What if I use an NFA weapon for self defense?

[srs]

I just submitted Form 1's for a SBR and Silencer in 300 AAC Blackout that I will be building as a house gun, and a few questions popped into my head.
I will be asking all of these questions to my lawyer shortly, but thought I would ask here as well.

Assumptions:
1. The NFA items are legally built and owned.
2. Subsonic, frangible rounds to limit penetration thru walls. Walls are primarily 100 year old lathe/plaster.
3. I recognized an immediate threat to my, or my family's life.
4. The intruder is no longer a threat and there is no immediate need for emergency medical personnel.
5. A 911 call was made immediately before, or immediately after the incident - depending on circumstances.

Questions:
1. If I were to use NFA items for self defense and the investigators want to take it/them for evidence; is it considered a transfer and if so, how does the transfer legally take place?
2. Can I refuse to allow them to take the NFA items, citing NFA rules and regulations? Which ones do I cite?
3. Assuming the suppressor is attached during the incident, would it be unwise to remove it prior to allowing the investigators access to the rifle? This would be in the hope that they only take the SBR into evidence, not both.
4. To control access, should I lock the SBR/Silencer in a safe prior to LEO arrival?

I hope that I never am put in this position, but I would like to be prepared for the immediate aftermath if it happens. My current house gun is a FNX-45, but it is terribly loud indoors and threaded barrels seem to be made of unobtainium.

Thanks in advance,
Steve

[LostintheAOs]

1. No idea on that one.
2. Probably can't refuse, seeing as how that would be withholding evidence
3. I would leave it exactly how it was during the invasion, changing that could probably be construed as destruction of evidence
4. may also be construed as withholding evidence if you refuse to allow them access to it.

I would say your best bet is to talk to your lawyer as you mentioned doing. I'll assume the lawyer is familiar with firearm laws.

[BCJ]

In the highly unlikely event you have to use your weapon to protect your family the last thing on your mind will be what happens to your weapon. You might be overthinking it.

NFA weapon or title 1 - They would hold the weapon as evidence until you were charged or no-billed depending on the circumstances. If no-billed you would get it back; if charged it would stay as evidence until everything was finished.

I actually had a suppressed pistol in my truck when another car hit me and put me in the hospital. I couldn't take it in the ambulance and the cops weren't going to leave it in a truck being towed away. It all worked out without any head ache

[Patriot]

BCJ is correct.

Been there,

The last thing on your mind will be the value or use of your gun. It did its job, it saved your life, it served its purpose. They could ask to melt it down, and you'd likely say, "sure, whatever". When those feelings subside over the course of several weeks or months, you'll find that winning a gunfight has so badly damaged your life, that, while you'd like your gun back, it's really the least of your problems.

Don't do any of those things to avoid temporary confiscation. Instead, plan ahead for how you and your family will stay mentally and physically healthy when the whole world wants to crucify you for shooting that poor innocent victim who just happened to be in your home with a baseball bat in a ski mask at 3am. They will set up web pages and hold rallies, seeking "justice" for the poor guy you "murdered". That version of events will sell a lot more newspapers than the truth, so guess what your local newspaper will print? You will be the object of slander and gossip on a level that you can't imagine. It will affect your social, economic, and family life. You will wonder many times, if winning the fight was worth it.

LONG before you put the pieces back together, you'll get a call to come pick up the gun that you'd long forgotten about.

Read On Combat and On Killing written by Dave Grossman and the Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. Do it now, not after.

[mbogo]

It makes no difference in Nevada. If the NFA item is legally owned, it is legal. Period.

As for a suppressor, it would be immaterial if it was legally possessed

mbogo

[PBinWA]

I've always been curious if/how a forensic specialist could determine that a silencer was used. Obviously, in some form of close range execution style shooting the powder blast pattern may be different. However in a bedroom self defense scenario what would be the determining factors that indicate a silencer was attached to the weapon? If the shooter had a thread protector that was previously used while shooting so it was dirty and merely threaded it on before the police were onsite would anyone be able to tell?

Just curious more than anything else hoping to never be in the situation to have to consider this.

[doubloon]

On a semi-automatic weapon the cases are more blackened from gas blow back than when a suppressor is not used.

