ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

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ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by JakFrost » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:12 am

Called to check SBR Form 1 status from my submission on 2013-01-21. Was told this information so I'm passing it on.

My Form 1 should have been approved this month according to NFATracker.com.

I feel that this extra time is somehow a punishment by the government on the citizens due to the shutdown.
AAC Element2 .22
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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by L1A1Rocker » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:15 am

I've read a few posts on various board saying a bit of a different thing.

1) Are we looking at any new Transfers submitted taking 15 months?

2) Or are we looking at say, for argument sake; prior to .gov shut down you were 3 weeks from getting your form in hand (sent in in January). Add in 3 more weeks that the .gov was shut down and that makes 6 weeks out. BUT now that the NFA is back processing again, they are slow walking all "in process" applications and in this example tacking on 3 additional months just for the fun of it?

If this is the case I will be writing a Constituent Complaint letter to my congressman. If enough of us do this across the nation it could make a difference.

Edit: Is your avatar from Futurekill?

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:41 am

L1A1Rocker wrote:I've read a few posts on various board saying a bit of a different thing.

1) Are we looking at any new Transfers submitted taking 15 months?

2) Or are we looking at say, for argument sake; prior to .gov shut down you were 3 weeks from getting your form in hand (sent in in January). Add in 3 more weeks that the .gov was shut down and that makes 6 weeks out. BUT now that the NFA is back processing again, they are slow walking all "in process" applications and in this example tacking on 3 additional months just for the fun of it?

If this is the case I will be writing a Constituent Complaint letter to my congressman. If enough of us do this across the nation it could make a difference.

Edit: Is your avatar from Futurekill?
Do you think a complaint letter will get more examiners hired?

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by L1A1Rocker » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:53 am

Bendersquint wrote:
L1A1Rocker wrote:I've read a few posts on various board saying a bit of a different thing.

1) Are we looking at any new Transfers submitted taking 15 months?

2) Or are we looking at say, for argument sake; prior to .gov shut down you were 3 weeks from getting your form in hand (sent in in January). Add in 3 more weeks that the .gov was shut down and that makes 6 weeks out. BUT now that the NFA is back processing again, they are slow walking all "in process" applications and in this example tacking on 3 additional months just for the fun of it?

If this is the case I will be writing a Constituent Complaint letter to my congressman. If enough of us do this across the nation it could make a difference.

Edit: Is your avatar from Futurekill?
Do you think a complaint letter will get more examiners hired?
Yes. Congress is where all appropriations start. If they don't know there is a problem there is nothing they can do about it. Flood the Reps with complaints and they will know about the problem.

I've gone to my congressmen on a few different occasions in dealing with run away governmental red tape over the years. I've always had exceptionally positive outcomes by asking my Rep for help.

Edit to note. I'm talking about a specific Constituent Complaint letter. Not just a general complaint letter. This is when you have a specific problem that your individual Rep can/will help you with when you ask. It is actually one of the few reasons Rep are there. To represent the individual when dealing with the feds.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:07 am

L1A1Rocker wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
L1A1Rocker wrote:I've read a few posts on various board saying a bit of a different thing.

1) Are we looking at any new Transfers submitted taking 15 months?

2) Or are we looking at say, for argument sake; prior to .gov shut down you were 3 weeks from getting your form in hand (sent in in January). Add in 3 more weeks that the .gov was shut down and that makes 6 weeks out. BUT now that the NFA is back processing again, they are slow walking all "in process" applications and in this example tacking on 3 additional months just for the fun of it?

If this is the case I will be writing a Constituent Complaint letter to my congressman. If enough of us do this across the nation it could make a difference.

Edit: Is your avatar from Futurekill?
Do you think a complaint letter will get more examiners hired?
Yes. Congress is where all appropriations start. If they don't know there is a problem there is nothing they can do about it. Flood the Reps with complaints and they will know about the problem.

I've gone to my congressmen on a few different occasions in dealing with run away governmental red tape over the years. I've always had exceptionally positive outcomes by asking my Rep for help.

Edit to note. I'm talking about a specific Constituent Complaint letter. Not just a general complaint letter. This is when you have a specific problem that your individual Rep can/will help you with when you ask. It is actually one of the few reasons Rep are there. To represent the individual when dealing with the feds.
I know what a constituent complaint is. ;)

Please keep us posted on the results.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by HK45 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:15 pm

NFA owners need to complain often and loud.

It may or may not change anything, but our continued silence most certainly won't change anything.
Even a 60-90 day wait is totally unacceptable and it's time we made our voices heard.

It's not our fault, or our problem, that they have a huge workload and we shouldn't be penalized for it.

If the IRS was undermanned and backlogged there'd be a fix most quick put into place.
The same should go for the ATF.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by kalikraven » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:16 pm

I have decided NOT to buy based on the current wait times... You think that the industry leaders would see this and lobby congress to reduce the NFA times to increase business... I'm sure that I'm not alone.
Going a little more discrete here due to some of my opinions...

