Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

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jimonfly
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Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by jimonfly » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:36 pm

Here is my plan, can someone comment on the correct order, or does it even matter? I purchased a Spikes AR Lower right after the election and its been sitting in my safe. I eventually want an SBR with a suppressor, but I was thinking of a pistol too, maybe 10.5" barrel. This was my thought process of doing things.

1) Build stripped lower into pistol
2) Create Revocable Trust and transfer pistol in
3) Apply for SBR (Form-1?) through Trust
4) Apply for suppressor through Trust

Does this make sense? That way, if I want a pistol, then I can remove the stock. I read that if I made the SBR first, then no pistol. Also, on Section 3d of Form-1, it looks like they want the overall length of the firearm, as an SBR, which I guess I would have to estimate? I can't build it and measure it before approval.

Lastly, with all the new gun laws being thrown around, is this a good time or bad time to do this? I haven't read anything specifically on SBRs or suppressors, but would hate to loose the additional $$$ for the stamps, etc. if it turns south. Is it just a gamble at this point?

Thanks,

Jim

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by jradz » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:16 pm

My understanding is that you can't go from rifle (including SBR) back to pistol. Only converting from pistol to rifle(including SBR) is allowed.

How was the stripped lower transferred to you? Was it a pistol or rifle?

As for things "going south", NFA is usually safe from changes. It was altered in 1986 but previously owned items were "grandfathered" in. No one here can tell you the future.

dtom29
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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by dtom29 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:23 pm

Doesn't really matter....once you SBR it you won't use it as a pistol anymore anyway. :wink:

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by BISHOP » Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:17 pm

I second that!!


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bkoski
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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by bkoski » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:11 pm

Here's how I did it.

1. Bought stripped lower receiver. Sold to me as neither a pistol or rifle, just a receiver.
2. Bought and installed lower parts kit.
3. Bought and installed a pistol buffer tube. Now it is originally built as a pistol, and can forever be reverted to pistol configuration.
4. Bought and installed 10.5" Upper. Now I have a really sweet pistol!
5. Formed Trust.
6. Assigned pistol to trust.
7. Filled out and sent Form 1 for SBR to ATF.
8. Used as a pistol for 6 months while waiting for Form 1 to clear ATF.
9. Received approved Form 1 from ATF.
10. Had receiver engraved.
11. Bought and installed Carbine Buffer Tube & Carbine Stock. Now I have an SBR.


I originally assembled as a pistol for two reasons:
1. I wanted to legally purchase and use a 10.5" upper while I waited for the Form 1 to clear, as we all know this takes months to complete.
2. Should the need arise to travel out of state on short notice and not have time for a 5320.20, I can simply re-install the pistol buffer tube, leave the carbine tube at home, and travel with the firearm in pistol form, not needing ATF approval. Another option is to slap a 16" or greater upper on, and leave the 10.5" upper at home, as this does not require the ATF approval to travel either.

(disclaimer) I'm not an attorney, but it is my understanding that if my SBR is not in SBR form (nor readily modified) then I do not need a 5320.20 in order to travel between states. Just leave either the buffer tube/stock, or the short upper, at home.

Here's the catch. As jradz pointed out, if the receiver was originally transferred to you as a rifle on the 4473, then you have no option to make it into a pistol. If it was transferred to you as a pistol, or just a receiver, you can go ahead and make a pistol. I used 29.0" overall length for my 10.5" SBR build. There was a topic somewhere here that had a list of overall lengths vs barrel length, that's where I got my number from. I also found it interesting that they want an exact length for something that you technically aren't allowed to assemble until they approve it. Got to love how our govt. works...

Definitely SBR the thing though, you will love it!

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:32 pm

bkoski wrote: I also found it interesting that they want an exact length for something that you technically aren't allowed to assemble until they approve it. Got to love how our govt. works...
You are APPLYING to make the weapon as your describe on the application, they need to know what you are intending to build.

If you can't figure out the lengths without assembling it then I am lost for words.

Its basic addition/subtraction math, its not hard by any means.

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bkoski
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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by bkoski » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:11 pm

So I need to measure, as accurately as possible, the butt stock, buffer tube, lower receiver, upper receiver, and barrel, not forgetting to account for any overlap once everything is assembled and/or all threaded together, when it is ILLEGAL for me to be in possession of all of these items until after the application is approved?

I understand your point of view, and I realize it is possible, but it isn't as cut and dry as you make it seem. Most of us don't have the best measuring equipment, education, knowledge, or experience of a manufacturer/gunsmith who does this type of thing on a daily basis. How far does my barrel fit into the upper receiver? How far will my buffer tube thread into the lower receiver? How much do I need to subtract from the OAL of my collapsible stock when it's fully extended, yet still overlapping the buffer tube? How accurate do my measurements need to be? My Silencerco suppressors are measured down to the ten-thousandth of an inch! I don't have the ability to make measurements like that in my garage, especially when I can't even legally own all of these parts until ATF gives me the go-ahead.

This is the same reason we see questions all the time along the lines of "will xyz suppressor clear abc rail?", or "will qwerty rings give me enough clearance for my 50mm objective?" Yeah, we have all of the measurements given to us from the manufacturer, but they don't always fit together as they are supposed to. In theory it's simple math, yes, but in the real world, in a hobbyists basement, there is always going to be an unknown, especially on your first build, until you actually put something together.