[PBinWA]

On a semi-automatic weapon the cases are more blackened from gas blow back than when a suppressor is not used.

Makes sense - thanks.

[O2HeN2]

So there's an interesting question raised here.

Since distance of engagement is commonly determined by powder stippling evdence, I wonder how a supressor would jack up the results if you were NOT to tell anyone you used one.

I assume (dangerous word, I know) that a supressor would drastically reduce stippling residue. So if you were to engage someone at 1 yard, it SHOULD leave (for example) a small, intense area of stippling. But if a supressor was used there would hardly be any. Making it appear as if the engagement distance was much, much more.

Meaning you could really screw yoiurself over if you were to hide the fact that you used a supressor.

This is all guesses, anyone have any real information in this area?

Though I think the bottom line still is: Don't supress evidence.

O2

[doubloon]

So there's an interesting question raised here.
...

Yeah, gunshot residue as evidence seems to be hyped up on TV quite a bit but I don't know how frequent it really gets used in real life courts.

[a_canadian]

Related to that last... check out NFA Review Channel's video using a zip tie around his wrist holding the ziploc bag shut:

https://youtu.be/4euC3f4Gb_A

Kinda cool. Shots at around 1:45. Of course this is assassination type stuff, not home defence. Brass retention 100%, heck, even smoke retention... for those times when you don't want anyone getting grossed out by the smell of rimfire primers.

[doubloon]

Related to that last... check out NFA Review Channel's video using a zip tie around his wrist holding the ziploc bag shut:
...

I was going to make them dig for it.

[Patriot]

Powder burns, gunshot residue, and forensic evidence in general is WAY overhyped on TV. Even fresh fingerprints on smooth surfaces (like a high gloss scope) are rarely recoverable.

[crazyelece]

Questions:
1. If I were to use NFA items for self defense and the investigators want to take it/them for evidence; is it considered a transfer and if so, how does the transfer legally take place?
2. Can I refuse to allow them to take the NFA items, citing NFA rules and regulations? Which ones do I cite?
3. Assuming the suppressor is attached during the incident, would it be unwise to remove it prior to allowing the investigators access to the rifle? This would be in the hope that they only take the SBR into evidence, not both.
4. To control access, should I lock the SBR/Silencer in a safe prior to LEO arrival?

1. They take it like anything else. It gets logged as evidence or inventory and gets placed in secure storage.

2. You can try, but it won't do you any good and will probably do more to hurt your case of self defense.

3. Yes, it would be unwise to remove a silencer. If they want to take the weapon, they will want the entire weapon. Any changes you make to the weapon will only hurt your claim of self defense and cause them to look further to see what else you are hiding. For example - victim seems to be hiding the fact that a silencer was used, maybe the "bad guy" was lured here. Or maybe the "bad guy" was here to sell drugs and the deal went south.

4. No, again it would look more like an attempt to hide evidence than anything else.


In a lawful use of lethal force for self defense, you likely will not be in any reasonable state of mind. The only thing I would do to the weapon (and that is if you even have any wits left), is to remove the mag, clear the chamber, lock the action open, and set the weapon down. The only thing you should say to LE is "I was in fear for my life" and "I need to call my lawyer"

[Patriot]

Do NOT clear the weapon!!! The condition of the weapon is part of the evidence of what happened. For instance, in my situation, I could have rendered the deceased bad guy's weapon safe, but because I didn't, investigators cleared it and found a spent cartridge in the chamber (evidence that he fired his weapon). Had I cleared his weapon, there would be less evidence that he tried to murder someone before I returned fire. For similar reasons, do NOT clear your weapon.

I agree with the above advice about what to say to investigators (if true).

[crazyelece]

I would never clear the other weapon (if it was even a firearm), but when LEO hit the scene they don't know who the bad guy is.

All they likely know is there is a threat and they need to intervene.

If I had any mental capacity after such an incident, I would do everything in my power to not look like a threat when LE shows up.

Meaning I don't want to be holding a loaded firearm over a dead body.

