Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun database?

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Should Psychiatrists report psychotic people to the no-gun database?

Yes - Psychiatrists should report psychotic people to a no-gun database.
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No - why single out guns? What about knives, cars, gasoline, etc?
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silencertalk
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Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun database?

Post by silencertalk »

We know the Batman shooter guy was seeing a psychiatrist - who must have known he was psychotic.

Should they have to report people to be removed from being able to own a gun?

The downside is that some people who should not lose their rights will, and also - gun owners will just never seek treatment if they know they will be reported.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by rogerme »

First just because a person is / was seeing a psychiatrist does not mean they have a mental issue. My mother went to one who helped her stop smoking.


Now I understand this may not be popular but as I have stated many times I base my opinions on the Constitution. It is nobody's business if your seeing any mental health person for any reason. There is no part of the 2nd that says "except _____" I have the same feeling about those who get out of prison they paid there debt by serving there time. IMHO this is the famous slope. Once you allow doctors to report a person who is just going to talk then what do we then deny or remove firearms from the home of a person who's doctor tells them they have terminal cancer? Maybe then we can report all persons who are fired/ laid off from there job to the same gov agency? Maybe we could juts report anybody who holds a job with high stress levels?


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.



Right of the people not some people not people that have ____ not poor people not rich people but THE PEOPLE...
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by doubloon »

pre-crime ... "minority report" ... no thanks
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by ronin111 »

While I don't necessarily agree with mental health professionals having this ability I do think they have a moral responsibility to report someone who is psychotic (loss of contact with reality). I also believe there should be a way to appeal and restore rights.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by chrismartin »

The movie Shutter Island had a few good points about this.
Once you are in the system, anything you say or do can be seen by the doctor as a defense mechanism or other positive signs that acknowledge their diagnosis. Protest is just denial. Acknowledgment is just placation.

If you can't be trusted with a gun, you shouldn't be on the street (Felons, etc)

You can't prevent people from "snapping" no matter how much pre-crime you think you can diagnose. Therefore, it's hard to justify a database of metal issues other than forced committal (much like misdemeanor vs. felony crime).
If it was anything less than committal, It would be very easy to get on that list and very difficult to get off that list.

Oh, look, you have over a dozen guns, you are "crazy" and now on the list because some headshrinker thinks it is unnatural to have that many evil guns. Hell, you have a gun and you carry it? You must be paranoid delusional! Now you are on the list. Where do we draw the line on that? If you think about it, it's just the opinion of a doctor. Sure, one would hope that the diagnosis is correct and logical, but unlike real crime, there isn't really a true single event or law that has been broken. It would be just a doctor picking up on something you said. "Man, I really wanted to kill my boss today..." see, I didn't REALLY want to kill my boss, I was just mad at her. Well, you said it, even if you didn't "mean" it, you said it, so your subconscious meant it, ergo, you are crazy, no guns for you.

If Holmes was diagnosed as "psychotic" then I wonder why he wasn't committed in some fashion, then he would have been on the no-gun list.

There will always be evil people willing to do evil things.
Liberty is better to have than state sponsored "safety".
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by Libertarian_Geek »

Why is the hypothetical database a "no-gun database" and a "under full-time surveillance and guard database"?

Guns are just one tool that may be used by a deranged psycho/sociopath. Gasoline, glass bottles household cleaning supplies, high pressure flammable tanks, vehicles, airplanes, razor blades, poisons etc. The list goes on and on, but for some reason, guns are the focus. Had Holmes not had access to guns, he wouldn't have just given up. He would have tried to carry out his murderous rampage some other way.

Bad people will do bad things. This is going to happen. But pretending that a "no-gun" database wills stop that is an "iron door and paper walls" security strategy.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by chrismartin »

Libertarian_Geek wrote:He would have tried to carry out his murderous rampage some other way.
I said the same thing went he Virginia Tech thing went down. Cho chained all the doors shut. Imagine if he had used pipe bombs and gasoline? He could have burned the entire building to the ground. Same with Holmes.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by Maser »

No!

