Solenoid triggers

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kbs2244
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Solenoid triggers

Post by kbs2244 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:05 pm

Any of you guys heard of this?
Not silencer oriented but it seems it must be NFA related.

“The solenoid releases only when the trigger is pulled “

Isn’t solenoid triggers where some of the bull pup guys got in trouble?

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/03/ ... red-rifle/

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:03 pm

kbs2244 wrote:Any of you guys heard of this?
Not silencer oriented but it seems it must be NFA related.

“The solenoid releases only when the trigger is pulled “

Isn’t solenoid triggers where some of the bull pup guys got in trouble?

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/03/ ... red-rifle/
The ATF has classified solenoid triggers as machineguns in the past.

Now they MIGHT be able to get the signoff since its a bolt actions, but I do know a solenoid and a semi-auto is a machinegun since its just a change in programming and then its full auto.

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:35 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
kbs2244 wrote:Any of you guys heard of this?
Not silencer oriented but it seems it must be NFA related.

“The solenoid releases only when the trigger is pulled “

Isn’t solenoid triggers where some of the bull pup guys got in trouble?

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/03/ ... red-rifle/
The ATF has classified solenoid triggers as machineguns in the past.

Now they MIGHT be able to get the signoff since its a bolt actions, but I do know a solenoid and a semi-auto is a machinegun since its just a change in programming and then its full auto.
See: Remington eTronix. It wasn't solenoid operated, but it too was fired at the press of an electronic button.
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:58 pm

Libertarian_Geek wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
kbs2244 wrote:Any of you guys heard of this?
Not silencer oriented but it seems it must be NFA related.

“The solenoid releases only when the trigger is pulled “

Isn’t solenoid triggers where some of the bull pup guys got in trouble?

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/03/ ... red-rifle/
The ATF has classified solenoid triggers as machineguns in the past.

Now they MIGHT be able to get the signoff since its a bolt actions, but I do know a solenoid and a semi-auto is a machinegun since its just a change in programming and then its full auto.
See: Remington eTronix. It wasn't solenoid operated, but it too was fired at the press of an electronic button.
It was also a bolt action.

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:27 am

Bendersquint wrote: It was also a bolt action.
Right. So is the rifle in the OP, right?
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by doubloon » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:36 am

Impressive glass.
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by SRM » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:22 pm

do want! 8)

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by doubloon » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:59 pm

Bendersquint wrote:...
It was also a bolt action.
Sooooo ...

Not that it would be the responsible thing to do but ...

On a bolt gun, if someone clever figured out a way to tie the targeting mechanism back to the solenoid trigger such that the targeting system could automatically release the projectile at the optimum moment how might that fare legally?

I mean the "shooter" might be required to hold the "trigger" depressed and wave the gun around until the target was acquired then the scope would "finish" the job of pulling the trigger. Sort of a "delayed" trigger pull if it ever happened at all.

I realize of something like this worked it would take 99% of the sport out of hunting but in a military application it would be devastating. Especially if it would be made to work in a fully automatic mode. Just sweep the barrel down a line of enemy soldiers and let the gun decide when to shoot.
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:03 pm

doubloon wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:...
It was also a bolt action.
Sooooo ...

Not that it would be the responsible thing to do but ...

On a bolt gun, if someone clever figured out a way to tie the targeting mechanism back to the solenoid trigger such that the targeting system could automatically release the projectile at the optimum moment how might that fare legally?

I mean the "shooter" might be required to hold the "trigger" depressed and wave the gun around until the target was acquired then the scope would "finish" the job of pulling the trigger. Sort of a "delayed" trigger pull if it ever happened at all.

