SBS Engraved????

[ready_on_the_right]

yes or no?

[poizzin]

what are you asking?

here are a couple of answers :

1. Yes
2. Form 1 - Yes your info
3. Factory - Yes , form 4 - Manufactures info

[ready_on_the_right]

Was asking if SBS had to be engraved. I would be making one on form 1.


Thanks,
Mike

[Bendersquint]

Was asking if SBS had to be engraved. I would be making one on form 1.


Thanks,
Mike

Yes, everything you make NFA must be engraved.

[strom19]

Everything made NFA engraved? What if I didn't make the lower receiver and purchased one from one of many manufactures who offer them with a serial numbers already engraved or stamped on it? Isn't the serial number registered as an SBR along with the manufacture and location as mentioned on the form 1? After many inquires to the ATF and speaking to a field agent regarding engraving a trust on a lower, no one could give me a straight answer a matter of fact most of the time all inquires to the ATF had no Idea what I was talking about. If it's listed in their NFA hand book please send a link so I can forward it to this agent who is just as curious as all of us... Many Thanks!

[jmhallrn]

I'm not sure I completely grasp this, but here's the way I understand it. If you are creating a SBS or other NFA iyem, you must engrave it with your info. If you purchase one that is already registered, the original manufacturer has already done the engraving, so you don't have to.

In other words, if you use a form 1 it should be engraved. If it's on a form 4 the manufacturer has already registered and engraved it.

[Bendersquint]

Everything made NFA engraved? What if I didn't make the lower receiver and purchased one from one of many manufactures who offer them with a serial numbers already engraved or stamped on it? Isn't the serial number registered as an SBR along with the manufacture and location as mentioned on the form 1? After many inquires to the ATF and speaking to a field agent regarding engraving a trust on a lower, no one could give me a straight answer a matter of fact most of the time all inquires to the ATF had no Idea what I was talking about. If it's listed in their NFA hand book please send a link so I can forward it to this agent who is just as curious as all of us... Many Thanks!

Everything single item that is registered in the NFA is to be engraved, there are NO exceptions.

The key take aways are you are taking an already manufacturer firearm and making it into a SBS, you are NOW the maker of that SBS and your information must be engraved.

Another note is if you want valid and solid NFA advice talk to the NFA Branch, not some field agent who has no idea about NFA or even know NFA is a part of the ATF (yes, it has happened before!).

Here is the text right from the ATF published NFA Handbook that your agent hasn't read....

I will bold/large the pertinent areas.

"6.2.1 - All NFA firearms must be identified by a serial number and other specified markings95. If an existing
firearm is being used in the making of the NFA weapon, and that firearm is serialized, the existing serial
number should be used (unless it duplicates a serial number already used by the maker on Form 1) and
entered in Block 4(g). If the weapon is of new manufacture, the applicant must assign a unique serial
number and enter it in Block 4(g). For example, a unique serial number could be composed of at least 4
digits preceded by the initials of the maker. NOTE: alpha characters, e.g., a name, will not be accepted
as a serial number. If a name is to be used, there must be at least one numeric character in addition to
the alpha characters.

The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model,
and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon. The
marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to
section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements"

Here is section 7.4, again bold/large the pertinent area.

"7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:

(1) The model, if such designation has been made;

(2) The caliber or gauge;

(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.

Thats everything you need to know....the ATF agent should have already known this stuff and shouldn't rely on a civilian to provide that information to him....just sayin'.

[Bendersquint]

I'm not sure I completely grasp this, but here's the way I understand it. If you are creating a SBS or other NFA iyem, you must engrave it with your info. If you purchase one that is already registered, the original manufacturer has already done the engraving, so you don't have to.

In other words, if you use a form 1 it should be engraved. If it's on a form 4 the manufacturer has already registered and engraved it.

You are correct. Thats the easiest way to describe it, and it never donned on me to write it like that.

Form1 - You have to engrave.
Form4 - Its already engraved.

[strom19]

I believe the the word Manufacture is confused with assembled. One who replaces a shorter barrel on an existing receiver is not manufacturing that weapon because the receiver holds the serial # and they didn't make it.

Stating that this BATF agent I spoke with is "ONLY" a field agent is and is not knowledgeable enough is Interesting because it's agents like these that send you off to the slammer if you do brake the law..

[Abiqua]

It's already been said, but this example might help. I have a PS90, manufactured as a Title 1 gun by FN in Belgium, imported by FN USA, and made into a short barreled rifle by me under a trust. Since I took an existing Title 1 gun and converted it into an SBR, I'm the maker. All three entities (manufacturer, importer, and maker) must engrave their information, so my gun has three sets of engravings.

[ready_on_the_right]

Thanks guys! I just hear lots about engraving AR's never hear anything about shotguns.

