Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in God?

yes
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66%
no
33
34%
 
Total votes: 97

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Selectedmarksman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:04 am

Doubloon has faith that he is not raped in the ass by a gorilla in a clown suit while he sleeps. He can't prove he isn't raped in the ass by a gorilla in a clown suit every night.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by trey_phish83 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:04 am

bikefreek wrote:trey_phish83 started this debacle and hasnt been seen since page 1... :lol:
i personally like shitstorms. knowing this was going to be a big one, i put the question infront of silencertalk. then kinda let the magic happen. i was sad to see microfag not shitting all over this thread.

my personal opinion. jesus only wanted to show humanity a way of life. be kind to your fellow man. do no evil. its simple logic.

jesus DIDN'T want to start a religion. --- i say all all of this without speaking 'of god'- thats a whole notha story.

the only thing i can think on about god is...

there are known knowns
and there are known unknowns,
and unknown unknowns, things that we don't know that we don't know.


do i go to church? sometimes,
do i believe in god, nah, not really.
i own a bible, i've read it. its pretty repetitive. not one of my favorite reads.

and to start another shitstorm.... i perfer killing babys in the name of science. idiots with religion destroyed my ability to walk again. thanks to all the dumb christian fucks that prevent me from living a normal life.

Image
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:18 am

Selectedmarksman wrote:Doubloon has faith that he is not raped in the ass by a gorilla in a clown suit while he sleeps. He can't prove he isn't raped in the ass by a gorilla in a clown suit every night.
That might explain the hemorrhoids.

@bikefreak
Maybe double posts isn't exactly correct but certainly back to back posts near page boundaries, that's what I posited to bakerjw as the reason I would never be able to match your post count.

You claim god can't exist is the logical conclusion from the lack of evidence then you turn around and say you haven't ruled out the possibility of god now you say you "doubt the theory". Your are constantly attempting to change your position by changing what you say but you continue to use synonyms for the word belief as if by avoiding the words "believe" or "belief" in a sentence will make your "view" or "theory" be based on something other than faith ... like logic. Self contradiction is, in a way, "unsaying" things.

My position hasn't changed from the beginning. I am undecided about the existence of god for all the same reasons you say you have decided god does not exist in one post then say you doubt the theory of god in another post.

Waffling.

Commit to a position on the topic.

You either believe god exists, believe god does not exist or do not have enough proof to believe in either the existence or non-existence of god.

Without mealy-mouthing the words, which is it?

@trey
You'd be walking already if I had my way on the topics you proposed.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by bikefreek » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:20 pm

When i say i believe there isnt a god im using the word believe as suppose.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by trey_phish83 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:20 pm

doubloon wrote:


@trey
You'd be walking already if I had my way on the topics you proposed.
thanks buddy. this is where alot of people would say 'god bless' :lol:
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by ick » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:31 pm

trey_phish83 wrote: Image
It is just a "mass of cells" before it comes down the birth canal, eh?
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:44 pm

bikefreek wrote:When i say i believe there isnt a god im using the word believe as suppose.
A perfect example of how you continue to be duplicitous on the topic.

It's still a mealy-mouthed response. I'm not asking do you "suppose" ... I'm asking do you believe.

You either believe god exists, believe god does not exist or do not have enough proof to believe in either the existence or non-existence of god.

Without continuing to mealy-mouth the words, which is it? Commit to a position on the topic.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:47 pm

ick wrote:
It is just a "mass of cells" before it comes down the birth canal, eh?
In the picture that egg would appear to not be fertilized.

Are you proposing menstruation is against god's will? This topic would require an entirely new thread.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Maser » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:48 pm

Yes, I believe in myself. 8)
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by solitary.phoenix » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:38 pm

I believe in a Creator. I think that organized religion vastly misrepresents and smears him, but I believe that he does exist and has our best interests at heart.

When I was going through my personal debate of "belief"- It was religion, and not science, that made me have doubts in his existence. When you get right down to it, you need "faith" whatever side of the fence you're on. You either have faith that we all came from nothing (see: http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/B ... ration.php), or faith that we all came from someone.

As for suffering in the world...our race asked for it. According to the history that I believe, our civilization wanted independence from the Creator early on and we got it. Many of us didn't "ask" for it, because we weren't even alive when the decision was made for us. Eventually, and at great cost, there was an extraction plan made for defectors and we were given the chance to jump ship.


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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Selectedmarksman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:11 pm

solitary.phoenix wrote:I believe in a Creator. I think that organized religion vastly misrepresents and smears him, but I believe that he does exist and has our best interests at heart.

