Abortion is better for unplanned babies than having to eat R

[PTK]

Is there a single person on this board that trusts the gov with our tax
Dollars? Let alone to do the right thing?

What about this argument.

Most of what the government does is wrong
The government is for abortion.

Therefore abortion must be wrong (or is probably wrong if you think the gov is only wrong most of the time)

Government subsidies are wrong. The fact they subsidize abortions in many cases doesn't make abortion wrong any more than food subsidies make food wrong.

[m1a185]

Abortion isn't wrong, our world is overpopulated.

[goteron]

That's a bold statement. The forest service didn't do so well with "overpopulation"

And the logic argument was a joke...

[solitary.phoenix]

Human life begins at conception. An unborn child is, in fact a child- which is a human.

Life is a human right. Remember Franklin's statement? "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."
The abortion "rights" debate is similar. The whole arguement is made and promoted by people who are born- who have the ability to argue about who should or should not continue living.
The "lamb" in this case, is the unborn child- who has no ability to even participate in the "vote" or protect itself.

The right to LIVE supersedes the right of a careless parent to live CONVENIENTLY.

So fucking what? A woman was raped- did she even take measures to prevent the rape from happening, or was she a mindless, naive sheeple? Her now-existent child should not be punished for her stupidity or careless behavior. If she wants to give the child up for adoption AFTER it is born, great. That's fine- but let it live. She should try to keep her legs shut or excercise her 2nd amendment rights next time if she doesn't want babies. If she wants to kill someone, she should hunt her rapist down and kill her HIM. Oh, but wait...if he's found, he'll get to go to court, waste taxpayer dollars at trial and IF convicted go live for a few years in prison where he's fed, given medical care and maybe even has TV to watch.

Hey Tyris...I think China overheard you- it's "encouraging" people to kill babies. You should move there with your somalian boyfriends. Maybe you can even pick up a fresh vagina on the human organ market there to replace the shrivled up herpes infected hole you've got between your legs now.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 36,00.html

[doubloon]

it's individual freedom that's at stake.

Correct. And everyone involved should have access to that freedom.

I don't believe that abortion as a medical procedure should be stricken from medical practice. If a woman is raped, a girl abused or if the life of the mother is in danger, I do not think that they should be denied that choice as long as all the information is made available to the mother.

Abortion for convenience should be illegal.

We're about on the same page from a personal point of view except for the illegal part.

I believe whether a life starts when it gets a birth certificate or at the moment of conception is purely a matter of a person's religious viewpoint and as such it is a matter that should be regulated by the state and not the Fed. Just like religion the whole idea of illegal abortion is flooded with people who think with their emotions and not their brains.

Consider this.

If abortion is murder then miscarriage is manslaughter or negligent homicide and the mother (or parents) should be investigated and stand trial to be judged for every such event.

If we're going to stand all high and mighty in our pulpits and say abortion is murder then every miscarriage is criminally suspect.

Sexually active women should be required to submit every monthly discharge for inspection to find out if the egg was fertilized. How else would anyone know for a fact if the discharge was an abortion or not?

If a "mother" unknowingly flushes a fertilized egg down the sewer that makes it OK? Just because she didn't *know* she was pregnant it's an OK abortion ... maybe because it was "god's will"?

Maybe god told Suzy to go to the abortion clinic and get rid of the kid because it was going to be the next Hitler. You don't know if he did or not. Conversations between Suzy and god are private ... you're not invited.

[jppd47]

I dont get how some people will say "its ok to abort a rape baby, but not an unplanned baby." Especially when they say abortion is murder. So its ok to murder a baby some times, but not others?

[libertyman777]

Abortion isn't wrong, our world is overpopulated.

Eugenics is a very slippery slope.

[libertyman777]

We're about on the same page from a personal point of view except for the illegal part.

I believe whether a life starts when it gets a birth certificate or at the moment of conception is purely a matter of a person's religious viewpoint and as such it is a matter that should be regulated by the state and not the Fed. Just like religion the whole idea of illegal abortion is flooded with people who think with their emotions and not their brains.

35 states disagree with you on that point on when life occurs with respect to murder/manslaughter. And yes it should be regulated by the States.

http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_victims/Stat ... 92302.html

Consider this.

If abortion is murder then miscarriage is manslaughter or negligent homicide and the mother (or parents) should be investigated and stand trial to be judged for every such event.

If we're going to stand all high and mighty in our pulpits and say abortion is murder then every miscarriage is criminally suspect.

Sexually active women should be required to submit every monthly discharge for inspection to find out if the egg was fertilized. How else would anyone know for a fact if the discharge was an abortion or not?

If a "mother" unknowingly flushes a fertilized egg down the sewer that makes it OK? Just because she didn't *know* she was pregnant it's an OK abortion ... maybe because it was "god's will"?

