikefreek wrote:Ive stated my posistion, and ive stated my reasoning behind it.
You say reasoning, I say rationalization, rationalization is the foot soldier of the faithful.
bikefreek wrote:You on the otherhand insist on rambling on about the word faith as if it has any real bearing on my view of the existance of god.
Your view is based on faith.
bikefreek wrote:If you have a valid point to make by all means cut the s--t and make it.
You have faith god does not exist.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:17 pm

So are you saying that because there is no proof god exists or doesnt, that i should not form an opinion?

Are you trying to claim that my opinion on gods existance is somehow a religion in its self?

You imply that im somehow at fault for coming to the conclusion that god doesnt exist do to a lack of evidence that he does. Truth is, the only sane conclusion to come to is to not believe. why in the lack of evidence should i entertain the idea? To say that the idea cant be ruled out until actual evidence to support it is found is rediculous.

read: Russell's teapot

what faith is my view based on?

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Selectedmarksman » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:24 pm

I'll chime in once more just for fairness. This does not stand, logically.
You have faith god does not exist.
Faith is not required to be absent the belief in something. There are tons of things you are presently unaware of that you don't believe in, but you don't require faith to be absent a belief in them. You do not have faith that Barney the Dinosaur isn't real. Poor example, there is plenty of evidence that he isn't. Okay, how about a purple manatee named Larry who has tea with the Queen of England every second Thursday. You don't have faith that he doesn't exist.

In short, to say that you have faith something doesn't exist because you lack faith or proof that it does exist is a non sequitur.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:42 pm

Selectedmarksman wrote:... how about a purple manatee named Larry who has tea with the Queen of England every second Thursday...
That dude gets pissed when you call him a sea cow.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:55 pm

What if you say to him "See here cow."?

Faith, by definition, is the firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Something, by definition, is almost anything ... a prune, a concept, a statement, a question or even a thought (technically a concept too :-P).

bike firmly believes there is no god even though he does not have proof there is no god (and never will). The "something" in this sentence is the concept that there is no god. bike believes in the concept there is no god but has no proof of the concept there is no god. bike has faith in the concept there is no god.

Russell's teapot is the same thing, it's not helping you, some guy claims there's a teapot that exists in space which cannot be observed. Somebody else says "that's unpossible, there can't be a teapot out there because I can't see it and we don't have a way to observe it so the teapot doesn't exist".

For all we know a teapot may have been launched out of earth's gravitational pull when Krakatoa blew and floated around in space until it got captured in an orbit or maybe the aliens chucked a bunch of stuff out an airlock because they had too much weight to achieve light speed and a teapot happened to be in the jetsam.

To say there is no teapot in space just because you can't observe it is silly, there may very well be a thousand teapots out there.

A man of science might say "maybe there's a teapot in space, I don't know without proof".
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by SRM » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:59 pm

God screwed us all, you just don`t know it yet.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:12 pm

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Russell's teapot

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:05 pm

doubloon wrote:What if you say to him "See here cow."?

Faith, by definition, is the firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Something, by definition, is almost anything ... a prune, a concept, a statement, a question or even a thought (technically a concept too :-P).

bike firmly believes there is no god even though he does not have proof there is no god (and never will). The "something" in this sentence is the concept that there is no god. bike believes in the concept there is no god but has no proof of the concept there is no god. bike has faith in the concept there is no god.

Russell's teapot is the same thing, it's not helping you, some guy claims there's a teapot that exists in space which cannot be observed. Somebody else says "that's unpossible, there can't be a teapot out there because I can't see it and we don't have a way to observe it so the teapot doesn't exist".

For all we know a teapot may have been launched out of earth's gravitational pull when Krakatoa blew and floated around in space until it got captured in an orbit or maybe the aliens chucked a bunch of stuff out an airlock because they had too much weight to achieve light speed and a teapot happened to be in the jetsam.

To say there is no teapot in space just because you can't observe it is silly, there may very well be a thousand teapots out there.

A man of science might say "maybe there's a teapot in space, I don't know without proof".
so this whole time you have been giving me s--t for looking at evidence or lack there of and forming my own opinion?