[Patriot]

Don't be holding ANY weapon if the suspect is deceased. Set your loaded weapon down when cops arrive. Problem solved. If the suspect is still alive and possibly a threat, stay armed and communicate as well as possible with dispatch before cops arrive. The be ready to follow their commands about what to do with your gun.

There is no scenario where clearing your gun and then holding it (unloaded) when the cops arrive makes any sense.

[srs]

Holy thread resurrection Batman! This was 2 years ago.

Great comments everyone, thank you.

[poikilotrm]

Gary Fadden says don't use NFA. Legality ain't a part of it.

Situation: A road-rage incident escalates into a deadly pursuit.

Lesson: Keep communications as handy as your gun. Bad guys fear resolutely armed people, not weapons. Remember that full auto can stop a fight--but start an indictment.

It's amazing how often a criminal will say something unbelievably stupid just before he forces a decent citizen to kill him. For many years I've been piecing together a book subtitled "Famous Last Words of Scumbags." The working title will come from the most memorable such incident: "F*** You and Your Automatic Rifle!"

The shooter was Gary Fadden. The incident took place some 20 years ago. Only now is Gary comfortable speaking of it, in hopes that others may learn from lessons that cost him very deeply.

The Incident

Sunday, February 24, 1984, approximately 2 PM. Gary Fadden, 26, and his lovely 22 year old fiancee are driving from a birthday party in Martinsburg, WV, into Virginia to look at some property for what they hope will be their starter home after their marriage. It's a bitterly cold day, and with the winter coats in the back of a new '84 Ford F-250 supercab 4WD diesel pickup, the Pendleton-clad Fadden looks from a distance like a harmless Yuppie. That means he and the pretty brunette look like prey to another kind of person.

Heading east on Rt. 50, they are passed by a Harley-Davidson motorcycle with two people astride, the operator cutting in front of him so sharply that he has to brake suddenly. Gary comments to his fiancee how cold they must be riding a bike on a low 30s day, and that driving as carelessly as he is, the cyclist needs to worry about sudden patches of ice.

A few minutes later, he spots a Chevy pickup in his rearview mirrors. It contains three people. One passenger is gesturing to him to pull over. Gary doesn't know what these scruffy guys want and he ignores them. But then he sees the passenger waving a knife, and the driver bringing up a revolver.

Gary says to his fiancee, in what will probably be the understatement of his life, "We've got a bit of a problem here."

Pursuit

It is 1984, long before the universal coming of cell phones, and there is no other communications in the vehicle. They are entering Middleburg, a town of perhaps 800, and stop at a red light. Behind them, Gary can see both males exit their truck and run toward him. The driver's hand is actually on Gary's door handle when he pops the clutch and sends his new truck screeching through the intersection against the light. The two men run back to their older pickup, and the chase is on.

They're almost on his bumper. Gary accelerates, hitting open road now, zig-zagging between reaching 95 miles an hour when the speed governor cuts in. Not only are the pursuers keeping pace but he sees the driver aiming a revolver at him out his window. Honking his horn and flashing his lights when he runs into a cluster of automobiles, passing them sometimes on the shoulder of the road and spraying rooster-tails of gravel, Gary still cannot elude the truck behind him.

Gary is desperately looking for a police car he can flag down. He doesn't see one. The chase has gone for 22 miles now and they're getting into a more compact area again. Coming up is an intersection tic knows well: he goes through it every day on his way to work. Even on Sunday it will be clogged. He forms a plan quickly: if the light is in his favor, he'll go through it and keep going, hoping to find police in a more populated area. If the light is against him, he'll turn right, and make for the plant where he works on Chantilly Road.

The light stays red. Gary cuts hard right, heading for what he hopes will be the sanctuary of the workplace. Behind him, he can see that the pursuers haven't given up an inch. "I've got my pass card through the gates and the front door," he tells his fiancee urgently. "We'll get into the building and we can hide. They can't find us. We'll call the cops from there."

He pulls into the front area of the plant, the automatic mechanism taking an achingly long time to raise the gate. As the gate opens, the pursuing truck comes to a stop behind his, both men jumping out and running to Gary's Ford, their hands clawing at his door handles. He guns the engine and gels away from them, sweeping up to the front door and locking up the brakes in a skid.

The plant is Heckler and Koch.