When I was going through my personal debate of "belief"- It was religion, and not science, that made me have doubts in his existence. When you get right down to it, you need "faith" whatever side of the fence you're on. You either have faith that we all came from nothing (see: http://www.accessexcellence.org/RC/AB/B ... ration.php), or faith that we all came from someone.

As for suffering in the world...our race asked for it. According to the history that I believe, our civilization wanted independence from the Creator early on and we got it. Many of us didn't "ask" for it, because we weren't even alive when the decision was made for us. Eventually, and at great cost, there was an extraction plan made for defectors and we were given the chance to jump ship.


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Spontaneous Generation is not held as a valid theory by science. No scientist claims that we all came from nothing. If you live in the US, this should have been covered in High School science. If you live elsewhere, it should have been covered earlier. If you are interested in what science has to say about the origin of life, google "Abiogenesis" and be sure to only read scholarly journals and peer reviewed articles (not the fluff put out by people who don't understand the various theories). If you are interested in where the Universe came from, that branch of science is called "Cosmology".
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by trey_phish83 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:47 pm

if it was a picture of a fertilized egg no one would have a clue what it is.

kill em young. it is just a mass of cells going down the birth canal. whats the difference between you and some aborted fetus, alot. but who cares. kill em all. you, me, the pope. F--k it.d people donate their body to science. its their kid, or whatever you wanna call it. hell, i donated a fetus in my day. well, my old lady's fetus ha ha . it doesn't matter, we are of a blink of an eye in the world of evolution. there is what...360 billion people on this planet. oh well, i think its not going to matter if we kill a bunch of babys. people don't care about the cilivians that die in the middle east, they kill them every day of the week. F--k em. F--k them babys, F--k the whores that get knocked up, F--k the idiots that aint gonna stick around for the kids being born.

i'll be laughing when the baby savers get alzheimer's and they say 'no no stems cells are bad, i rather forget my name then kill a baby'. or any other illness that stem cells could cure. its only a matter of time till it happens to them or someone close to them, then they change their mind.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by rockman96 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:13 pm

trey_phish83 wrote:if it was a picture of a fertilized egg no one would have a clue what it is.

kill em young. it is just a mass of cells going down the birth canal. whats the difference between you and some aborted fetus, alot. but who cares. kill em all. you, me, the pope. F--k it.d people donate their body to science. its their kid, or whatever you wanna call it. hell, i donated a fetus in my day. well, my old lady's fetus ha ha . it doesn't matter, we are of a blink of an eye in the world of evolution. there is what...360 billion people on this planet. oh well, i think its not going to matter if we kill a bunch of babys. people don't care about the cilivians that die in the middle east, they kill them every day of the week. F--k em. F--k them babys, F--k the whores that get knocked up, F--k the idiots that aint gonna stick around for the kids being born.

i'll be laughing when the baby savers get alzheimer's and they say 'no no stems cells are bad, i rather forget my name then kill a baby'. or any other illness that stem cells could cure. its only a matter of time till it happens to them or someone close to them, then they change their mind.

christfags are what they are called on /b/
Trey, I hate it that you're in the situation you are. Really, I don't wish that on anyone. That said, years ago I had a friend confined to a wheelchair, but he was the polar opposite of you...you are seriously one of the most unhappy, bitter people I've come across. Your words make me cringe. As for killing babies, or the pope, or whoever....it's not your place to play God and Judge on the innocent, no one has that right. One day you will have perfect memory of all your thoughts and words and actions, and believe me when I say that you will regret it and wish you could take it all back. All of us need to be really careful of these things, we WILL be judged and held accountable for our words and actions.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by solitary.phoenix » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:57 pm

Selectedmarksman wrote:Spontaneous Generation is not held as a valid theory by science. No scientist claims that we all came from nothing. If you live in the US, this should have been covered in High School science. If you live elsewhere, it should have been covered earlier. If you are interested in what science has to say about the origin of life, google "Abiogenesis" and be sure to only read scholarly journals and peer reviewed articles (not the fluff put out by people who don't understand the various theories). If you are interested in where the Universe came from, that branch of science is called "Cosmology".
"Spontaneous Generation" holds by definition that "life forms arose spontaneously from non-living matter." Abiogenesis is, by definition "the study of how life arises from inorganic matter."