I realize of something like this worked it would take 99% of the sport out of hunting but in a military application it would be devastating. Especially if it would be made to work in a fully automatic mode. Just sweep the barrel down a line of enemy soldiers and let the gun decide when to shoot.
I've thought about the military application of a ball of barrels (and cameras, and electronics). Fire the basketball sized object into a window and if a camera lines up with a face, then the coaxial barrel fires. It rolls around like a roomba for 5-10 minutes or until remotely disabled.
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by doubloon » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:20 pm

You should put a clock in it too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYIUjnCSfVE

Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDtd2jNIwAU MUSAFAR!
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Eldos1 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:22 am

I do know that some disabled and bench rest shooters use a hydraulic system to press the trigger on the rifle. Also a hand operated crank is also legal if it operates the regular trigger on the rifle. An example of this is used on semi-auto 1919s.

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by doubloon » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:27 am

The 1919 crank is a manually operated device and the 1919 releases one round for every single press of the trigger. Once you put an electric drill on the crankshaft you have a problem.

Not familiar with the hydraulic benchrest triggers but I imagine it's also manually operated and it's probably on a bolt gun? So we're back to one round for every single press of the trigger.

The point -B- was making for solenoid triggers is he believes it's too easy to make a programming change to switch a semi-auto weapon to full auto. But then adding an electric motor to a 1919 crank is pretty easy too.
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:27 am

doubloon wrote:You should put a clock in it too.
pic...
I was thinking it would play a tune before firing. Maybe "pop goes the weasel", but in a broken tempo and somewhat slower.
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by doubloon » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:22 am

There was a movie where some catchy little tune played every time the villain killed somebody but it escapes me at the moment. Maybe something from the soundtrack of "Suspect Zero" would be appropriate.
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by rjacobs » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:37 pm

doubloon wrote:The 1919 crank is a manually operated device and the 1919 releases one round for every single press of the trigger. Once you put an electric drill on the crankshaft you have a problem.
Do you know this from experience? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:56 pm

rjacobs wrote:
doubloon wrote:The 1919 crank is a manually operated device and the 1919 releases one round for every single press of the trigger. Once you put an electric drill on the crankshaft you have a problem.
Do you know this from experience? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
The addition of electricity is where the issue is.

If someone made a crank actuated minigun then it would be legal to sell, since its electronically actuated its a MG.

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by rjacobs » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:05 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
rjacobs wrote:
doubloon wrote:The 1919 crank is a manually operated device and the 1919 releases one round for every single press of the trigger. Once you put an electric drill on the crankshaft you have a problem.
Do you know this from experience? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
The addition of electricity is where the issue is.

If someone made a crank actuated minigun then it would be legal to sell, since its electronically actuated its a MG.
My post was meant to be in jest.

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by doubloon » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:18 pm

rjacobs wrote:...
My post was meant to be in jest.
I think he knows that and was trying to add some clarification to my post.

I can't say my hand has ever been on a motor powered 1919 crank. :D
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:46 pm

doubloon wrote:
rjacobs wrote:...
My post was meant to be in jest.
I think he knows that and was trying to add some clarification to my post.

I can't say my hand has ever been on a motor powered 1919 crank. :D
Nailed it!

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Baffled » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:56 am

In the early 1900's, U.S. Army Ordnance guys did exactly what we are talking about... added an electric motor to the crank shaft of a stock Colt Gatling gun, and in tests, achieved modern rates of fire - 3,000+ RPM. The guns ran fine. Of course, since they used stick or Accles drum mags, they emptied in a heartbeat.

The concept was shelved as a curiosity. Still, pretty cool that they did it pre-WW1.

Where people get confused with cranks is the notion of the term "trigger." As in "Hey, it's still one shot per trigger pull!" Uh, no. If you add a DeWalt drill to a gatling gun, the trigger on the DeWalt replaces/becomes the trigger for the system.

One "actuation" of any mechanism - button, trigger, lever, - and more than 1 shot fired = machine gun.

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by ronin111 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:33 am

There was a guy on RimfireCentral selling electronic triggers for 10/22s. It doesn't look like he still making them though.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... p?t=317395

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by doubloon » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:01 pm

Cool find in the 10/22.

Sort of interesting in a conspiracy sort of way that his last post was in that thread.