Maybe god told Suzy to go to the abortion clinic and get rid of the kid because it was going to be the next Hitler. You don't know if he did or not. Conversations between Suzy and god are private ... you're not invited.

There are many reasons for natural miscarriage.

The only instances that I can think of in which a miscarriage is done on purpose is when a woman takes the "morning after pill", but there's really no way she can know if conception has occurred in that short of time frame. But if she misses her period, then it's a pharmaceutical abortion.

We are allowed to die. As a matter fact it is inevitable. Some children don't make it through birth. If a medical professional caused or contributed to this then they can be held liable.

If Suzy is mentally unstable, then perhaps some arrangement can be made for adoption. God never tells anyone to murder another, period. It's another one of those "absolutes"

One day we'll all find out what God thinks about it. (But that was another thread )

[solitary.phoenix]

If abortion is murder then miscarriage is manslaughter or negligent homicide and the mother (or parents) should be investigated and stand trial to be judged for every such event.

If we're going to stand all high and mighty in our pulpits and say abortion is murder then every miscarriage is criminally suspect.

Sexually active women should be required to submit every monthly discharge for inspection to find out if the egg was fertilized. How else would anyone know for a fact if the discharge was an abortion or not?

If a "mother" unknowingly flushes a fertilized egg down the sewer that makes it OK? Just because she didn't *know* she was pregnant it's an OK abortion ... maybe because it was "god's will"?

So if your wife was in a late term pregnancy and King Samir Shabazz of the New Black Panther Party foud a way to abort your baby without causing harm to the mother, would you "think with your emotions and not your brains"? Would you equate his actions against your unborn child with the simple, intellectual violation of your human right to reproduce yourself or interference with your wife's medical choice to bear children? Or would you view the action as murder?

If your born child drowned in your backyard swimming pool by accident and you had previously taken every ethical, legal and moral precaution to prevent this would you welcome an invasive, drawn out criminal investigation to determine your negligence during an already gut-wrenchingly painful point in your life? Obviously not. But I'm sure that you do not oppose the reasonable investigation of criminal negligence in cases where children are obviously beaten, starved and denied medical care.

Would you invite monthly inspections from the government and social services to test your suitability as the parent of a born child- just to make sure you aren't being negligent and comitting any undiscovered parenting crime?

[Tyris]

Again, when is that money ever spent on something better?

Are you implying that there is no better use for tax payer money than spending it on welfare?

-T

[WhisperFan]

I dont get how some people will say "its ok to abort a rape baby, but not an unplanned baby." Especially when they say abortion is murder. So its ok to murder a baby some times, but not others?

I have always agreed with this ^^^

There is so much hypocrisy with people and killing it isn't funny.

- There are some people that would have no problem going from an anti-death penalty rally - straight to go have an abortion.

- There are other people that will hold up signs in front of Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic .... but if they are on a jury, they have no problem sentencing a person to the death chamber.

- Some think that abortion is murder (unless that mother was raped or it was incest)

Me ?!? I have no moral objection to killing ... as long as the right people get killed. I don't like the death penalty they way we do it in this country. I don't mean to change this into a DP thread .... but can anyone who likes our current system of the DP, explain why they support it?

Consider this -
Juries are made of men and women that are human, and by extension, flawed and imperfect. Judges, no matter how impartial they try to be, bring their culture, their up-bringing and their intelligence (or lack thereof) to the case in front of them.

So - I oppose capital punishment - but not really on religious grounds.
1) Capital punishment costs money. When you add in the preparations for a capital case, the automatic appeals, and the time spent on death row. The costs of a capital punishment case can eclipse a life-in-prison case. Even when the lifer lives out their life and dies a natural death. Of course, there are some cases where that won't be true - but it's not like the old west, where the cost of a death sentence was just the cost of the rope and the wood for the gallows.

2) Capital punishment is not applied equally. A black male has more of a chance to face a death sentence than a white male when charges with the same crime, and a woman of any race is even less likely to face a death sentence than a male charged with the same crime. Lady justice has had her blindfold slip when it comes to race and gender in prosecutors seeking the DP.

3) Capital punishment is not the deterrent that we have been led to believe. If the DP was truly a deterrent, then states that had the DP should have lower murder rates than those that don't. That's not always true. Also, states that do away with the DP should see their murder rates rise, and that's not always true either. The long standing comeback is, "But at least that criminal won't be a repeat offender." (or something like that) But the truth is, they probably wouldn't have been anyway. With the notable exception of contract killers, and serial killers ... most people that commit murder do so in the heat of the moment, and aren't likely to repeat the act.