You are correct. No scientist claims that we all came from nothing. That's exactly why:

Stephen Hawkings wrote: "Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing.".... "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist." -- Stephen Hawking


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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Selectedmarksman » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:07 am

Spontaneous Generation was the theory that complex life formed spontaneously. The people who proposed the theory thought that mice spontaneously came to being in barns. This is absolutely not the same as Abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is the study of the origins of life from simple materials. Far from saying that even cells spontaneously generated, Abiogenesis proposes that certain molecules could naturally form in the conditions of early Earth that could, after a fashion, reproduce. We're not even talking cells here.

You cannot think Spontaneous Generation and Abiogenesis are equatable. They just aren't. You might as well say Astrology is the same thing as Astronomy because they both study the stars.

Also, that quote of Hawking's is WAY out of context here. He's talking about sub-atomic particles popping in and out of existence, something for Quantum Physicists to ponder, not life.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by solitary.phoenix » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:49 am

Selectedmarksman wrote:Spontaneous Generation was the theory that complex life formed spontaneously. The people who proposed the theory thought that mice spontaneously came to being in barns. This is absolutely not the same as Abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is the study of the origins of life from simple materials. Far from saying that even cells spontaneously generated, Abiogenesis proposes that certain molecules could naturally form in the conditions of early Earth that could, after a fashion, reproduce. We're not even talking cells here.

You cannot think Spontaneous Generation and Abiogenesis are equatable. They just aren't. You might as well say Astrology is the same thing as Astronomy because they both study the stars.

Also, that quote of Hawking's is WAY out of context here. He's talking about sub-atomic particles popping in and out of existence, something for Quantum Physicists to ponder, not life.
-

I did not take Hawking's quote out of context. That quote represented his personal belief that the universe came from "nothing"- see http://science.slashdot.org/science/07/ ... 2226.shtml.

The only difference between SG and Abiogenesis is the time frame involved and the complexity of the life-forms created. To me, they are equatable. The theory of Spontaneous Generation isn't just about "mice popping out of barns". Anaximenes, an early proponent of spontaneous generation believed that there was a primordial terrestrial slime, a mixture of earth and water- "simple materials"- as you say, which when combined with the sun's heat created life.



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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by doubloon » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:23 am

For me abiogenesis is more specific than spontaneous generation. I don't consider the two terms interchangeable because SG is just too ambiguous, it can mean almost anything from microorganisms to rats in barns. I certainly believe the two terms are related but, as selected suggests, in the same way astronomy and astrology are related.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by ick » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:42 am

Since Hawking is so popular and quoted above.... and most atheists are shocked by the information…

I forget which book it was... it was not "Universe in a Nutshell"... but Hawking does not deny the existence of God.

Hawking is not forthright on the topic and from what I understand will not answer a reporter's question of God directly... but he had a chapter specifically dedicated to the question of the existence of God.

Not only does he suggest that there is ample room for God in scientific questions but to make a long story short he argues a creator is likely required.

Do a quick google, summaries of his thoughts are everywhere.

I would type a quote of some of it from that chapter... but I purchased the book in audio format.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Selectedmarksman » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:02 am

Some bullet points:

-The origin of the Universe has absolutely nothing to do with Abiogenesis. You can have a separate discussion on Cosmology but Abiogenesis (or, indeed, any sub-field of Biology) can make no comment on the origin of the Universe.

-Anaximenes lived over two and a half millenia ago. His notions of primordial slime are not equivalent to modern understanding of Chemistry, Cellular Biology, and Genetics. Spontaneous Generation also held that children were spontaneously generated inside the mother, thus that theory had no understanding of the connection between sperm and egg. Contemporary Abiogenesis theories are so completely different from Spontaneous Generation I don't understand how one could consider them the same, or even similar. For one thing, Abiogenesis holds that the processes through which organic compounds (not life, just organic compounds) can form out of inorganic materials occurs due to natural processes that may be understood.

Let me put it another way, since you mentioned Anaximenes. Aristotle believed everything was composed of basic elements: air, water, earth, fire, and aether. This is not the same as our modern understanding of elements. Nor can one criticize the validity of the periodic table by pointing out Aristotle had it wrong.

We do Science, and we learn things.

-Hawking can follow any beliefs he likes, but that is irrelevant to reality. This is an argument from authority. It's similar to people claiming Charles Darwin acknowledged God on his deathbed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but it has nothing to do with the validity of the Science he studied. For an inverse, let's say I discover the cure for AIDS but on my deathbed claim that chocolate pudding is actually an alien race sent to spy on us. Such an insane statement does not undermine the validity of the discovery.