That's just my take on it. I can't know 100% the OAL of a custom, one off rifle without putting it all together and taking a tape measure to it. This is why I sought out other people's OAL for similar builds, and amended my Form 1 as necessary when I had everything together. I don't seek to offend anyone, just share my opinion.

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bkoski
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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by bkoski » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:19 pm

Bendersquint wrote:Its basic addition/subtraction math, its not hard by any means
I was going to make fun of myself and say this:

"Or, I can take the OAL of a 16" barreled AR15 and subtract 5.5" to get my 10.5" SBR length." :wink:

Then I found this:
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/XM-15.asp

And I can't figure out why they have 32.5" and 35" listed as OAL for multiple guns that share 16" barrels and collapsible stocks... I quit.

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by rockman96 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:51 pm

The easiest thing I've found, is situate the Rx (with the butt-stock mounted, and fully extended) perpendicular to the floor or bench or whatever you are measuring off of. Make sure it is plumb to whatever surface you are setting it on, and measure up to the center of the front take-down pin hole. From that measurement you can simply add the length of the barrel you will be using, and that will give you a pretty damn accurate over-all length.

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:23 pm

rockman96 wrote:The easiest thing I've found, is situate the Rx (with the butt-stock mounted, and fully extended) perpendicular to the floor or bench or whatever you are measuring off of. Make sure it is plumb to whatever surface you are setting it on, and measure up to the center of the front take-down pin hole. From that measurement you can simply add the length of the barrel you will be using, and that will give you a pretty damn accurate over-all length.
Here is the fool proof way to do it and why I am rolling my eyes.

1 - Take your complete lower you are SBR'ng with whatever stock you are using for the build attached.
2 - Install a non SBR rifle upper on it with a 16" barrel.
3 - Take the overall measurement and then subtract from that the difference of the registering length. (10.5" upper = OAL minus 5.5").

DONE.

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by SilentTech » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:50 pm

You had a small flaw in you idea of traveling to another state and not waiting on the form. Because it has been SBR'd technically it has been catagorized as a rifle and can never become a pistol again. Once it becomes a rifle it can never become a pistol again

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by rckshrk » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:38 pm

Also it is my understanding that once a lower is SBR'd, you will need ATF approval to take it across state lines regardless of what is attached or not attached for the upper... Or buffer tube for that matter.

Anyone?

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by Flat Tire » Sun May 12, 2013 11:50 am

rckshrk wrote:Also it is my understanding that once a lower is SBR'd, you will need ATF approval to take it across state lines regardless of what is attached or not attached for the upper... Or buffer tube for that matter.

Anyone?
So much of these laws are confusing. The Second Amendment should be my Concealed Carry Permit ? If I apply for a Federal Tax Stamp it should be legal from state to state. I wish the NRA would address issues that would be made more of a standard and not let things just get more confusing. It is a Federal Tax Stamp and not a State Tax Stamp. Idaho does have those laws that say if you make it here and keep it in this state then you can have. I don't know how they keep track of what is done, other then a requirement of engraving the weapon with "Made in Idaho". It might be legal in Idaho's eyes but not in the feds. Just like all the marijuana laws that different states are passing.

After thinking for a minute, why do the feds allow any state laws on these matters. The whole state vs fed thing is the problem. The feds should set and control all of this.

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by telero » Wed May 22, 2013 4:17 pm

SilentTech wrote:You had a small flaw in you idea of traveling to another state and not waiting on the form. Because it has been SBR'd technically it has been catagorized as a rifle and can never become a pistol again. Once it becomes a rifle it can never become a pistol again
According to ATF ruling, you should be able to revert a firearm that started as a pistol back to a pistol. It shouldn't matter if it has also been registered as an SBR.
http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-ru ... 2011-4.pdf

rckshrk wrote:Also it is my understanding that once a lower is SBR'd, you will need ATF approval to take it across state lines regardless of what is attached or not attached for the upper... Or buffer tube for that matter.

Anyone?
Per the ATF SBR and SBS FAQ, as long as you aren't crossing state lines in SBR/SBS configuration and don't have the parts readily available to convert to SBR/SBS, you are fine.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... tguns.html

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Re: Stripped AR Lower to Pistol to SBR to Suppressor

Post by TEXMEX » Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:15 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
rockman96 wrote:The easiest thing I've found, is situate the Rx (with the butt-stock mounted, and fully extended) perpendicular to the floor or bench or whatever you are measuring off of. Make sure it is plumb to whatever surface you are setting it on, and measure up to the center of the front take-down pin hole. From that measurement you can simply add the length of the barrel you will be using, and that will give you a pretty damn accurate over-all length.
Here is the fool proof way to do it and why I am rolling my eyes.

1 - Take your complete lower you are SBR'ng with whatever stock you are using for the build attached.
2 - Install a non SBR rifle upper on it with a 16" barrel.
3 - Take the overall measurement and then subtract from that the difference of the registering length. (10.5" upper = OAL minus 5.5").

DONE.

Does not get any simpler than this.

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