Gary Fadden is a salesman for HK, and among the rest of their firearms, he sells machine guns. In the truck with him is a competitor's weapon he has acquired to test, a Ruger AC556, the selective-fire assault version of the .223 Mini-14. He grabs it now as he throws open the truck door, hoping to hold them off at gunpoint. lie knows his fiancee can't make it to the building's door now, and he screams to her to get down on the floor of the Ford.

The Shooting

The passenger is running toward him, an average size man in ratty clothes with stringy hair, a long beard, and an expression of absolute rage.

The selector switch and manual safety of the AC556 are in two different locations. Gary has not yet fired this weapon and, though he has taken off the safety, he doesn't know whether the switch is set for semi, three-shot burst, or full auto. He yells "Stop or I'll shoot," points the muzzle upward, and pulls the trigger for a warning shot.

The weapon is set on full automatic. Everything is going into deep slow motion, and Gary is aware that the Ruger spits a burst of nine shots before he can get his finger back off the trigger.

There is no effect whatsoever. The attacker is still running at him, perhaps ten yards away and closing fast, reaching for knives at his belt with each hand. The assailant screams, "F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

And Gary Fadden has run out of time. He lowers the Ruger, points it at the charging knifer, and pulls the trigger one more time. in the ethereal slow motion of profound tachypsychia, Gary can see the spent .223 shells arcing lazily out of the mechanism. He stops the burst, aware that six shots have been fired, as the man in front of him falls heavily to the ground.

Gary moves quickly, putting a big brick planter between himself and the onrushing pickup as cover. The truck stops and the driver, the larger of the two bearded men, shrieks. "F*** you! You killed one of the brothers! You shot him, you motherf***er!" Gary's weapon is level and ready, but this time instead of waving the revolver, the man looks as if he's trying to hide it in the cab of his truck. Gary can see now that the third person in the truck, the one who has always stayed in the cab, is a woman.

And then, the police are there. "They've got guns," Gary shouts to the officers disgorging from two patrol cars. He sets his rifle down and steps back as the officers swarm the pickup truck, taking the surviving man and woman into custody. In a moment, a cop is standing with Gary. "I did it," Gary says. The cop answers, "Did what?" "I shot that man." The officer picks up the AC556. "It's loaded," Gary warns, "Do you want me to unload it'?" The policeman answers. "No, I'll do it. Why don't you sit down?"

Gary Fadden sits on the curb. For a moment, it seems as if the whole bizarre nightmare is over. Unfortunately, it has only begun.



Aftermath

The man he had shot. Billy "Too Loose" Hamilton, was dead. He had been hit by all six rounds of Winchester 55 grain FMJ, headstamped "'WCC81." One bullet had struck behind the lateral midline in the instant that he turned away from the gunfire, taking out a chunk of his spine as is skidded across his back from side to side. This would be interpreted later by the prosecutor as having been "shot in the back."

The partner, who went by the name of "Papa Zoot," had gotten his weapons out of his hands by the time police arrived. In the front of the five-year-old Chevy pickup that had chased Fadden for more than 20 miles, police found a .22 auto pistol and a four-inch Smith & Wesson L-frame .357 Magnum. The revolver had three live and three empty cartridges in the cylinder. More fired brass was on the floor, and a plastic bag with more live amino was open on the seat. Though Fadden heard no shots and no bullets hit his truck, he was convinced then and now that they were shooting at him during the chase.

Hamilton's two knives, a Schrade folding hunter and a nondescript fixed blade, were found with his corpse.

Gary Fadden was arrested that night and charged with 1st degree murder. His family raised $60,000 bail. He hired DC attorney Gerry Treanor to defend him. Treanor, at Gary's request, retained John Farnam and I as expert witnesses. Today, Gary remembers, "Two prosecutors wouldn't touch it until the third took it. It was all political because of the automatic weapon."

The weeklong trial took place in October of 1984. Word had reached Gary that Papa Zoot had bought a .30/06 rifle and sworn a "blood oath" to kill him. I was driving toward Fairfax County when I got the message from Gary's lawyer that John and I wouldn't be needed because the prosecution had self-destructed.