He has a FB page as well http://www.facebook.com/pages/Electroni ... 4479145685

YouTube test fires back in 2010 ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKJqH7-KepI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CswaP5NG7dM

ETA: a recent post by BulZi Feb 13, 2013 http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?PHPSE ... 5#msg16825
No ATF letter is provided. Electronic triggers are legally no different from any other trigger system. Semiautomatic guns with electronic triggers have been commercially available for over a decade, including the Pardini SP 1 E and the MatchGuns MG2E among others. These guns also do not come with an ATF letter because no such letter is necessary for a one-shot-per-pull semiautomatic gun. There is a lot of misinformation circulating about electronic triggers, but if the design is semiautomatic only, it is legal.
EATA: this guy says it got a letter back from the ATF saying electronic triggers are good to go
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... 3&t=408555

Link to letter image :arrow: http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af1 ... edited.jpg
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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:25 pm

doubloon wrote:Cool find in the 10/22.

Sort of interesting in a conspiracy sort of way that his last post was in that thread.

He has a FB page as well http://www.facebook.com/pages/Electroni ... 4479145685

YouTube test fires back in 2010 ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKJqH7-KepI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CswaP5NG7dM

ETA: a recent post by BulZi Feb 13, 2013 http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?

PHPSESSID=r686jn4bnh62b9bnit1k8kj4c4&topic=2268.msg16825#msg16825
No ATF letter is provided. Electronic triggers are legally no different from any other trigger system. Semiautomatic guns with electronic triggers have been commercially available for over a decade, including the Pardini SP 1 E and the MatchGuns MG2E among others. These guns also do not come with an ATF letter because no such letter is necessary for a one-shot-per-pull semiautomatic gun. There is a lot of misinformation circulating about electronic triggers, but if the design is semiautomatic only, it is legal.
EATA: this guy says it got a letter back from the ATF saying electronic triggers are good to go
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... 3&t=408555

Link to letter image :arrow: http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af1 ... edited.jpg
If the trigger wasnt 400 something bucks i would get one and reprogram it as a mid to slow fire machinegun instead of converting the gun itself!

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Baffled » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:07 am

Years ago, I was pretty proficient in programming the PIC series of uProcessor chips. It would be child's play to use a PIC to power a 6V or 12V solenoid through a fast solid state relay, that in turn actuates a trigger like on a 10-22. You could have 5 recessed push buttons on a composite stock, and an LED that blinks to tell you what "mode" you are in.

You could have

SAFE
SEMI
BURST (2 to 5 rounds)
AUTO I (250 rpm)
AUTO II (500 rpm, or the fastest that could reliably actuate the host)

The electronics to do this would cost maybe $20, the actual solenoid another $10 to $20. You'd need batteries (I'd use LiPo's as used by the RC airplane folk in the buttstock) which would be another $40 per unit. Total manufacturing cost, aside from anything like special molded buttstocks, etc, maybe $50.

Of course it would totally be illegal, a postie, and anyone doing so outside of FFL/SOT would end up in jail. :(

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Re: Solenoid triggers

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:39 pm

Baffled wrote:Years ago, I was pretty proficient in programming the PIC series of uProcessor chips. It would be child's play to use a PIC to power a 6V or 12V solenoid through a fast solid state relay, that in turn actuates a trigger like on a 10-22. You could have 5 recessed push buttons on a composite stock, and an LED that blinks to tell you what "mode" you are in.

You could have

SAFE
SEMI
BURST (2 to 5 rounds)
AUTO I (250 rpm)
AUTO II (500 rpm, or the fastest that could reliably actuate the host)

The electronics to do this would cost maybe $20, the actual solenoid another $10 to $20. You'd need batteries (I'd use LiPo's as used by the RC airplane folk in the buttstock) which would be another $40 per unit. Total manufacturing cost, aside from anything like special molded buttstocks, etc, maybe $50.

Of course it would totally be illegal, a postie, and anyone doing so outside of FFL/SOT would end up in jail. :(
I used a pic to redo the electronics on an old Shocker paintball gun once. Little known thing about microchip PICs. You can get free samples from microchip's website.
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