Early Colt SP-1 with M-16 parts?

[Ratbat]

I heard some of the early Colt SP-1s were made with M-16 internals. Is this true or just an urban myth? If true, is there a serial # cut-off when only AR-15 parts were used, and what internals were M-16? I don't have one, just curious.

[Bendersquint]

Yes it is true, they still use M16 parts in their guns.

BCG is where the M16 parts are.

[continuity]

Possess one....

[Ratbat]

Don't have one. Just heard a rumor.

[kassenz]

I live in WA.
One part of a machine gun in your possession counts as a machine gun. Including a M-16 bolt.
But, Colt, CMMG, and a few other brands all come from the factory semi auto with what looks like a full auto style bolt.
Makes me wonder what kind of wizzardry or legal agreement is going on so they can they can legally sell them like this, or buyers can possess it.

Back in 2002 during the "assault rifle" ban, police pulled me over leaving the range. I had a "pre-ban" Colt blue label sporter from 1989 (no bayonet lug) and an open bolt MAC10 I had RPB convert to closed bolt and local police and ATF came to my door, without a warrant and searched my house and car claiming a pre ban firearm or pre ban parts like telescoping stock was illegal to possess. They never pressed charges, but kept a few grand in guns I had all the receipts for. To make a long story short.

I think they are like my ex. Write the rules on the spot and rules don't apply to them..

Makes me wonder if any of you guys have had issues with bolts or old parts on AR's...

[urban assault]

Just curious as to whether the Thugs eventually(or never) returned your lawfully-owned firearms.

A curse upon their ilk regardless of outcome.

-urban

[kassenz]

I was officially told they were being inspected to see it they were stolen or contrabanned.

Unofficially the lead agent Brian Downey and Ben Silva told me it's "..its ok to cry, because I was never going to see them again"

Again, these both were stock semi auto firearms bought over the counter at a retail firearms shop, and taken 100 feet from an licensed FFL/indoor shooting range in Bellevue WA in 2002.
I spent over $16000 in legal fees to get them back and was never charged with a crime.
I was asked by ATF at the Seattle Federal building to wear a wire and report any "leads" to ATF for while I was at work at my day job at Central Guns (FFL retail gunshop) in Seattle WA

While I fallow the law to the letter of the law, and have had near perfect audits for the 5+ years I worked at gun shops, I declined to offer any assistance or give any info of any clients to the Federal or local law enforcement agencies.

I don't recommend making any modifications to your firearms that would risk ATF showing up at your house in the middle of the night without a warrant. Oil filter adapters, sears, even threaded barrels is the kind of s--t they hunt for.
Over 200,000 people in the USA are hobbiests into NFA items like suppressors. Most of the people that own suppressors and AR 15 style rifles are not judges, lawyers, or law enforcement. These guys that came to my car and my house had NO IDEA what the laws are on open/closed bolt guns or AR 15 aftermarket. These non gun owning feds are who you will be arguing with.

I ALWAYS have a copy of my trust, tax stamp, and zerox of paperwork/receipts with me, and I have had to show them several times since 2002 when I go to the range.

s--t like a M 16 bolt = 11 months in court at $300 hr for legal representation

My Colt had a small sporter style post ban style bolt. Not an SP1 style.

Makes me wonder if anyone here has had this problem before.

Or if they are still serving a 10 year sentence for owning an AR with a factory telescoping stock or M16 style bolt.

Apparently my once open bolt semi auto 1968 Ingram MAC 10 9mm is still considered a machine gun even after the owner of RPB welded it permanently semi auto closed bolt 45acp. I had the bag of left over parts that I was planning on giving to the guys at Bowers at the next Albany shoot, but possession of the parts, semi auto parts, even with the frame professionally shortened and altered to modern close bolt semi, is still a no-no to ATF.
I didn't fight or argue. I let them keep it and show it off to their supervisors to show what a "fine catch they took off the streets."
I don't even own an AR 15 anymore.
Even if I were to financially recover and afford a NFA registered class III firearm, I'd still avoid it, because these guys are hunters eager to meet thier quota at any cost and see no difference between a successful businessman that legally collects firearms, and a criminal.

There is only one way they will take my 1911 or TC Contender from me.. I do what it takes to never have to go thru that again. Molon labe

[urban assault]

Wow.

I don't think there are enough lamp posts to 'cleanse' these problems from our country... so we'll just have to build more.

Sorry for your troubles.

-urban

[Bendersquint]

Can you cite the law about the single mg part being a mg?

I have never heard of that and it seems you were targeted too.

[kassenz]

I'm sure is a unique law to Washington state
We had no class III, SBR or and only 4000 people had cans as an LLC or Inc. Until the trust became mainstream in 2006-ish
I will try to find you the link when I'm off work

[renegade]

I live in WA.
One part of a machine gun in your possession counts as a machine gun. Including a M-16 bolt.