There's just way too much gray area when it comes to actually taking away someone's gun rights all because they are seeing a shrink. Some people just see them just because they want someone to share their problems with because they don't have anyone else to talk to them about it without judging them. Is that reason enough to take away someone's gun rights? Now as for evil thoughts that could make someone seem psychotic, who doesn't have thoughts like that? Just because we have evils thoughts about someone/something that pisses us off doesn't mean we actually will act upon those thoughts. That's why the majority of us were taught how to use proper judgement when we were kids. Does every teenager who gets the next GTA game run out and kill cops, people, and whores randomly in real life or get a copy of the next NfS game and blast down a busy highway in half million dollar cars going 300 MPH? I know that's video games, but it also applies to gun ownership as well. When you get cut off in traffic by a douche bag driver, do you go out and shoot him after you purchase your next gun or suppressor?

So there you have it. Having thoughts and acting upon them are two VERY separate things.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by rogerme »

ronin111 wrote:While I don't necessarily agree with mental health professionals having this ability I do think they have a moral responsibility to report someone who is psychotic (loss of contact with reality). I also believe there should be a way to appeal and restore rights.
So everyone with a mental condition will use a firearm in a crime? Why not ban everyone who works at the post office from owning firearms as some of them have been known to act out in a violent way. Why not go one step further and outlaw movies as we know by recent events they seem to attract this type of crime? My point is you can not predict with certainty what someone MIGHT do. Then think very hard on what YOU do that others may decide makes you a addition to this list..
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by CThomas »

Real slippery slope on this one. Different shrinks often come to vastly different opinions on a patients status.
Do some then make knee jerk responses figuring better safe then sorry. I guess if someone makes a threat
even if idle or jokingly then perhaps they should be shown the potential consequences of screwing around. Time and again
we have seen that these shooters have shown questionable behavior or down right crazy but a blind eye was turned or it was not recognized for what it could be. Who knows.

I have a cousin who for years seemed to be in her own world. She did not fit in with her actions and thoughts. It was definatley a case of not being in touch with "reality" on most days, but yet there was nothing harmful or dangerous in her behavior. After 20 years she was finally dignoised with bi-polar disorder and is now on meds. Making progress but she will never be quote un quote normal or completely in touch with reality. Should she be denied a gun as a single women who lives alone?
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by johndoe3 »

It seems to me there is already a process to handle this, and that is for a particularly dangerous person (in the eyes of the shrink), for the shrink and State to take it to court for a guardianship hearing. In this way the person can defend themselves, the court can order a 2nd or 3rd opinion from other shrinks, and the court can decide, if warranted, to temporarily suspend certain rights and privileges.

There should (and is) then a process to restore any temporarily suspended rights and privileges. There are already far too many people whose gun rights have been taken away for domestic violence accusations from arguments.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by Hush »

Hm, can we take this a little further, I'd like to turn in my neighbor who I think is a nut job.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by doubloon »

I know my neighbor is a nut job.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by rogerme »

johndoe3 wrote:There should (and is) then a process to restore any temporarily suspended rights and privileges. There are already far too many people whose gun rights have been taken away for domestic violence accusations from arguments.

Easier said then done. The majority of folks still think Delorian in in prison on coke charges. People remember the charge not the verdict.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by rogerme »

Hush wrote:Hm, can we take this a little further, I'd like to turn in my neighbor who I think is a nut job.

Exactly what will happen if this kind of thing continues. All conjecture only throws fuel on the fire of suspicion and what if's..
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by john308 »

I believe that this is a terrible idea. On the surface, it probably sounds like a 'reasonable' idea to many people - this guy is crazy, we don't want him owning guns. Besides the pre-crime and other issues stated above, I believe that the reporting will quickly spiral out of control.

The first time that someone kills someone else, and it becomes known that the killer was seeing a counselor/psychiatrist/psychologist for whatever reason, there will be a lawsuit from the victim's family. After that first lawsuit, I believe that people in the profession will become so gun-shy about the matter that just about any visit, no matter how routine or mundane, will result in an entry into the 'database.'