4) Humans make mistakes. Some mistakes are made on purpose, some aren't. We have several reasons why an innocent person might make it to death row. Eyewitness error, government misconduct, false confessions, and the mishandling of evidence might all lead to a person being convicted of a crime they didn't commit. There have been at least 86 people exonerated while on death row since the late 80's. There may be as many as 1000 people wrongly executed since 1976 when the US Supreme Ct lifted its moratorium on the DP.
A person serving life by mistake can be let out - but once someone is dead - they're dead! After all - what is the acceptable number of innocent people to execute? To me the number is 0. Didn't Benjamin Franklin say, "It is better one hundred guilty persons should escape than that one innocent person should suffer."

5) I know we don't do things just because everybody else does .... but on this issue, we really are out of step with countries most like us ....
But you decide ... which list of countries is more like us in culture and values ..... United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, France, Germany (and most of Western Europe)
OR
Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, and China
?????
The first group of countries have all abolished the DP
The second group all executed prisoners in 2010.

I know I probably won't change anyone's mind on this topic. However, I feel that until we can come up with a system that applies the DP fairly and w/o any prejudice, and we can keep the costs down, and we can safeguard against killing innocent people ... I am against the DP ....

Again, I do not oppose it because I find it to be immoral, but rather because I find the system (as applied now) makes little sense to me.

If we make it fair and cost effective - I would not only support the electric chair .... hell - I'd support electric bleachers!

I'd also like to see abortion kept as an option for people that want one. I don't want people treat abortion like a form of birth control, but I don't think many women do anyway.
I hear people say - well if you don't want to have a baby, don't have sex. And that sounds good on it's face ... but there are some married couples that have no desire whatsoever to have kids. They take the appropriate precautions and practice safe-sex .... but birth control can and does sometimes fail. I think it unreasonable to tell married people that they shouldn't have sex if they don't want a baby .... I think it just as unreasonable to tell a woman that she has no option except to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

Lastly, I don't want tax dollars spent on abortion.
But - I don't want tax dollars 'wasted' when misused on a flawed capital punishment system either.

[doubloon]

...
There are many reasons for natural miscarriage.
...

Agreed, but you don't know unless you test, that's my point.

...
The only instances that I can think of in which a miscarriage is done on purpose is when a woman takes the "morning after pill", but there's really no way she can know if conception has occurred in that short of time frame. But if she misses her period, then it's a pharmaceutical abortion.
...

Precisely why you need to test to enforce the no abortion law.

...
If Suzy is mentally unstable, then perhaps some arrangement can be made for adoption.
...

The exact same argument is being made to take away your gun rights. We need to open up everyone's medical records for the Fed to determine if people have the right to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

...
God never tells anyone to murder another, period. It's another one of those "absolutes"
...

I wouldn't presume to know what god does or does not tell people, regarding murder or abortions.

It was man that decided to throw away the old testament ... god killed and condoned the killing of a lot of people and babies in the old testament.

Less than a month old is OK to kill and they don't count as people.
And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6
Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

Kill all the women that have been lying with the enemy to kill their unborn.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17

Kill the babies to punish the parents
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17

[silencertalk]

I dont get how some people will say "its ok to abort a rape baby, but not an unplanned baby." Especially when they say abortion is murder. So its ok to murder a baby some times, but not others?

Really tough question. Imagine if your wife or daughter were raped and she was forced to carry the baby to term.

Even if abortion were banned, except for rape - who is to say she is right when she claims rape? Date rape? Statutory rape? Which type of rape would allow the killing of the baby? Planned Parenthood would just have a 'rape' checkbox and counsel you to check it to make the abortion legal if it were otherwise illegal.

But if I woke up in a world and abortion was suddenly illegal, even after rape, I could see the logic in that.

[doubloon]

...
So if your wife was in a late term ... blah blah blah I didn't even read your post doubloon but I know I'm smarter than you so I will just flood your vision with my words of wisdom and you will roll over and admit I am right.

Fixed it for you.

If you go back and read my posts you will find at no time do I say I would willingly participate in an abortion. In fact, I don't even want my money to pay for yours.

What you will find, if you actually read my posts, is I support the right of someone else to choose to have an abortion. The conditions of that decision are not entirely defined and probably negotiable.

I would (probably) never burn a U.S. flag in protest but I support the right of people in this country to do so.

I would never let another man F--k me in the ass but if that's what you want to do I support your right to have it done to you and recommend you use some lube.

If a "born child" dies in a swimming pool there will be an investigation and it won't be proven to be an accident until the evidence says it's so. People will look at the death of that "born child" and try to figure out if it was criminal negligence.

You almost seem to be arguing the "life" of an "unborn child" is worth less than the life of a "born child". I guess that makes you an old testament kind of guy.

[goteron]

Again, when is that money ever spent on something better?

Are you implying that there is no better use for tax payer money than spending it on welfare?