Completely false, perhaps you are confused between a "F/A Part", and a "Conversion Part".

AFAIK every AR shipped for the last decade or or so has at a least one "F/A part".

[renegade]

I heard some of the early Colt SP-1s were made with M-16 internals. Is this true or just an urban myth? If true, is there a serial # cut-off when only AR-15 parts were used, and what internals were M-16? I don't have one, just curious.

I have heard it too but cannot confirm. The earliest SP1 I owned has SN around 25000, it had all semi-auto parts.

[kassenz]

Edited
Android double post error

[kassenz]

Rainier Arms is in WA and they've been selling all kinds of parts for years.
Same thing with Colt SP1 ' S and 6903's marked LOE. Over the counter. But I wonder if anyone has had to go to court.
Every case I've heard about, they were caught with illegal unregistered suppressors and unregistered class II conversion parts and got busted.
Parts like SP1 bolts weren't a red flag

More concerned with sears.

[telero]

Here is the RCW (Washington statute):
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.190

It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.

If you take out some of the non machine gun language clean it up a bit, it reads something like:

It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, or [any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use] in converting a weapon into a machine gun; or to assemble or repair any machine gun.

It's a pretty big stretch to say that a BCG that can be used in an MG is intended solely and exclusively for use in a MG when industry standard is to include them with non MGs. Also ATF saying that FA BCGs are allowed on non MGs. Don't know if that was the stance/stated in writing by the ATF at the time this happened. As a state issue, I could see this being a problem, but this instance sounds like it was a Federal issue since the ATF was involved. ATF doesn't have a habit of enforcing state laws, do they?

[Bendersquint]

Here is the RCW (Washington statute):
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.190

It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or to assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle.

If you take out some of the non machine gun language clean it up a bit, it reads something like:

It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun; or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, or [any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use] in converting a weapon into a machine gun; or to assemble or repair any machine gun.

It's a pretty big stretch to say that a BCG that can be used in an MG is intended solely and exclusively for use in a MG when industry standard is to include them with non MGs. Also ATF saying that FA BCGs are allowed on non MGs. Don't know if that was the stance/stated in writing by the ATF at the time this happened. As a state issue, I could see this being a problem, but this instance sounds like it was a Federal issue since the ATF was involved. ATF doesn't have a habit of enforcing state laws, do they?

The ATF DOES enforce state laws when it comes to NFA.

The fact that the M16 BCG is used in semi's all the time makes it fall out of the category of "solely and exclusively".

[renegade]

It's a pretty big stretch to say that a BCG that can be used in an MG is intended solely and exclusively for use in a MG when industry standard is to include them with non MGs.

Not really. Folks installing them illegally does not change the law. WA NFA Law is screwed up, we have known that for a while.

Note the Federal Definition of a MG is slightly different, adding intent:

b) Machinegun. The term 'machine- gun' means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily re- stored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

So since a F/A BCG is not a conversion part or intended for conversion, nor is it a combination of parts from which which a MG can be assembled, they are GTG under Federal Law.

[telero]

Not really. Folks installing them illegally does not change the law. WA NFA Law is screwed up, we have known that for a while.

Agreed.

So since a F/A BCG is not a conversion part or intended for conversion, nor is it a combination of parts from which which a MG can be assembled, they are GTG under Federal Law.

Should be legal under WA law as well. Doesn't mean you can't be charged/prosecuted for it though.

[kassenz]

Before 2009 we couldn't SHOOT a legally owned suppressor, but a LLC or Inc, or trust could possess one.

We just passed the SBR to law last (March 2014) month.
But, could have TC Contender with both stock, carbine barrel, pistol barrel, and pistol grip in the same house.
We could have a pistol AR lower and have a either a 16+ inch barrel and a 7 inch (<16 inch) upper, but if you had a pistol upper for what was marked "Rifle" on you 4473, then you're at risk for unlawful SBR.
But, that might have been nationwide.

As for machine gun parts, during the 1994-2004 "Assault Rifle" ban it was a hot subject. They were looking.
I'm not sure if they are 'hot on it' as gun sales and suppressor sales is up.

As I said, if you have your good guy paperwork, they will check it, and loose interest if everything is in order.
Keep a copy of your trust/stamp/FFL with you and they usually go away.

I had one incidence that was unusual that I thought you might be interested in hearing about.
Do you think I should have thrown the old semi auto open bolt and trigger assembly in the trash?
Think I should have not put the collapsible stock on the pre-ban AR?
The pulled me over because my "License plate was not illuminated" - my fault for not checking my bulbs, right?
Think I was asking for it? My fault?
Hindsight 20/20