*end of bullet list*

I'm not trying to be hostile to anybody, I'm just honestly confused by some of the ideas put forth. Are there other scientists out there who are keeping quiet, or is what I'm saying just not making sense to anyone?
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by solitary.phoenix » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:15 am

Selectedmarksman wrote:
-The origin of the Universe has absolutely nothing to do with Abiogenesis. You can have a separate discussion on Cosmology but Abiogenesis (or, indeed, any sub-field of Biology) can make no comment on the origin of the Universe.

-Anaximenes lived over two and a half millenia ago. His notions of primordial slime are not equivalent to modern understanding of Chemistry, Cellular Biology, and Genetics... Contemporary Abiogenesis theories are so completely different from Spontaneous Generation I don't understand how one could consider them the same, or even similar...
It's very simple. "Abiogenesis" attempts to use more sophistocated explanations....but both Spontaneous Generation and Abiogenesis hold that living things- by themselves- originate from nonliving matter. How hard is this to understand?

As for the relationship between those two sciences: Common beliefs regarding the origin of the Universe are not studied within the Abiogenesis field, and vice versa with Cosmology. But for Abiogenesis to theoretically occur there has to be a Universe for it to occur within. In this sense it has everything to do with Abiogenesis. I do not believe that we generated spontaneously via Abiogenesis from inorganic lifeless material that was itself spontaneously generated within a universe that came from nothing. To me, this requires leaps of faith that I simply lack.


spon·ta·ne·ous  /spɒnˈteɪniəs/ [spon-tey-nee-uhs]

–adjective

1. coming or resulting from a natural impulse or tendency; without effort or premeditation; natural and unconstrained; unplanned: a spontaneous burst of applause.
2. (of a person) given to acting upon sudden impulses.
3. (of natural phenomena) arising from internal forces or causes; independent of external agencies; self-acting.
4. growing naturally or without cultivation, as plants and fruits; indigenous.
5. produced by natural process.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Selectedmarksman » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:37 am

"Spontaneous Generation" is a specific, dis-proven theory. You can't play symantec games with with definitions to try to make it the same as Abiogenesis, a set of modern, currently under research theories. It is not that I don't understand what you're saying, it is that I am saying you are employing fallacious reasoning. Again, you can argue against Spontaneous Generation all you like... and I'll agree with you. However, the antiquated theory of Spontaneous Generation is not modern Abiogenesis. Alchemy != Modern Chemistry.

You are correct, we did not spontaneously generate from inorganic, lifeless material. Inorganic material can, and has been shown to in laboratory settings, form organic compounds, however. Under certain conditions, those organic compounds can form molecules that copy themselves in a manner similar to DNA or RNA. The first forms of 'life' might be thought of more like viruses than cells, even. Nobody is proposing that single-celled organisms, complete with complex and specialized structures, formed all of a sudden.

As far as Abiogenesis is concerned, the Universe could have always existed, it could have had a beginning, or it could be in a cycle of singularity, expansion, and contraction back into a singularity. It makes no difference to Abiogenesis, that is outside the scope of the theory. The theory of Gravity makes no comment on retroviruses, either. That's not what it's for.

Regarding the origin of the Universe, we don't know. I'm not aware of any respected scientist who professes to know. This is a work in progress. We didn't used to know anything about cells, molecules, atoms, quarks, etc. either. What we're waiting on here is what's called a "Theory of Everything" that can accurately describe the universe when the strong, weak, electromagnetic, and gravitic forces combine to behave in a single way.

Now... Someone will undoubtedly claim that simply because Science does not know exactly what occurred at the beginning of our Universe that 'God did it.' Well, I challenge those who would say such a thing to explain why their particular God did it instead of any of the other flavors of God, Gods, Goddesses, or non-theistic spiritual forces. Science is vast, but so is Religion. There are many, many deities credited with creation. To claim one is correct, and the only correct creator, is a positive claim that requires positive proof.

In the absence of positive proof, you are free to exercise your faith. That is what faith is, what it is for, and how it works. However, don't go muddying up Science by claiming it supports your specific belief system if science is not involved in why you believe as you do. If you choose to reject science altogether, well, that's up to you. Personally, I like electricity, medicine, warm clothes, and sanitation.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by solitary.phoenix » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:36 am

Selectedmarksman wrote:"Spontaneous Generation" is a specific, dis-proven theory. You can't play symantec games with with definitions to try to make it the same as Abiogenesis, a set of modern, currently under research theories. It is not that I don't understand what you're saying, it is that I am saying you are employing fallacious reasoning. Again, you can argue against Spontaneous Generation all you like... and I'll agree with you. However, the antiquated theory of Spontaneous Generation is not modern Abiogenesis. Alchemy != Modern Chemistry.
I can tell that your feelings are very sensitive on this subject and I'm sorry that I hurt them. But yes, Abiogenesis and Spontaneous Generation are similar concepts. Unfortunately pointing out their ideological parallels isn't a symantec game. Both theories teach that life itself generated from something non-living. If you would like to start a movement to reform and re-define either Spontaneous Generation theory or Abiogenesis theory to somehow make them less similar to each other, be my guest. Trying to convince me of the credibility of Abiogenesis over SG theory would be the same as me trying to convince you to accept Catholicism over Protestantism or Islam over Judaism.