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:49 am

bikefreek wrote:
doubloon wrote:What if you say to him "See here cow."?

Faith, by definition, is the firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Something, by definition, is almost anything ... a prune, a concept, a statement, a question or even a thought (technically a concept too :-P).

bike firmly believes there is no god even though he does not have proof there is no god (and never will). The "something" in this sentence is the concept that there is no god. bike believes in the concept there is no god but has no proof of the concept there is no god. bike has faith in the concept there is no god.

Russell's teapot is the same thing, it's not helping you, some guy claims there's a teapot that exists in space which cannot be observed. Somebody else says "that's unpossible, there can't be a teapot out there because I can't see it and we don't have a way to observe it so the teapot doesn't exist".

For all we know a teapot may have been launched out of earth's gravitational pull when Krakatoa blew and floated around in space until it got captured in an orbit or maybe the aliens chucked a bunch of stuff out an airlock because they had too much weight to achieve light speed and a teapot happened to be in the jetsam.

To say there is no teapot in space just because you can't observe it is silly, there may very well be a thousand teapots out there.

A man of science might say "maybe there's a teapot in space, I don't know without proof".
so this whole time you have been giving me s--t for looking at evidence or lack there of and forming my own opinion?
More or less. That and appearing to believe the thought process that produces "no, god does not exist" for you is somehow superior to the thought process that produces "yes, god does exist" for someone else.

So basically the same thing you've been giving people s--t about who say they believe in god. I think it would have been a lot more fun around a pool table with some alcohol though.

Let me put it this way. What is the difference between these two questions?

Do you believe in God?

Do you believe in thriving, sentient biological life outside the earth's solar system?

There really is no difference.

Cases can be made for yes or no to both questions and mountains of "evidence" can be presented to support either answer in both cases, even with some overlap. But the problem is even with all that evidence there is no indisputable proof of a yes or a no for either question.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:19 am

I havent been giving people s--t for just believing in god....Ive been giving people s--t for citing scripture and personal expiriences as "proof" of god. Ive been giving people s--t because without one shred of empirical evidence people of religion completely align themselves with whatever they are told. I in my lack of belief whether you want to call it a faith or not, dont change anything in my life to align with my views....so no I reject your claim that me having my view is the same as them having their view. I dont completely rule out the possibility of god existing...but they rule out any chance of him not.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:25 am

trey_phish83 started this debacle and hasnt been seen since page 1... :lol:

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:48 am

bikefreek wrote:... Ive been giving people s--t because without one shred of empirical evidence people of religion completely align themselves with whatever they are told. ...
Exactly, just like someone saying they don't believe in god without one shred of empirical evidence.
bikefreek wrote:...I dont completely rule out the possibility of god existing...
both ways?
bikefreek wrote:...
I dont believe in god because there is not one shred of evidence that a god exists... that makes it pretty easy for me to decide.
...
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by ick » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:53 am

Selectedmarksman wrote:I'll chime in once more just for fairness. This does not stand, logically.
You have faith god does not exist.
Faith is not required to be absent the belief in something. There are tons of things you are presently unaware of that you don't believe in, but you don't require faith to be absent a belief in them. You do not have faith that Barney the Dinosaur isn't real. Poor example, there is plenty of evidence that he isn't. Okay, how about a purple manatee named Larry who has tea with the Queen of England every second Thursday. You don't have faith that he doesn't exist.

In short, to say that you have faith something doesn't exist because you lack faith or proof that it does exist is a non sequitur.
I think it comes down to this..... Man came from somewhere and EVERY man answers this question for himself.

Some people believe that there was divine intervention that "created" man, some believe one of the scientific theories (Example: Man "evolved" after some single-celled organism appeared). There are all sorts of people all over the place on this issue. Some believe in a strict creation of man by God, others believe God used evolution to create man, others conclude a universe that tends towards chaos somehow managed to create a complex organism out of volcanic gas, sea water, and dirt. There are other theories too, but everyone knows this.