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by bkoski » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:42 am

Most states have a limit on the turn around time for CCW licenses/permits, with 30-60 days being the norm. I know this is probably apples to oranges, but I'd like to see the same happen with our NFA forms, at minimum...

We can keep wishing, or we can actually do something about it. I have zero faith in my "representatives" though, so any suggestions on where to start would be great. Thinking about a membership with the ASA, I like the idea of a group of people and manufacturers standing together as one voice. I haven't done much research into the org yet though. Good luck getting the NRA to support something like this, they are dead to me. I think it's time the NFA crowd is heard, but unfortunately we still bicker amongst ourselves.

Someday...

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by Bendersquint » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:37 am

bkoski wrote:Most states have a limit on the turn around time for CCW licenses/permits, with 30-60 days being the norm. I know this is probably apples to oranges, but I'd like to see the same happen with our NFA forms, at minimum...
As soon as any state processes 1% of the applications that the NFA deals with I can agree on that.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by HK45 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:10 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
bkoski wrote:Most states have a limit on the turn around time for CCW licenses/permits, with 30-60 days being the norm. I know this is probably apples to oranges, but I'd like to see the same happen with our NFA forms, at minimum...
As soon as any state processes 1% of the applications that the NFA deals with I can agree on that.
I disagree with the idea of giving the ATF a pass because of their workload. In any other part of government that problem would have been solved long ago. The ATF is not some backwater government office working on a shoestring budget, they're a major part of government with a multi-billion dollar budget. It's just that their priorities lie somewhere other than the NFA program.

The only way to solve this problem is for NFA owners to start raising holy hell about the wait times.
We need to send e-mails, write letters and make phone calls. Our continued silence ensures nothing will ever change.

If it took 8-15 months to get a tax refund check, you could bet that people would raise hell and that problem would be corrected ASAP. Same thing for any other part of government.

NFA owners are getting the shaft and many seem to be content with that.
We need to get mad real quick and make our voices heard in Washington DC.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by wacki » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:00 pm

Bendersquint wrote: As soon as any state processes 1% of the applications that the NFA deals with I can agree on that.

I process 15 terrabytes of biological data points a day using software written by 4 programmers. I laugh at your challenge.

From a technical standpoint anyway. I understand that gubment is where ambition goes to die. And where it takes 6 months to certify a watercooler for your office. (According to a DoD friend.)

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by cardboardkiller » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:55 am

Bendersquint wrote:
bkoski wrote:Most states have a limit on the turn around time for CCW licenses/permits, with 30-60 days being the norm. I know this is probably apples to oranges, but I'd like to see the same happen with our NFA forms, at minimum...
As soon as any state processes 1% of the applications that the NFA deals with I can agree on that.
From July 1, 2012 to June 30, 2013 Florida processed (new issue and renewal) over 250,000 CCW permits.

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content ... annual.pdf

Since July 1, 2013 Florida has processed over 60,000 (new issue and renewal) permits.

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content ... annual.pdf
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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:25 am

Bendersquint wrote:
bkoski wrote:Most states have a limit on the turn around time for CCW licenses/permits, with 30-60 days being the norm. I know this is probably apples to oranges, but I'd like to see the same happen with our NFA forms, at minimum...
As soon as any state processes 1% of the applications that the NFA deals with I can agree on that.
Apologize for them all you want.

3 weeks of furlough should equate to 7 weeks (at the most) backlog. Not 6 additional months.
It should not delay a form that's already months in the process by more than 7 weeks. This is evidence of slow-walking the process.
(Thanks L1A1 for the inspiration on these points)

There's never been any meaningful attempt to improve the speed or efficiency of the NFA examiner process. It was always meant to be a deterrent to the citizens.
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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by 66427vette » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:40 am

It is only going to get worse. We have sold more in last 60 days than last 6 months.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by wacki » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:21 pm

66427vette wrote:It is only going to get worse. We have sold more in last 60 days than last 6 months.

Great so I can expect my SBR and next 5.56 can to come in late 2015 or early 2016.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by L1A1Rocker » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:52 pm

I dropped off a constituent complaint letter to my congressman this morning.
Xxxxxxx x xxxxxx
Xxxx xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxx TX xxxxx
xxx-xxx-xxxx

The Honorable Lamar Smith
Congressman 21st District of Texas

Date: October 28, 2013

Re: Assistance with processing applications submitted to the National Firearm Act branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, firearms, and Explosives.

On February 6, 2013 I sent three (3) applications to the National Firearm Act branch of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, firearms, and Explosives (NFA) to obtain approval for the home manufacture of Title II firearms. These included two (2) silencers serial numbers xxxxxxxx and xxxxxxxx; and an application for a Short Barreled Rifle serial number xxxxxxx. These applications were submitted under a trust in the name of “XXX XXX Trust”.

