Abortion is better for unplanned babies than having to eat R

[trey_phish83]

who cares,

its part of her body, if she can cut her toenails, she can have an abortion.

and since when is murder such a bad thing?

[solitary.phoenix]

These are babies, man...they have little brains, little fingers and little hearts. Whether they're black, white, chinese, welfare leech offspring- whatever- they're little people. They can't help who they are or where they came from.

[doubloon]

...
So if your wife was in a late term ... blah blah blah I didn't even read your post doubloon but I know I'm smarter than you so I will just flood your vision with my words of wisdom and you will roll over and admit I am right.

Fixed it for you.

Dude, in all honesty you're one of the posters on here whose intelligence I admire. I'm not claiming to be smarter than you, I know I'm probably not. Sorry if it came across that way- my point, basically and in so many words was that I do not support the right of someone else to choose abortion. I equate it to the cold blooded murder of someone who is a born, developed person. Which is not a choice any of us can lawfully make. This is where we differ.

Apologies for offense.

Not offended at all and apologies for fooling you into thinking I'm intellgent.

I was just trying to shock you out of the ivory tower.

The "right" as in the civil right is the crux of the matter for me, not the moral right.

*If* abortion has been declared a crime (as it is in many states) then I 100% agree with you that the someone does not have the legal right to choose abortion ... in those jurisdictions. Whether or not I consider it to be right or wrong is beside the point in such cases. My personal view does not and should not matter in consideration of what *other* people choose.

I would position myself in disagreement with any law against a person's or family's right to choose abortion just as I position myself against 90% of the NFA and virtually all gun control. Just because I do not agree with a law it doesn't mean I think I'm immune to abiding by it.

[doubloon]

Viability? So we should be able to kill kids provided they cannot survive on their own?

Few young kids can survive on their own.

Not specifically "on their own" but those that are not able to survive outside the womb without artificial life support are certainly not "viable" in my mind.

If a baby leaves the womb and the doctor says "you're child will not survive unless we put it in an incubator" you have the choice to opt for the incubator or let the baby go.

[PTK]

First, that egg is unfertilized - so it is certainly not a chicken.

This is a person:



And legal to kill. And it should not be. But did you hear? Some claim they cannot feel pain, so it is ok I guess.

16 weeks is the general cutoff point.

The fetus measures nearly 5 inches (12cm) from head to buttocks.
The fetus weighs about 3.5 ounces (100 grams).

[solitary.phoenix]

16 weeks is the general cutoff point.

Oh, damn. Sorry.

[solitary.phoenix]

Not offended at all and apologies for fooling you into thinking I'm intellgent.

I was just trying to shock you out of the ivory tower.

The "right" as in the civil right is the crux of the matter for me, not the moral right.

That's cool man. I can have a very, very strong personality that comes out extra pungent- especially in my writing...so always take anything I say with a grain of salt and a clothespin on your nose. In real life, forget it- half of the time people don't know if I'm serious or being sarcastic, if I'm giving them the "death look" or just daydreaming.

I'm with you on civil rights, 100%...in fact, many anti-abortion folks are "motivated" by their belief in human civil rights. It's that we believe those same civil rights that we want everyone to have, they extend to all humans- even unborn kids. Their right to live trumps their parent, or anyone else's right to kill them for any reason. Even kids who are produced from rape have a right to live. This doesn't mean to say that their mother doesn't have the right to give them away and never see them again. In our minds, it's the two wrongs don't make a right philosophy.

If you want to get in our heads and figure out how we work, you're in the right direction. Try to think of it the way you're doing- it IS about civil, or human rights.

[trey_phish83]

abortions don't look like this,

first hand experience.

they use a vacuum, about as big as a straw

[solitary.phoenix]

That's what it looks like before. If you got blasted in the face with a 12ga would how you looked afterwards make the crime less severe?

[PTK]

That's what it looks like before. If you got blasted in the face with a 12ga would how you looked afterwards make the crime less severe?

Hysterically less severe.

[goteron]

Out of curiosity, how many of those arguing for abortion have children. Would you do anything to protect them?

If you saw an abandoned child would you leave it?

The unborn have just as much of a right to live as you do.

If Siamese twins are born, does the first one out of the womb have the choice to kill the other?

I still fail to see how it's the mothers choice. I don't have the right to destroy some legal documents let alone a life.

[trey_phish83]

That's what it looks like before. If you got blasted in the face with a 12ga would how you looked afterwards make the crime less severe?

so you'd be the person that automatically thinks shooting someone is a crime?

[jppd47]

If Siamese twins are born, does the first one out of the womb have the choice to kill the other?

Babies dont have the abilty to choose. For that matter children arent allowed to makes choices till certian ages.

I still fail to see how it's the mothers choice. I don't have the right to destroy some legal documents let alone a life.