Mike

[Bendersquint]

I believe the the word Manufacture is confused with assembled. One who replaces a shorter barrel on an existing receiver is not manufacturing that weapon because the receiver holds the serial # and they didn't make it.

Stating that this BATF agent I spoke with is "ONLY" a field agent is and is not knowledgeable enough is Interesting because it's agents like these that send you off to the slammer if you do brake the law..

Apparently you did not read the quoted text I put in my last response, I would recommend going back and reading it as it is all spelled out there, you are MAKING a NFA firearm(Form1) and must abide by manufacturing guidelines for the markings/engravings......

Here are a few other things to think about.

ATF does not have a classification for ASSEMBLED they only have 3.....MAKER, MANUFACTURER, IMPORTER.....pick the one that applies as one WILL applies to ANY situation.

One who replaces a shorter barrel on an existing serialized receiver is MAKING that weapon a Title2 configuration, therefore they are MAKING an NFA weapon.

ATF Form1 is an "Application to MAKE and register a firearm"

ATF definition of MAKE is.....
"i. Make. The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA) , putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a fiream." (THIS IS FROM THE ATF FORM1 APPLICATION UNDER DEFINITIONS)

Yes, your ATF agent is only a field agent and nothing more and based on what you have posted is not knowledgeable about the NFA AT ALL. If he knew the basics(which this IS very basic NFA knowledge) then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You also obviously do not have much experience with the ATF or you wouldn't try to defend their knowledge levels. I have spoken with ATF that have said that MG's are strictly illegal and only legal to be owned by the military and gov. Had a field agent(25 years on the job) tell me that he had never heard of the NFA branch and thought it might be something to do with Department of Defense and he was serious. Spoke with an ATF guy just 2 weeks ago that said silencers were illegal, only the CIA was legal to own them, and notified my local ATF that I was illegally manufacturing silencers for civilians and suggested a warrant/raid..... ATF called me laughing and relayed the story.

Your agent is merely the arresting authority, you won't go to the slammer until you are tried in court. At that court hearing he will testify but also they will have someone there from the NFA Legal Counsel or Industry Operations, or possibly both as the expert witness(es). THEY will give the expert testimony that will put you away or in this scenario have this Agent fired for incompetence. It would never get that far since in order for him to get a warrant for your arrest he would have to consult Legal/NFA/IO for the clarification and verification of illegal activities and the sign off and would be shut down at that point, saving his reputation/career and a costly lawsuit against the ATF as backlash.

[strom19]

Although I have several NFA items I never said I was a guru on BATF or NFA laws. I was asking because I didn't know and that's why I confronted the Miami Office of the BATF to seek out the correct information. And what they told me I understood to be trusted information.
I know how the bureaucrats can screw things up and most of the time one has to go directly to the source and that's just what I did. I wasn't defending this said agent in anyway I just inquired because I felt he had the information I was seeking. And if you read what I first mentioned in this discussion I also contacted the BATF in Virginia and they had no Idea of what engraving a trust name on a receiver was all about for an SBR.

I don't intend to make this personal however I do have a habit of trusting ones information when it's coming from a reliable source. Thanks for your input anyway....

[Bendersquint]

Although I have several NFA items I never said I was a guru on BATF or NFA laws. I was asking because I didn't know and that's why I confronted the Miami Office of the BATF to seek out the correct information. And what they told me I understood to be trusted information.
I know how the bureaucrats can screw things up and most of the time one has to go directly to the source and that's just what I did. I wasn't defending this said agent in anyway I just inquired because I felt he had the information I was seeking. And if you read what I first mentioned in this discussion I also contacted the BATF in Virginia and they had no Idea of what engraving a trust name on a receiver was all about for an SBR.

I don't intend to make this personal however I do have a habit of trusting ones information when it's coming from a reliable source. Thanks for your input anyway....

Nowhere did I say or imply you were a guru.

Your last post was the first time you mentioned a location which was MIAMI.

" If it's listed in their NFA hand book please send a link so I can forward it to this agent who is just as curious as all of us"

If you are saying that the agent you spoke with is your "reliable source" then you wouldn't be needing to provide the documentation to satisfy his curiosity......he would already know it and would provide YOU the documentation! A reliable source provides information, they don't ask people to provide it to them.....kinda kills their credibility.

Don't trust me and don't trust the uninformed ATF agent. Trust the documentation that the ATF publishes as it will be the documentation that prevents you from new bracelets, NO agent will stand up for what he says on a random phone call, at least no smart agent would.

The NFA Handbook IS the documentation where I pulled the above quotes and SHOULD have been where your ATF guy referred you to when discussing it.

I also quoted the definition of MAKE from the back of the ATF published Form1 application.

You can't get any more reliable a source than the ATF published documentation.