On or about July 23, 2013 I received two of the applications back for minor correction. They were corrected and posted back the following day.

On Monday September 30, 2013 I called NFA to check the status of those three (3) applications. I was told that they were “awaiting approval” as of August 6th. This is sometimes referred to as “second approval” or “final approval”. What it means, my paperwork was in a stack awaiting signature, envelope, and stamp.

I should also note at this time, that ATF on or about the end of August, has proposed a rules and documentation change with regard to the processing of applications under a Trust. These new rules would require that all “responsible persons” be required to submit photos, fingerprints, and obtain local law enforcement sign-off on the application for each “responsible person”. Please note that ATF fails to define a “responsible person” on a trust, nor does it have the authority to compel local law enforcement to sign the form. This affectively gives one person (the head of the local law enforcement agency) the dictatorial power to veto a citizens’ application for a Title II firearm by simply refusing to sign the document. The ATF has acknowledged that there has NEVER been an incident of an prohibited person obtaining access to a firearm through a trust (as such would be illegal under current law) but are asking for this rules change without regard to current laws that make such actions illegal. It is clearly an attempt making lawful gun ownership as difficult as possible with no benefit to safety or security. It is strictly a solution to a non-existent problem. Please do not allow the ATF to unilaterally, without congressional oversight, change what has stood since 1934 without any problems. In response to the proposed rules change; on September 3, 2013 I sent in three (3) more NFA applications hoping to get in “under the wire”, as it were. Those applications were for two (2) silencers serial numbers, xxxxxxx and xxxxxx and one Short barreled rifle serial number xxxxxxx.

This morning October 28, 2013 I logged onto a web site that tracks NFA application. It does this by having folks awaiting their forms volunteer their information to the web site. (You can find it at http://www.nfatracker.com/) The web site lists the various states of process as they travel through the NFA approval process. (Things such as date sent, received at NFA, check cashed, pending, 2nd pending, and approval are tracked) There I noticed that my applications submitted in February should have been received by now. This prompted me to call NFA to check the status of my applications.

I spoke to a lady named Vicky. She informed be that the “new system” only tracks from the date the application was received and that the NFA no longer logs any other dates, such as pending or approved dates. As such she could not tell me a date to expect my forms back. She could only tell me that current estimates are 15 months from date of receipt. She blamed it on "revenue not being appropriated". I asked for clarification. She said it was due to the government furlough. I asked, "A 3 week furlough means a 5 month delay in processing?" “Well, it's because we kept receiving applications during that 3 weeks.” Was her answer. I know that the mail was running and that the NFA did continue to receive applications, but that explanation just doesn’t pass the “smell test” to me. I’ll say again, that I have three (3) applications that have been waiting since the beginning of August for only a signature, envelope and stamp. It makes me wonder if the NFA is intentionally delaying applications so as to apply the new rules (mentioned above) to them and cut the amount of approvals that citizens should rightfully receive.

Congressman, in years past you helped me with a similar situation where the NFA appeared to be intentionally slow walking my application. I’m sorry, but I must ask for your help again.

What I’m asking assistance for:

1) Insure that the paperwork for serial number items xxxxxxx, xxxxxxxx, and xxxxxx that were sent in in February, be processed in a timeframe more appropriate to a continues workload interrupted by a three (3) week shut down, and not with an arbitrary 5 months tacked on. Wholly unacceptable.
2) That the NFA go back to the old “system” of tracking paperwork through its various processes to better gauge when citizens may expect their approvals. The “new system” seems designed to hide intentional delays.
3) Do what ever is within the Congressman’s authority to speed up the processing of NFA applications. In particular, my applications serial numbers xxxxx, xxxxxxx, and xxxxxx. In today’s electronic world this process should be a matter of weeks, not months, and most defiantly not more than a year.
4) Do not allow the NFA to unilaterally change, without congressional oversight, the way applications under a trust are processed.
5) Ensure that any changes to documentation required to process NFA trust applications are only applied to NEW applications; and that any applications already received by NFA are not further delayed by implementing new regulations on them. (That they are in affect “Grandfathered” under the old requirements)


Thank you,
The above letter has a few typos in it that were corrected. Ya'll get the idea.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by wacki » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:39 pm

Do we have a list of NFA friendly congress critters?

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by HK45 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:43 am

L1A1Rocker wrote:
I dropped off a constituent complaint letter to my congressman this morning.