You can choose to take life. If your family member is on life support and your in charge of their health care, you can choose to take them off life support effectivly killing them. There are procedures to legally destroy documents

[solitary.phoenix]

That's what it looks like before. If you got blasted in the face with a 12ga would how you looked afterwards make the crime less severe?

so you'd be the person that automatically thinks shooting someone is a crime?

The question was asked from a personal perspective. You don't seem to me like the kind of person doing things that warrant getting shot in the face, which is why this hypothetical was used from your particular vantage.

[trey_phish83]

Think about it this way...if they can call a few cells a human being, then we can also call a brick a house. A fetus is a fetus...it's like comparing apples to oranges...you can't do it. A fetus is a stage of development in the womb on the way to becoming a viable human being. The key word, in my opinion, in this conversation is viable. You can't take a fertilized egg that is only, let's say, 6 week's along out of the womb, dress it up, and call it human. It's still a grouping of cells with the potential of developing into a fetus and thus into a human being.

the law and the bible both tell me i'm not a murdered,

and nobody's shooting anybody!!!!!

[solitary.phoenix]

If Siamese twins are born, does the first one out of the womb have the choice to kill the other?

Babies dont have the abilty to choose. For that matter children arent allowed to makes choices till certian ages.

I still fail to see how it's the mothers choice. I don't have the right to destroy some legal documents let alone a life.

You can choose to take life. If your family member is on life support and your in charge of their health care, you can choose to take them off life support effectivly killing them. There are procedures to legally destroy documents

If my family members try to pull the plug on me it had better be after I had made the willing choice to grant them power of attorney and in accord with our previously made agreements on the subject. Unborn babies would have a hard time signing such a document or making such arrangements.

Even then...aside from that aspect... making "end-of-life" choices for an unconscious adult who is suffering/dying and making terminal "beginning-of-life" choices for a freshly created, growing baby who is neither suffering or dying are completely different things. How can you compare the two?

[solitary.phoenix]

Think about it this way...if they can call a few cells a human being, then we can also call a brick a house. A fetus is a fetus...it's like comparing apples to oranges...you can't do it. A fetus is a stage of development in the womb on the way to becoming a viable human being. The key word, in my opinion, in this conversation is viable. You can't take a fertilized egg that is only, let's say, 6 week's along out of the womb, dress it up, and call it human. It's still a grouping of cells with the potential of developing into a fetus and thus into a human being.

the law and the bible both tell me i'm not a murdered,

and nobody's shooting anybody!!!!!

This is where we simply disagree, Trey. It's a grouping of LIVING cells that already has genetic makeup, a determined sex and is growing by the hour. Using this logic, at what point is a person a complete human- a recognized person? When we turn 18? When we hit puberty? 1...2 years old? Human life is human life. It's not a convenient truth, but it is what it is.

And dude, for future reference- if someone tries to shoot you, by all means I recommend you try to shoot them right back. That is something I believe that we all have a perfect right to do.

[solitary.phoenix]

I can't read minds, but I thought I might throw this out there. If some of you reading this thread have had abortions in the past...don't let any deep internal guilt keep you from changing your stance on the issue. If you now feel that you were wrong to do what you did, it's okay to admit it to yourself. Hit the brakes. Everyone makes mistakes. But seriously- you feel that twinge of guilt? Listen to it...don't numb it. Confront your mistake and decide never to do it again. Do what you can to help eliminate widespread "peer approval" of this practice, thereby saving future unborn children from the mistakes of their own parents.

My personal beliefs are that the man upstairs doesn't hold us accountable for what we have done in ignorance. Or for things that we have genuinely repented of.

[jppd47]

If my family members try to pull the plug on me it had better be after I had made the willing choice to grant them power of attorney and in accord with our previously made agreements on the subject. Unborn babies would have a hard time signing such a document or making such arrangements.

Even then...aside from that aspect... making "end-of-life" choices for an unconscious adult who is suffering/dying and making terminal "beginning-of-life" choices for a freshly created, growing baby who is neither suffering or dying are completely different things. How can you compare the two?

Fetus cant sign documents, neither can children. Its the mother/parent that makes the choice for them. If no arrangment is made its gos to next of KIN.
Killing a sick man is ok, but not an unwanted fetus?
The fetus dose not have a choice in the matter because it cant make choices. The abillity to have an abortion is an advancment in medical tecnology just like keeping people alive longer. They both serve purpouses that help socity.

I really dont know where this magical cut off point is for when it becomes a child. But I dont think you should be able to take your healty born baby and kill it if you dont want it. But before its born thats a choice I believ can be made. I just dont know when the cutoff should be. Thats the question I struggle with.

We say its ok to let someone stay on life support after they should have died because life is sacred. We tell our selfs that they are drugged up and dont feel pain and if they did they wouldnt remember it anyway if they come around. But say that a fetus feels pain in the womb, but how many of us remeber our birth?

[solitary.phoenix]

I understand your struggle. I've been there, which is why I don't believe in being judgemental of people. It takes time to figure these things out, man.