-T

Absolutely not. I believe if a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat. I'm saying that there are much much better places, but the money will never get there. Greed is too great.

[doubloon]

...
There is so much hypocrisy with people and killing it isn't funny.
...

Nice post.

I'd love to spend some time with you discussing this at length over some alcohol, with tobacco of course. I don't know you that well so the firearms would have to be separated from the alcohol.

[bakerjw]

In many places in this country it is legal to pull a 9 month old "fetus" out of the mother feet first, stab a implement into the base of its skull, suck out its brain, and then pull out a dead baby. If you are pro choice then you do support this because there is no distinction made by the pro choice community between conception and birth. There is no middle ground.

Personally I believe that life and death are the realm of a greater power where we are allowed to tread. Neither creating a life or taking a life should be taken lightly. Both bear the burden of great responsibility and I prefer to err on the side of cation in both instances.

[solitary.phoenix]

...
So if your wife was in a late term ... blah blah blah I didn't even read your post doubloon but I know I'm smarter than you so I will just flood your vision with my words of wisdom and you will roll over and admit I am right.

Fixed it for you.

Dude, in all honesty you're one of the posters on here whose intelligence I admire. I'm not claiming to be smarter than you, I know I'm probably not. Sorry if it came across that way- my point, basically and in so many words was that I do not support the right of someone else to choose abortion. I equate it to the cold blooded murder of someone who is a born, developed person. Which is not a choice any of us can lawfully make. This is where we differ.

Apologies for offense.

[goteron]

Another side point is the emotional pain is causes women, whether they want it outright, are convinced, or otherwise. A womans body was not made for abortion, physically or emotionally. A lot of pain and torment is involved (in most cases) and not a lot of women are told about it beforehand.

[trey_phish83]

[CThomas]

My $.02 Rape aside we are taught that a women has the right to say yeah or nay when it comes to spreading her legs or not. So ultimately the responsibility is with the female. So many women have proven not to be responsible with the power god or nature has given them. Now all kids are innocent (until an adult corrupts them) and deserve a shot at life but certainly not when someone else besides the actors who created the kid are being asked to pay for that kid. So I believe and have so for a long, long time that every female upon birth should have their tubes tied (seriously). If and when they decide the time is right and they would like to have a baby they can apply to some newly created government agency or perhaps a division of the IRS to have kid. They would have to prove that they have the financial resources to have and raise the kid, which would include the ability to pay for the hospital bill or have the insurance to do so. When they can prove this they can apply for a versal of the procedure. The issue of abortion would be over, the issue of rape babies would be over, the issue of that 16 year old who went to far under the bleachers one night would be over. During a debate about welfare moms many years ago I floated my idea to a bunch of friends who happen to be democrats and they were stunned and I mean stunned. I do not speak with them any more as they were against my world, against my guns, against my hunting.

Given my system would never get pased that is unless I am elected dictator for a day (my New Years wish for so many years) we have what we have. The current system is flawed from another perspective. I do not think the decision to abort should be solely the females. Scenario female wants to abort but the guy does not. In our society the guy has no say but if the female wants to keep it, again the guy has no say but he has to pay. So I think the guy should have a say in it all (now that would be a debate).

I believe in abortion in the first trimester and that is it!! If some complication develops thereafter and the mothers life is truley in danger then a case for abortion could be reviewed and made.

Oh yeah I am all for retroactive abortion of criminals and the POS within society, it is called the DEATH PENALTY and should be used on so many more.

Some here believe that it is their god given right to own a firearm and that no one should be able to tell them otherwise. Well there are others that believe it is their god given right to say what happens to their body and what is allowed to grow inside it.

Lastly, I have an amazing neice and nephew that were adopted at birth. While I am not really religious I am so thankful that their moms did not abort.

[silencertalk]

First, that egg is unfertilized - so it is certainly not a chicken.

This is a person:



And legal to kill. And it should not be. But did you hear? Some claim they cannot feel pain, so it is ok I guess.

[zeezee]

I dont get how some people will say "its ok to abort a rape baby, but not an unplanned baby." Especially when they say abortion is murder. So its ok to murder a baby some times, but not others?

Good point, need to give that some more thought.
Thanks
ZZ

[WhisperFan]

In many places in this country it is legal to pull a 9 month old "fetus" out of the mother feet first, stab a implement into the base of its skull, suck out its brain, and then pull out a dead baby. If you are pro choice then you do support this because there is no distinction made by the pro choice community between conception and birth. There is no middle ground.

For some people there is a third choice - viability. When a fetus can survive outside the womb, abortion should be allowable before that point. After the fetus it viable - no abortion after that.

The people with no middle ground are the pro-lifers ... not the pro choicers

[silencertalk]

Viability? So we should be able to kill kids provided they cannot survive on their own?

Few young kids can survive on their own.