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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by JohnnyC »

I'll admit I voted yes. HOWEVER, I think there should be stringent regulations in place before a psychiatrist or psychologist can make such a recommendation. It's clear that people who commit crimes such as this have a screw loose. Trying to diagnose as such is obviously difficult, and I think needs further study. However, if it is in any way possible to remove nut jobs from the equation then the idea of gun control solves itself. I think there needs to be more flexibility in both the removal and reinstatement of peoples right in terms of gun control.

Should it have been apparent that both Colorado and VT could have been prevented by by positive action by mental health professionals? Certainly. Should it also be absolutely 100% conclusive before someone gets put on the list? Absolutely.

We need to treat the problem at its source. Of course I also think it's a societal thing. How many of us growing up were forced to harden the F--k up an deal with our problems as adults in a positive way? How many people today have that experience? Societal problems I don't think we can change overnight. The so-called "common sense" gun control doesn't address this, which is why it's as much bullshit as anything else. Of course the "solution" where you jack your kid up on Ritalin isn't a solution either. We need a a solid approach where the people with mental "issues" get whatever help they need, and those people with perceived issues grow a sack and deal with their problems in a constructive manner.

Sadly, the most intelligent and responsible folks in society are those 3 guys that died using their bodies to shield their go's from that Colorado assholes gunfire. There absolutely needs to be a change in the way we deal with people in this country, unfortunately I don't think that anything within our current social hierarchy is equipped to deal with it.

Either way, eff it, I've had a few and pissed that these assholes are ruining out great country. Read into it what you will.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by jlwilliams »

The underlying problem is the mental health industry. Not the mental health profession or field, the industry. In generations past carzy people were, to put it bluntly, crazy. Now they are medicated and counceled and walking around seemingly 'normal'. Now don't get me wrong, it's way better to have people living normal, productive lives that it was to lock them away in loony bins. That's the way the mental health industry used to work. If you were in any way metally ill you got locked up in an institution and the institution got paid by your family or by the state. Now they get paid to sell dope and rap sessions. Much more proffitable and effective especially if you measure effectiveness by money in compared to resource expended instead of measuring it by sick people getting well. If this country suddenly ran out of the anti psychotic drugs and all the other happy pills that 1/20 of the population is on we'd be screwed. We would be teats deep in folks you thought were fine who would be suddenly in the middle of massive psychotic episodes. The war on some drugs is a huge sham when they arrest people for selling you some drugs but if you buy your hard core psychotropics from clean white people with college degrees and your insurance picks up the tab it's OK. You can't hang out and talk about what bugs you with friends passing a joint but you can sit with a group session of others on pills and not be judged. I'm not seeing much difference. It's a war on some drugs. Ones that aren't patented.

As an aside that does relate to this discussion, my opinion of the psychiatric industry gives me reason to strongly object to the term 'homophobe'. Not that I give a damn about other peoples sexuality so I don't think of myself as homophobic. My objection comes from the truth that as recently as the '60s and maybe even the '70s they considered homosexuals to be mentally ill and some were institutionalized. Among the 'treatments' used was electroshock therapy. In short, these people who lived outside the social norm were considered 'sick' and imprisoned, strapped down and hooked to the battery charger. Nice. Now, a generation later, homosexuality is cool and people who don't like that are outside the norm. They have a 'phobia'. That's right, they may be mentally ill. The same dopes who thought homos should be zapped out of it now think "Now we know better. Maybe these guys are sick....." So, should guys who think homos are disgusting be zapped? Maybe psychiatrists are full of s--t. That's my theory. That relates to the thread at hand.

In a country where real homocidal maniacs are attending college, working jobs or going to occupy rallies if they can't get a job and want their student debt forgiven; how do we know who these nut jobs are? This guy and the Virginia Tech guy are clearly crazy and in years past would have been seen as crazy. Should we disqualify everybody who takes psychiatric drugs? That would eliminate some guys here on this board I guarantee it. Should we just give up and say "OK, if you are crazy but can maintain with your pills it's fine. You can have a gun" That's probably not much better.