Think about this- the inability of a child to make legal decisions and choices for itself does not absolve it's parent of providing care, sustenence and protection for it. To the contrary, the child's vulnerability and legal status reinforce those parental duties. It wouldn't be legal or ethical to let your child starve or die of exposure just because it has minor status.

In the case of life support for a suffering, dying adult- you are removing medical interference from a naturally occuring process, allowing what is happening to take it's course. This person would not be alive in the first place without sophisticated medical intervention. Even then, such a decision should not be taken lightly or made without seriously considering the possibility of your loved one's recovery. All human life is precious. Depending on your state, an advanced directive may even be required to give prior approval for such a drastic step to be taken- in effect, making the death in question a previously arranged choice by the dying person.

In the case of an abortion...you are doing the exact opposite of allowing what is natural to run it's course. You are in fact intentionally invading this living human's environment, ripping it from out of there and killing it. You are denying it the chance to grow and to become what it would be without your interference. It has no choice, it has no say. Terminally ill humans eventually die. Unborn humans do the opposite.

These clumps of living cells with odd little eyes and faces...they do feel pain. They do kick, they do move around. They do turn in to happy, precious beautiful little children that grab you around your legs and say "I love you daddy."

[solitary.phoenix]

Let me say one other thing on a somewhat related note...

I was raised my whole life in a very, very strict religion that taught very hard-and-fast rules. I believed in it with all of my heart up until quite recently. Having evaluated what I was taught to think, measuring it against what I've actually learned from the Bible I see how far off I was from the truth. I consider myself to be even more so Christian than I ever have been by letting go of this blind faith and adherence to rigid doctrine. It's a very liberated feeling.

I was taught that God is love...and at the same time taught that he was going to kill anyone that didn't know about enough about him. Man, what a difference this feeling is. Hindu? Buddist? Atheist? I don't believe that I'm any better than you. There are many people like you that will fare better in "judgement day" than people who claim to be God's holy worshippers (TM). Many of these people of various faiths (some with no specific faith) have done far better things for this world and to help others than I can dream of. You may be right about some things that I'm dead wrong about in my life- vice versa. What it boils down to is who we are on the inside, something that I'm trying to improve on every day. How you treat people. True Christianity is love- manifest in it's own peculiar way. Now to stop bashing Tyris...geez, that's going to take some prayer and horse tranquilizers.

/rant

[jppd47]

It wouldn't be legal or ethical to let your child starve or die of exposure just because it has minor status.

A fetus is not a baby/child yet, its a fetus.

These clumps of living cells with odd little eyes and faces...they do feel pain. They do kick, they do move around.

So do people "brain dead" people. People under an induced coma as well. Their physical body still reacts to touch. Some times they get tears in their eyes, that dosent mean they are emotionally crying. It all subconsious response.

[WhisperFan]

I think that no one here is going to change anyone else's mind.

I beleive that we all agree on one thing .... unjustified premeditated murder is wrong and the killing of another person without cause fits that bill.

The only thing that seperates us is the question of "when does life begin?" I know many, if not all the anti-abortion folks believe it begins the moment the spem hits the egg.

Many pro-choicers believe it begins at birth

Some other (probably a minority) believe it is at some point in the term - the whole viability argument.

So when person 'A' says they are OK with legal abortion, and peron 'B' asks them if they would also be OK with passing by an abandoned child ... person 'A' probably doesn't beleive the comparison is resonable. To the pro-lifer ... it makes perfect sense, they believe a zygot has the same rights as a fully developed and birthed baby .... the pro-choicer does not have the same frame of reference and does not use the same 'facts' that are 'perfectly clear' or 'well settled by science' ....

To bring this argument to another topic ..... there are many people that believe the 2nd Amendment is 'very clear' that it was meant to establish formal militias .... like National Guard.
Of course - we all know they are insane for what they think .... just as some of you 'know' that I am for what I beleive about the begining of life and abortion.

[libertyman777]

One day it'll all be clear. I for one, hope it's sooner rather than later. "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Rev 22:20 KJV

[WhisperFan]

Viability? So we should be able to kill kids provided they cannot survive on their own?

Few young kids can survive on their own.

Not specifically "on their own" but those that are not able to survive outside the womb without artificial life support are certainly not "viable" in my mind.

If a baby leaves the womb and the doctor says "you're child will not survive unless we put it in an incubator" you have the choice to opt for the incubator or let the baby go.

Even with life support. To me - and this is largely personal - viability begins when a featus can survive outside a womb with medical neo-natal intensive care and life support. Before that - at a time when outside a womb even with advanced medical assitance, the fetus can't survive ... at that point the fetus is more a part of the mother's body, than a 'person' of its own. Again - this is just personal opinion. But for me - a two cell zygot is not a human being .... not even at 1 week, 2 weeks, even 6 weeks out.