Was it the NFA Branch that you spoke with(before Miami field office) that had no idea about engraving? In the almost 10 years that I have been dealing with the ATF NFA Branch I have never known an individual there that didn't know about engraving requirements.

I challenge you to read the ATF published documentation and formulate an answer yourself. If you still believe that you are not required to engrave your makers marks on a Form1 NFA item then please bring your supporting documentation forward and lets discuss it.

Here are the ATF.gov links for you to read.

Form1 link
https://www.atf.gov/files/forms/downloa ... 5320-1.pdf

ATF NFA Handbook Complete Link
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... 5320-8.pdf

Relevant chapter as quoted above link(Chapter 6).
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... pter-6.pdf

Relevant chapter as quoted about for(Chapter7.2 which is reference in Chapter 6 above).
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/d ... pter-7.pdf

[Flat Tire]

I am not trying to be a pain in the ass, but, I just got my Form 1 back for a SBR and had an issue with the processing of the paper work. In box "4c" I listed ".223-5.56mm" and it was sent back to me with a letter saying "only one caliber can be listed in box 4c" so I took a picture of the gun (where it shows both) and stated that one is an american measurement and the other is metric, but they are the same and that is how it is listed on the gun. I gave them my phone # and told them to call me because I didn't know the right answer for box 4c, I simply put what was stamped on the rifle. I got a phone call from the person who was processing the paper work and she said it could be listed that way and was grateful for the picture that showed the manufacturers name, serial #, model # and caliber. So at this point I had someone on the phone to ask questions and she was being reasonable, so I asked a few more questions, and one was about engraving. She said that line 4h was left blank so nothing else was needed to identify the gun. Her answer was anywhere I went with this gun I needed to have this paper work with this gun and there was enough info on the gun and the paper work to identify it as my gun. She said that line 3b was there to show I was the owner and 4h was there to show any other info that was needed to make the gun identifiable, she said don't engrave box 3b only what was in box 4h and mine was left blank.

Now, I do understand she didn't know that .223 and 5.56 was basically the same thing and I didn't ask how long she has worked there, but she fired off the answers to my questions pretty quick, so it appeared she had some understanding of what I was asking. I think most of the forms the government uses are a little complicated. The way she explained what box 4h was for made sense to me, I left it blank.

[Bendersquint]

I am not trying to be a pain in the ass, but, I just got my Form 1 back for a SBR and had an issue with the processing of the paper work. In box "4c" I listed ".223-5.56mm" and it was sent back to me with a letter saying "only one caliber can be listed in box 4c" so I took a picture of the gun (where it shows both) and stated that one is an american measurement and the other is metric, but they are the same and that is how it is listed on the gun. I gave them my phone # and told them to call me because I didn't know the right answer for box 4c, I simply put what was stamped on the rifle. I got a phone call from the person who was processing the paper work and she said it could be listed that way and was grateful for the picture that showed the manufacturers name, serial #, model # and caliber. So at this point I had someone on the phone to ask questions and she was being reasonable, so I asked a few more questions, and one was about engraving. She said that line 4h was left blank so nothing else was needed to identify the gun. Her answer was anywhere I went with this gun I needed to have this paper work with this gun and there was enough info on the gun and the paper work to identify it as my gun. She said that line 3b was there to show I was the owner and 4h was there to show any other info that was needed to make the gun identifiable, she said don't engrave box 3b only what was in box 4h and mine was left blank.

Now, I do understand she didn't know that .223 and 5.56 was basically the same thing and I didn't ask how long she has worked there, but she fired off the answers to my questions pretty quick, so it appeared she had some understanding of what I was asking. I think most of the forms the government uses are a little complicated. The way she explained what box 4h was for made sense to me, I left it blank.

First thing you should know is that your examiner's job title is "DOCUMENT EXAMINER". They have NO legal training, they merely look at the document and make sure it is properly filled out and go by guidelines they pick up while on the job.

If you want legal advice talk to ATF Legal Counsel or an NFA Specialist not a document examiner. I have had examiners(that are still there) tell me as a manufacturer in addition to engraving the tube I have to engrave all components since all parts are silencers in themselves.....I have also had examiners(who are still there) that have said I can not make a new machinegun for a dealer sample.

Doesn't matter if she knew they were "basically the same"(which in the legal world means they are different), you are only permitted to have ONE caliber entered in there, thats what she is saying. Thats why a lot of people will put down..... ".22"

There is no such thing as "close enough" on a legal document.

With the markings that are currently on the gun she is saying it will clearly identify "X" gun AS "X" gun. You are still required to engrave your makers marks as stated in all the texts/regs I quoted above....there is no requirement to enter anything into 4H unless you have already engraved it. I have never filled in 4H but that doesn't remove the requirement to engrave my makers marks.