On the stand, Papa Zoot and the woman had testified that Gary had tried to run their biker brother off the road, and they had just followed 22 miles to get his license tag. Defense lawyer Treanor took them apart on cross-examination. An undercover detective broke his cover to testify that the deceased and Papa Zoot "put a bomb in my car. They like to rough people up." The prosecutor made such a show of waving the machine gun that the judge made a point of instructing the jury that the death weapon had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the shooting was self-defense. The jury learned that Gary purchased the AC-556 personally and that it was perfectly legal to possess the weapon.

By the start of trial, the charge had been dropped to second-degree murder, and as the trial collapsed around the prosecutor's ears, he offered a plea to manslaughter, which Gary flatly rejected. At the end, when it was announced that the jury had found Gary Fadden Not Guilty on all counts, Fadden recalls that the self-same prosecutor snapped--in open court, in front of Gary's mother--"'You've let a murderer loose!"

"'H&K protected me," says Gary. "They picked up the tab for about half of my legal bills, and got all the publicity for it, until I quit a few years later. Florian Deltgen (at that time CEO at HK) told me after an argument with the vice president that one or the other of us probably had to go, and the vice president wasn't going anywhere. I accepted a job offer from Beretta USA and then resigned from H&K. Deltgen stuck me with the remaining bill, which I paid off at 10% interest." The bill had amounted to more than $45,000. Gary was 34 years old before he had paid everything back.

Dr. Deltgen is no longer with Heckler and Koch.



Lessons

Have communication. In 1984, only the rich had phones in their cars. Today, Gary Fadden is never without a charged-up cell phone. He knows that if he'd had one that day he could have called the police, who would have been able to interdict his pursuers before the thing became a killing situation.

Flight can trigger pursuit. Prey that flees inflames the pursuit instinct of predators. This is why we teach our children never to run from snarling dogs. Gary Fadden did what society told him to do when facing criminals: he ran. They chased. By the time they caught up with him, Billy Hamilton was in such a rage to kill that he could not be deterred.

Understand how deterrence really works. Papa Zoot and Too Loose had guns and amino and knives in their truck with them. In Gary's truck were a Remington Nylon 66.22 rifle (for plinking, and never touched during the incident), a 9mm HK VP70Z pistol, and the AC556 with enough amino for perhaps tour full magazines. None were loaded at the start. The pistol was loaded and placed in the console during the chase, and the rifle was at that point loaded and placed conspicuously on the dashboard by Gary in hopes that it would deter file pursuit. It did not.

When Gary Fadden stepped out of his new Ford at the climax of the chase, most of us would have seen him as an intimidating presence. The man stands six feet eight and weighed 260 pounds at the time, and he was holding a machine gun. His pursuers were unimpressed.

Later identified as belonging to one of the "big four" outlaw motorcycle clubs, Too Loose and Papa Zoot were members of an armed subculture themselves. They did not fear guns. Zoot was about 6'4" and 240 himself, and neither man feared big guys dressed like something off the cover of an L.L. Bean catalog. It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them.

22 miles of running away from them had left these wolves convinced that they were dealing with a large sheep, not the sharp-fanged sheepdog Gary Fadden turned out to be. Testimony that "they liked to rough people up" shows that they had a lot of ego invested in brutalizing others. Perhaps Hamilton, in his last moment on earth, took Fadden's warning burst as an indication of unwillingness to shoot him. Toxicology screen after death showed Hamilton to have a .19% blood alcohol content. This is a level of intoxication consistent with inhibitions being at their lowest. Gary Fadden sums it up today, "The mouse had run, and the cat was loose. Physical size was no deterrent. The gun was no deterrent with these people. If you pull a gun, you'd better be ready to use it."