Clearly men ask these types of origin questions. It is natural. I suppose if you never asked yourself this question and formed your own opinion... then yeah, you don't have faith in science. What cogent adult hasn't asked himself this question and formulated an opinion? None I suspect.

Your decision on which of these YOU think was the source of man isn't just a purely logical decision, they all require some element of faith even if you have convinced yourself that there can be no other conclusions and anyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.

Either you have faith in God as the creator.... faith in science that it has answered the origins of man out of nothing by pure chance.... or some hybrid mixture of the two.

When you say "I believe God doesn't exist and I came from a universe of chaos by random chance".... then clearly you have faith in science that it has provided enough proof to answer this for you. This is your belief that requires “faith”.

As much as you might find skepticism in the Bible... I find disturbing shortcomings in science... and I find many non-believers that are absolutely willing to swallow anything science puts out as "fact"... until they find out that "phlogiston" theory is flawed... then they move on to the next scientific theory that is in "fad."

For example, someone mentioned the recently popular Cosmic String Theory. It is interesting and compelling, but it is just another fad that will pass and be replaced by something else some day. Certain things seem to “stand” in science like gravity, atomic theory… and somehow this manages to translate into an absolute unquestionable faith in, say something like carbon dating or somehow making Darwin’s theory of evolution of specie into a premise that man evolved from a single cell.

"Sience has answered my questions" = Faith in science
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:22 am

doubloon wrote:
bikefreek wrote:... Ive been giving people s--t because without one shred of empirical evidence people of religion completely align themselves with whatever they are told. ...
Exactly, just like someone saying they don't believe in god without one shred of empirical evidence.
bikefreek wrote:...I dont completely rule out the possibility of god existing...
both ways?
bikefreek wrote:...
I dont believe in god because there is not one shred of evidence that a god exists... that makes it pretty easy for me to decide.
...
You cant compare a lack of belief with an actual belief. After all a lack of belief is just that...a lack of belief. My lack of belief in god isnt based on any feelings or faiths, its based on a lack of proof which is clearly missing. My lack of belief doesnt mean i believe in something else. a lack of belief is not a belief in its self.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bakerjw » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:46 pm

Anybody keeping a post count?

doubloon - ??
Bikefreek - ??
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by creophus » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:40 pm

Yes, I believe in God.
I've read the bible cover to cover and study it regularly.
I am a Christian and I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I'm an engineer and I believe science does not contradict God or the bible, although many people insist otherwise.
I'm far from perfect and make mistakes (sin) every day. God is changing me and I'm better than I used to be.

I think the natural world is great evidence of God's existence. Things in this world are too delicate and finely balanced to be chance.

I'll not insult anyone for having a different belief and would appreciate the same courtesy.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:41 pm

bakerjw wrote:Anybody keeping a post count?

doubloon - ??
Bikefreek - ??
in this thread i think i have the lead on post count

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:24 pm

Yeah he posts double for every post I make, it's like the drunk guy in the bar trying to shout down the jukebox with "I didn't pick that song! Why are you playing that song!"

The short of it is he keeps trying to unsay things he said by camouflaging it with the sheer volume of his posts.

He has already stated he believes god does not exist and he believes this because he doesn't have any empirical evidence god does exist.

Belief without proof, faith not logic.

Plus he keeps double and triple posting so he can get the first page, I think he's infatuated with kwikrdoodle.
Last edited by doubloon on Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by ThePatriot » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:40 pm

If God created us, who created God? Who created the guy who created God? Which one do we worship? My head hurts. :?
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:57 pm

doubloon wrote:Yeah he posts double for every post I make, it's like the drunk guy in the bar trying to shout down the jukebox with "I didn't pick that song! Why are you playing that song!"

The short of it is he keeps trying to unsay things he said by camouflaging it with the sheer volume of his posts. show me where i "unsay" things
He has already stated he believes god does not exist and he believes this because he doesn't have any empirical evidence god does exist.

Belief without proof, faith not logic. in the absence of proof the only logical thing to do is doubt the theory. How is that not logical? please tell me what im putting my faith in.
Plus he keeps double and triple posting so he can get the first page, I think he's infatuated with kwikrdoodle. show me a double or triple pos that i have made

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