From the ATF NFA Handbook about making NFA by a non-licensee(that would be a Form1) (BOLD/LARGE EMPHASIS BY ME)
"The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model,
and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.96 The
marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to
section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements."

The Form1 is one of the simplest forms the .gov uses, its a very simple fill in the blanks form. i don't understand why people make it so difficult.

[AggiePhil]

We do not engrave our Form 1 items (SBRs and SBSs) here. Our local inspector concurs with this practice and all our Form 1s get approved by the NFA branch in Virginia.

Just put the original manufacturer name, address, and serial number on the form where it asks for the, you guessed it, manufacturer name, address, and serial number. You will be fine.

[LawBob]

Everything made NFA engraved? What if I didn't make the lower receiver and purchased one from one of many manufactures who offer them with a serial numbers already engraved or stamped on it? Isn't the serial number registered as an SBR along with the manufacture and location as mentioned on the form 1? After many inquires to the ATF and speaking to a field agent regarding engraving a trust on a lower, no one could give me a straight answer a matter of fact most of the time all inquires to the ATF had no Idea what I was talking about. If it's listed in their NFA hand book please send a link so I can forward it to this agent who is just as curious as all of us... Many Thanks!

Then u are not form 1ing it. You are form 4ing it.

[Flat Tire]

I am not trying to be a pain in the ass, but, I just got my Form 1 back for a SBR and had an issue with the processing of the paper work. In box "4c" I listed ".223-5.56mm" and it was sent back to me with a letter saying "only one caliber can be listed in box 4c" so I took a picture of the gun (where it shows both) and stated that one is an american measurement and the other is metric, but they are the same and that is how it is listed on the gun. I gave them my phone # and told them to call me because I didn't know the right answer for box 4c, I simply put what was stamped on the rifle. I got a phone call from the person who was processing the paper work and she said it could be listed that way and was grateful for the picture that showed the manufacturers name, serial #, model # and caliber. So at this point I had someone on the phone to ask questions and she was being reasonable, so I asked a few more questions, and one was about engraving. She said that line 4h was left blank so nothing else was needed to identify the gun. Her answer was anywhere I went with this gun I needed to have this paper work with this gun and there was enough info on the gun and the paper work to identify it as my gun. She said that line 3b was there to show I was the owner and 4h was there to show any other info that was needed to make the gun identifiable, she said don't engrave box 3b only what was in box 4h and mine was left blank.

Now, I do understand she didn't know that .223 and 5.56 was basically the same thing and I didn't ask how long she has worked there, but she fired off the answers to my questions pretty quick, so it appeared she had some understanding of what I was asking. I think most of the forms the government uses are a little complicated. The way she explained what box 4h was for made sense to me, I left it blank.

So I am quoting myself as a follow up to the ATF's paperwork they sent back to me. I sent them a photo of what was engraved on the lower receiver and what I put on line 4c ".223-5.56". They sent it back to me with the stamp and no changes made to the paperwork. It is stamped and shows .223-5.56 in the caliber box. They gave me a phone number and said if I had any questions to call them. So I called and asked the engraving question again, their answer was there is enough info on the lower receiver to identify that lower receiver as the one that has a short barrel attached to it. The answer was I am the owner of that rifle with that short barrel and I was not the manufacturer, simply the owner of said gun.
So if I have the paperwork (Form 1 ) and my drivers license- I would be fine. And there was no need to engrave what was in box 3b.

[lafsnguy]

Has anyone ever actually got in trouble for having an approved form 1 but not engraving the rifle with their info?

[-k-]

Why, would you like to be the first if there hasn't?

The law is PLENTY clear, a maker must mark just as a manufacturer or importer does.

[AggiePhil]

Why, would you like to be the first if there hasn't?

The law is PLENTY clear, a maker must mark just as a manufacturer or importer does.

Not according to the ATF representative we deal with in our area.

[-k-]

Good for him. Isn't the first and won't be the last agent or examiner that doesn't understand the law. Did he put it in writing and cite the law he believes applies?

Like the info posted from the NFA handbook. It cites the CFR so you can go read the law for yourself.

[lafsnguy]

No I wouldn't like to be the first. I was just asking. It seems someone would have to be arrested for something else for this to be even considered. No local LEO is going to look at your SBR and your paperwork and say you didn't engrave your info on your going to jail. I've been checked once while night hunting with silencers and a machine gun. The game wardens looked at my paperwork and didn't even to bother looking at the serial numbers. As soon as they saw the paperwork they were more interested in the night vision and how the silencers sounded.

[Kramer]

Has anyone ever actually got in trouble for having an approved form 1 but not engraving the rifle with their info?

Most CLEOs don't even know about engraving and many barely know what a NFA Form looks like, so I doubt it, they have a lot more to worry about than engraving. Just the fact that you have a copy of an approved Form 1 or 4 keeps them off your back.