Automatics and the law ????

[ready_on_the_right]

What happened in 1986 to limit import or production or whatever on full auto's?

Where can I read up and why aren't we pushing to get it changed.

Mike

[Sid Post]

That law is still on the books and the reason why an MP-5 costs around $17K now and an old Colt M-16 is ~$16K.

Good luck on getting it repealed. I'm hoping another assualt rifle and magazine ban doesn't come our way with the Democrats headed to Washington. I hope I'm wrong ...

[ready_on_the_right]

Chaps my butt to see a WWII grease gun going for $18,000....ammo companies ought to be able to give those away to anybody buying a couple of cases of ammo!!!

I know politically it'll never be changed.

Does it mean no new production MG's of any kind?

Mike

[bonebreak2000]

Chaps my butt to see a WWII grease gun going for $18,000....ammo companies ought to be able to give those away to anybody buying a couple of cases of ammo!!!

I know politically it'll never be changed.

Does it mean no new production MG's of any kind?

Mike

For civilians yes. Anything that is transferable is all pre 86 and the amount in circulation will never get larger unless a new law is passed. I could see it changing some day. But it would only happen if it was challenged as a second amendment right. It would take the right people in the sup court to make it happen.

[Sid Post]

No new machine guns for civilians.

[ctdonath]

At the moment, any movement to repeal 922(o) is likely waiting on the final outcome to the Parker case. If the DC handgun ban falls, the final ruling will likely be a blueprint for ending the '86 MG ban.

[bonebreak2000]

At the moment, any movement to repeal 922(o) is likely waiting on the final outcome to the Parker case. If the DC handgun ban falls, the final ruling will likely be a blueprint for ending the '86 MG ban.

Even if it was lifted there could still be state laws made to ban them... There is a lot that could happen and I would like to see this happen but I'm not holding my breath.

[ArevaloSOCOM]

Dc vs. Parker is going to get that MG ban lifted.....................As long as the SCOTUS does it's job.

[ArevaloSOCOM]

At the moment, any movement to repeal 922(o) is likely waiting on the final outcome to the Parker case. If the DC handgun ban falls, the final ruling will likely be a blueprint for ending the '86 MG ban.

+1

Please baby Jesus, please.

[ctdonath]

there could still be state laws made to ban them...

At least it would be up to the states then ... and those likely to have probably already done so anyway.

Also, if Parker wins at SCOTUS, we'll see a push to get the 2nd Amendment "incorporated to the states", most likely with success. That would get most state gun bans repealed.

For now, it all hinges on Parker - and I expect SCOTUS will come up with an answer that will peeve everyone off on both sides.

[ctdonath]

ready_,
Re-reading your post I see I was a bit reactionary.

What happened in 1986 to limit import or production or whatever on full auto's?

The Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA) was passed, signed by Regan. It did much to improve gun-owners lives, including things like guaranteeing you could transport a gun from point A to B without being arrested for transporting it thru C (being a natural travel point in between). Unfortunately, it was amended via hasty voice vote late at night under questionable circumstances to include an outright ban on civilian ownership of any machinegun built after 1986; this ban became known as 922(o). This amendment was a "poison pill" added by anti-gunners in hopes to derail passage of FOPA; the NRA swallowed it to get the rest of the bill passed, and the legal poison paralyzed an entire branch of gun ownership.

Where can I read up and why aren't we pushing to get it changed.

Google "922(o)".

It takes a while to figure out the nature of a legal perversion like 922(o) and concoct a viable legal assault thereon. Lower-court judges tend to assume that enacted laws are legitimate, and leave Constitutionality questions to higher courts to work out. Machineguns are viewed as a "third rail" issue for legislators: no politician is seriously going to call for a repeal of the machinegun ban and expect to be in office for long, much less get viable support for the repeal. The President could conceivably issue an Executive Order directing BATFE, FBI, etc. to not pursue post-'86 machinegun ownership cases on the premise that he can't implement a law (922(o)) which plainly violates the Constitution, but the news-media-driven outcry would be debilitating. There are efforts underway to pursue lawsuit-driven overthrow of 922(o), but doing so requires establishing "standing" (to wit: the court recognizes that you actually have a legitimate case, and aren't a twit who should simply be thrown out of court), which is extremely difficult and unreliable; courts are very good at making cases go away, and most want this one to go away very fast, and have done so repeatedly.