As for whether the Universe has always existed, had a beginning, etc- whatever your prescribed doctrine of it's origin is, it requires faith and belief. This bring me back to my original post...
"When you get right down to it, you need 'faith' whatever side of the fence you're on. You either have faith that we all came from nothing, or faith that we all came from someone."
The definition of "nothing" can be argued, as can the definition of "someone". Your perspective and argument simply hinges on who you are and what you believe. However, the fact that faith is needed to believe any origin-of-life or origin-of-the-universe theory is inarguable.



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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by solitary.phoenix » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:41 am

Selectedmarksman wrote:If you choose to reject science altogether, well, that's up to you. Personally, I like electricity, medicine, warm clothes, and sanitation.
I might also point out that the rejection of certain scientific theories does not automatically leave persons in the cold, in the dark, without medical care, or make them untidy.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by trey_phish83 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:52 pm

rockman96 wrote:
trey_phish83 wrote:if it was a picture of a fertilized egg no one would have a clue what it is.

kill em young. it is just a mass of cells going down the birth canal. whats the difference between you and some aborted fetus, alot. but who cares. kill em all. you, me, the pope. F--k it.d people donate their body to science. its their kid, or whatever you wanna call it. hell, i donated a fetus in my day. well, my old lady's fetus ha ha . it doesn't matter, we are of a blink of an eye in the world of evolution. there is what...360 billion people on this planet. oh well, i think its not going to matter if we kill a bunch of babys. people don't care about the cilivians that die in the middle east, they kill them every day of the week. F--k em. F--k them babys, F--k the whores that get knocked up, F--k the idiots that aint gonna stick around for the kids being born.

i'll be laughing when the baby savers get alzheimer's and they say 'no no stems cells are bad, i rather forget my name then kill a baby'. or any other illness that stem cells could cure. its only a matter of time till it happens to them or someone close to them, then they change their mind.

christfags are what they are called on /b/
Trey, I hate it that you're in the situation you are. Really, I don't wish that on anyone. That said, years ago I had a friend confined to a wheelchair, but he was the polar opposite of you...you are seriously one of the most unhappy, bitter people I've come across. Your words make me cringe. As for killing babies, or the pope, or whoever....it's not your place to play God and Judge on the innocent, no one has that right. One day you will have perfect memory of all your thoughts and words and actions, and believe me when I say that you will regret it and wish you could take it all back. All of us need to be really careful of these things, we WILL be judged and held accountable for our words and actions.
gotta be realistic about life brother. i'm actually happy. i have a hot wife, my own house, tons of toys and a army of friends. as far as killing people, i think you miss quoted me. my opinion is that we has humans do not matter. we are a dime a dozen. for everyone one of us that dies, there are 4 more for replacement. we are only animals, smart animals.

everything after "one day....." you can keep to yourself.
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

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Selectedmarksman
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Post by Selectedmarksman » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:59 am

I can tell that your feelings are very sensitive on this subject and I'm sorry that I hurt them. But yes, Abiogenesis and Spontaneous Generation are similar concepts. Unfortunately pointing out their ideological parallels isn't a symantec game. Both theories teach that life itself generated from something non-living. If you would like to start a movement to reform and re-define either Spontaneous Generation theory or Abiogenesis theory to somehow make them less similar to each other, be my guest.
I don't have to do a thing, the global scientific community is already in agreement with me. You are the one at odds, here. Again, to follow your line of reasoning, Alchemy and Chemistry are similar concepts. That doesn't mean they are the same. Chemistry gets us plastics, alloys, batteries, medicines, and other useful thing. It works.

Interesting tactic with the feelings bit, doesn't change the facts though.

Also, I was saying it appears that you reject the scientific process (as you cling to Spontaneous Generation and fail to separate it from theories 2,500 years more advanced). That kind of mentality would result in no progress, thus the lack of the fruits of the scientific process. If you equate 'medicine' as practiced in the middle ages with modern medicine, feel free to get bled next time you develop a cold.
I've got Honey Badger Fever.
*Add this to your sig if you've got the fever, too!

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