I don't have an answer that would work. My rant is just that we have so many mentally disturbed people living in society and that I don't see a viable way to fix that given that the mental health field is a bunch of over educated idiots with licenses to sell dope. They aren't fixing the problem and they get paid to not fix it, they get paid to sell the dope and to bill by the hour for rap sessions. Guns aren't the problem. Crazy poeple are a problem. We have lots of both and when they come together the results are heart breaking and infuriating.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by Syntax360 »

I don't want people who need help to ever refrain from getting it for fear of losing one of their rights. In a very extreme circumstance, Psychiatrists should certainly be able to alert the authorities that their patient is about to snap - but only in such an instance of near-certain imminent danger should a man's mental health factor in to what lists he is on and what authorities know.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by renegade »

chrismartin wrote:
Libertarian_Geek wrote:He would have tried to carry out his murderous rampage some other way.
I said the same thing went he Virginia Tech thing went down. Cho chained all the doors shut. Imagine if he had used pipe bombs and gasoline? He could have burned the entire building to the ground. Same with Holmes.
Already been done with great success. I am surprised more nutcases do not do it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by bakerjw »

It should be an absolute "NO"

Last Fall I was really feeling poorly and begrudgingly went to my primary doctor to get checked out. I explained my symptoms and he totally misconstrued what I told him into something completely different. I was already feeling like crap and ended up having to scold him for not listening to the patient. i.e. me. I know me much better than anyone else and he needed to listen rather than jump to conclusions or finish my sentences while directing me to a predisposed diagnosis. So I felt very poorly and was irritated at having to deal with ineptitude which he then construed as me being a bundle of nerves and wound up real tight. He insisted on me starting Zoloft which I did begrudgingly.

If there were a registry for doctors to use to put high risk patients, then I have no doubt that he'd have considered putting me on it seeing how I was such a "bundle of nerves". This is not a slope that we should ever approach.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by doubloon »

These two should definitely be on the no gun list.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1124416
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by Bendersquint »

Revenge and jealousy could play into it as well. If there were such a database it would be an avenue to attack someone possibly without their knowing and change their life forever.

If there were a system it would have to be some surgically controlled that it would need its own Czar.
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by MV10 »

johndoe3 wrote:It seems to me there is already a process to handle this, and that is for a particularly dangerous person (in the eyes of the shrink), for the shrink and State to take it to court for a guardianship hearing. In this way the person can defend themselves, the court can order a 2nd or 3rd opinion from other shrinks, and the court can decide, if warranted, to temporarily suspend certain rights and privileges.

There should (and is) then a process to restore any temporarily suspended rights and privileges. There are already far too many people whose gun rights have been taken away for domestic violence accusations from arguments.
The answer quoted above really wraps it up, in my opinion.

I had a friend and co-worker many years ago who snapped. I mean, he went from being a really bright, funny guy to being escorted out of the building by security for scaring the hell out of people in the cafeteria with insane raving. Within a few days his family came down and took him back with them, and the sort of process described above took place, and among other things, he lost his firearms.

I'd be money that few journalists know (or care) that such processes exist and work.

It's the same old mantra: enforce the laws we already have...
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Re: Should Psychiatrists report people to the no-gun databas

Post by rogerme »

IF and I use the word IF as psychologists like other sciences all seem to have a different opinion on every patient. IF these "people" are so dangerous we have to worry about them having a firearm then woudl it not be better to remove them from society all together? Like pederasts they are not going to change and those who require meds to maintain there "sanity" then should they not be forced to do so?

Now we get to the argument that we are a free people and UNTIL someone commits a crime they can not be locked up. The same people who support he right of these folks to be free among us are many of the same folks who also woudl take the rights of firearm owners to prevent the bad guys from using them? So there are stupid people ( yes I think those who go into a place and shoot people for no reason are stupid) but they are free to be stupid. We are free to own firearms but our right to do is trampled to PREVENT those who would violate the law with them at our expense.

No other tool is treated like this. 100 percent of drunk driving accident are caused by someone using a vehicle illegally but banning cars to prevent it would be called stupid. Many more people through history have been killed with ROCKS then any other weapon but even suggesting banning rocks would be called stupid.
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