The light at the end of the tunnel right now is Parker, an attempt to overturn the federally-enacted handgun ban in Washington DC. The DC Circuit Court (just one rung below the US Supreme Court, aka SCOTUS) has ruled - shockingly - that the ban is indeed unconstitutional. The issue is now in a holding pattern, waiting for DC to appeal the decision and for SCOTUS to accept the appeal. There are plenty of other discussions about Parker; Google them. The DC court ruling is strongly pro-gun, and written in a manner which you could just about replace every occurrence of "handgun" with "machinegun" and the result would be just as viable; should Parker win without complications, a clear path is laid for assaulting 922(o) and overturning the '86 machinegun ban. With all that being hoped for, the light at the end of the tunnel could turn out to be an oncoming train, and Parker could (considering stupid recent SCOTUS rulings like Kelo) be the great failure the NRA & others have been trying to avoid.

Hope that helps.

[twodollarbill]

OH!!! Do I remember the GOOD OLD DAYS leading up to 1986.
The M16A2 just came out and you could have it for $750, Nobody
wanted to order the Maramont (Saco Defense) M60 because you could
buy a Rock Island for $2000. The guys at S&H Arms were cranking
out great looking HK's........then came BLACK MONDAY!!!!!!
I bought as many registered sears I could find when they were
under $200 each, then they went to $500 each, we all looked at
each other when they went to $1000 each......I couldn't borrow enough
money from the bank to keep up.
A WORD TO THE WISE.....Buy as many "black rifles" as you can
in '07 and '08.

[bonebreak2000]

A WORD TO THE WISE.....Buy as many "black rifles" as you can
in '07 and '08.

I agree on this. Its why I went after the PS90 and FS2000. You never know when something wil change again.

[ArevaloSOCOM]

ready_,
Re-reading your post I see I was a bit reactionary.

What happened in 1986 to limit import or production or whatever on full auto's?

The Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA) was passed, signed by Regan. It did much to improve gun-owners lives, including things like guaranteeing you could transport a gun from point A to B without being arrested for transporting it thru C (being a natural travel point in between). Unfortunately, it was amended via hasty voice vote late at night under questionable circumstances to include an outright ban on civilian ownership of any machinegun built after 1986; this ban became known as 922(o). This amendment was a "poison pill" added by anti-gunners in hopes to derail passage of FOPA; the NRA swallowed it to get the rest of the bill passed, and the legal poison paralyzed an entire branch of gun ownership.

[

CT, don't take this agianst yourself, it's not meant that way.

But the late night/ Nra never saw it coming/ dems snuck the MG ban in "last second" crap is a Myth....


From Bardwell:

This is part of 1984 hearings in front of the Subcommittee on Crime, House Judiciary Committee, on Armor Piercing Ammo, and the Misue of Machineguns and Silencers. I have mostly included material on machine guns and silencers. This includes testimony from Stephen Higgins, and other ATF officials, testimony from John Tighe, chief of police for Pembroke Pines, FL (a big time gun grabber and very proud of it), and written asnwers from ATF to queries from the Committee chariman, William Hughes (D- N.J.). This includes some interesting info on NFA firearm registration at the time - the number of silencers has increased quite a bit, if you compare the 12,000 or so registered in 1984, according to this, to the 50,000+ registered now, according to the stats in Machine Gun News. This hearing was the start, or public start, of Rep. Hughes' campaign to end the new making of silencers and machine guns. It was not a surprise midnight thing in 1986, that the making ban on mg's was tacked on, as NRA sometimes likes to claim. In fact when HR 4332, the 1986 House FOPA bill was reported out of the House Judiciary Committee, it didn't have a mg making ban, but a silencer making ban. That was removed, and the mg making ban added. As a bit of sarcasm, the model number of the Group Industries made UZI machine guns, and the semi-autos, is HR4332, or HR4332S. These hearings also go over the incomplete silencer kit problem, and why silencer parts were added to the definition of silencer, making it impossible to buy spare parts, like wipes, by themselves, again due to the 1986 FOPA. If you go by the letter Hughes wrote to ATF Chief Higgins, (reproduced in the file) Hughes wanted to ban transfer, as well as making of machine guns and silencers. Also included is the textimony of Mr. George Kass, owner of Forensic Ammunition Service, which includes some neat sectional views of AP ammo, which I will get up as graphics files soon.



http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/us ... arings.txt


I recommend readin if you have the time.

I post this to end the "last second MG ban myth".

[ArevaloSOCOM]

OH!!! Do I remember the GOOD OLD DAYS leading up to 1986.
The M16A2 just came out and you could have it for $750, Nobody
wanted to order the Maramont (Saco Defense) M60 because you could
buy a Rock Island for $2000. The guys at S&H Arms were cranking
out great looking HK's........then came BLACK MONDAY!!!!!!
I bought as many registered sears I could find when they were
under $200 each, then they went to $500 each, we all looked at
each other when they went to $1000 each......I couldn't borrow enough
money from the bank to keep up.
A WORD TO THE WISE.....Buy as many "black rifles" as you can
in '07 and '08.

I could cry..............................

[ctdonath]

No offense taken, that was just a quick summary tossed out before my brain had been properly lubed with morning coffee.