.
I applaud you sir, and I will send a letter today to my representative Joe Barton.
You are doing the right thing and others should follow your lead.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by Vagabond » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:18 pm

L1A1Rocker wrote:
The above letter has a few typos in it that were corrected. Ya'll get the idea.

i sent multiple letters to Lamar Smith at the opening of the 90 day comment period on the changes to the NFA Trust rule changes. i have talked with their office about it when they called me back to follow up. They were trying to get a hold of the ATF to express their displeasure with these changes and were supposed to be bird-dogging it. I am going to follow up with the direct line to an aide in his office named Curtis and ill see what he says has happened thus far. He told me during our last conversation to keep him informed on anything that I am monitoring with regards to the ATF and second amendment issues, as Rep. Smith is the chair of the House Judiciary Committee.

I will bring up the subject of the wait times and those issues and press him to return my phone call after he finds out some more information, then ill determine if i need to start writing a letter a day, like Andy Dufrane.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by Sigproshooter » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:01 pm

Libertarian_Geek wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
bkoski wrote:Most states have a limit on the turn around time for CCW licenses/permits, with 30-60 days being the norm. I know this is probably apples to oranges, but I'd like to see the same happen with our NFA forms, at minimum...
As soon as any state processes 1% of the applications that the NFA deals with I can agree on that.
Apologize for them all you want.

3 weeks of furlough should equate to 7 weeks (at the most) backlog. Not 6 additional months.
It should not delay a form that's already months in the process by more than 7 weeks. This is evidence of slow-walking the process.
(Thanks L1A1 for the inspiration on these points)

There's never been any meaningful attempt to improve the speed or efficiency of the NFA examiner process. It was always meant to be a deterrent to the citizens.

Agreed.

I'm always amazed at the people who are apologists for any .gov failures,delays or utter mischief.
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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by L1A1Rocker » Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:25 am

Vagabond wrote:
L1A1Rocker wrote:
The above letter has a few typos in it that were corrected. Ya'll get the idea.

i sent multiple letters to Lamar Smith at the opening of the 90 day comment period on the changes to the NFA Trust rule changes. i have talked with their office about it when they called me back to follow up. They were trying to get a hold of the ATF to express their displeasure with these changes and were supposed to be bird-dogging it. I am going to follow up with the direct line to an aide in his office named Curtis and ill see what he says has happened thus far. He told me during our last conversation to keep him informed on anything that I am monitoring with regards to the ATF and second amendment issues, as Rep. Smith is the chair of the House Judiciary Committee.

I will bring up the subject of the wait times and those issues and press him to return my phone call after he finds out some more information, then ill determine if i need to start writing a letter a day, like Andy Dufrane.
Excellent. I have not heard back as of yet. I guess I better follow up with tomorrow. Out of curiosity, what office are you working with? I've been in contact with his Kerrville office myself.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by Vagabond » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:06 am

L1A1Rocker wrote:
Vagabond wrote:
L1A1Rocker wrote:
The above letter has a few typos in it that were corrected. Ya'll get the idea.

i sent multiple letters to Lamar Smith at the opening of the 90 day comment period on the changes to the NFA Trust rule changes. i have talked with their office about it when they called me back to follow up. They were trying to get a hold of the ATF to express their displeasure with these changes and were supposed to be bird-dogging it. I am going to follow up with the direct line to an aide in his office named Curtis and ill see what he says has happened thus far. He told me during our last conversation to keep him informed on anything that I am monitoring with regards to the ATF and second amendment issues, as Rep. Smith is the chair of the House Judiciary Committee.

I will bring up the subject of the wait times and those issues and press him to return my phone call after he finds out some more information, then ill determine if i need to start writing a letter a day, like Andy Dufrane.
Excellent. I have not heard back as of yet. I guess I better follow up with tomorrow. Out of curiosity, what office are you working with? I've been in contact with his Kerrville office myself.
Washington office.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by husher1 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:51 am

That letter to Rep. Lamar Smith seemed well written. I hope it has some positive results, especially with respect to the lag times. However, it is my understanding that the changes with respect to NFA trusts will come about as a consequence of an Executive Order. Under such circumstances, the Congressman may not be able to help on the trust issue.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by danb35 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:41 am

husher1 wrote:However, it is my understanding that the changes with respect to NFA trusts will come about as a consequence of an Executive Order. Under such circumstances, the Congressman may not be able to help on the trust issue.
Your understanding is incorrect; there is no executive order. ATF has proposed new rules regarding trusts, LLCs, corporations, etc. There is a 90-day comment period (which closes soon), and then the agency can publish a final rule. It's possible (though I don't know how likely) that direct intervention from a member of Congress could result in some changes in the final rule.

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Re: ATF NFA - Wait Time Is Now 15-Months (As of 2013-10-25)

Post by Snake-eater 1 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:40 am

I mailed my last Form 4 for a suppressor on 5 February 2013. My FFL received the approved form back on 21 November 2013. Form was signed by Dana Pickles. That's about 9 1/2 months including the government shutdown.
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Our battles are bloody drills."
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