Politically incorrect "assault weapons" make politically incorrect defendants. Though he didn't say it in so many words, prosecutor Jack Robbins' case against Fadden seemed to be, "I say, Muffy, people of breeding simply don't shoot criminals with machine guns in Fairfax County! Now, had he used a civilized weapon like a Browning Superposed ... and preferably shot him on the rise ... "

You and I know that Class III holders are the ultimate "card carrying good guys and gals." That particular card says they have been investigated for six months by the Federal government and been found trustworthy to possess machine guns. Unfortunately, most of the public in the jury pool, and most politically motivated prosecutors, don't know that. Every self-defense shooting I've run across with a Class III weapon, however justified, has at the very least ended with the shooter facing a grand jury. Asked what he thinks would have happened if he'd shot Hamilton with a Remington 870 Wingmaster instead, Fadden replies with certainty, "I would have gone home that night. I've told dozens of people since, 'Do not use a Class III weapon for personal defense."' Today, the guns Gary is likely to have in his car have neutral images: an M-1 .30 carbine, and a 10mm Glock 20 pistol.

Be there for your friends.

It was stunning how many people he had trusted shunned Gary after the shooting, and particularly, after his indictment. He cherishes those who stood beside him through the ordeal, particularly Jim Stone and Rick DeMilt and, most particularly, knife-maker Al Mar.

Much later, after his AC556 had been returned to him by the courts, Gary gave that gun to Al Mar, another man who appreciated a fine weapon of any kind. On its stock was a brass plate engraved "To Al Mar, Because You Understand."

Gary says, "For twenty years now, I've cherished every morning I've gotten up, because I earned every moment of my life. I fought for it."

After Al Mar's death, Gary Fadden scraped up the money to buy his knife business, and he is CEO of Al Mar Knives to this day. One good man carrying on the work of another. It seems fitting.

[YugoRPK]

"F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

Sorry, I'm going to call BS on that quote.

[poikilotrm]

"F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

Sorry, I'm going to call BS on that quote.

Never dealt with that sort, eh? It was testified to by multiple witnesses.

[YugoRPK]

"F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!"

Sorry, I'm going to call BS on that quote.

Never dealt with that sort, eh? It was testified to by multiple witnesses.

Too much like the banana in the tailpipe thing. No self respecting outlaw biker would say something that gay even drunk. If I remember right about that case the defendant barely scraped by as there was a lot of inconsistency in the witness testimony. The prosecutor essentially blew the case. Dude walked but it wasnt nearly as cut and dry as Ayoob made it out to be.

[Patriot]

Inconsistent witness testimony is a GOOD thing. Read On Combat by Dave Grossman. If the witnesses all agree, someone is making s--t up. Our physical perspective differences are greatly exaggerated under the toxic stress environment of a gunfight.

The last words of a gentleman from my area were, "Put that piece of s--t away!" in reference to the short barreled M4 that would kill him moments later. He was drunk, and belligerent, much like the suspect at the H&K plant.

Given the similarity of intoxication and foolish confidence about being aggressive toward conspicuously armed men, I'm not surprised their final words were so similar.

[rubiconag]

Well given this is a Silencer based forum I'll bring the topic back to silencers for self defense. While the story above is an interesting read, it is somewhat salacious and not representative of the original question or a "typical" self defense situation.....here is my take, by no means am I a lawyer or LEO or judge.....

I keep a 45 with an Octane 45 HD attached in my FAS1 bedside safe, along with a copy of the tax stamp. I do this for the simple reason if I do have to discharge my weapon, in my household, in the off chance everyone is asleep, I don't want to destroy everyone's hearing in the process. I have two young kids in the house and wife that sleeps next to me. I legally own my guns, am CHL licensed and am in my own residence. I agree, there would be a headache period of BS after the event. At the end of the day ideally I have protected my family from an intruder and prevented any further damage caused by the concussion of the blast in closed quarters. If you have never shot a handgun in closed quarters, such as a hallway, without hearing protection, it is enough to completely disorient the shooter almost to the point of being incapacitated. Other than that, my subcompact 9 is my daily carry for outside the house situations. I can't imagine a situation where I would be with my suppressors/sbr and discharge a weapon in self defense with them. Off chance it is to or from a shooting range or the ranch hunting would be extraordinary.

FYI - I also have a defense lawyer that I know very well and have his contact in my phone as my go-to contact if/when an event happens. I would suggest everyone that anticipates a self defense situation have a executable plan ready for when an event happens including a lawyer contact that you have already vetted.

[YugoRPK]

Having fired a gun inside a room on several times sans hearing protection of any sort ...Its not that bad.