problem: SOT license renewed while FFL 01 renewal has expired

[tripntx]

I have two suppressors with approved form 4's (Nov 15) which are sitting at my dealer, but he says he can't give them to me because his FFL renewal hasn't been processed yet by ATF (his SOT was processed and renewed in June). Here's the email he sent me: "ATF is messing around with me in that my SOT was renewed in July for the 2015 year but my FFL renewal has not been completed yet. It expired on Nov 01 and has not been renewed yet!!! So on one hand the SOT to deal in destructive devices (Suppressors , SBR and such) is current but FFL is not. I have been researching to see if I can actually complete your transfer and I find that I probably cannot complete the transfer until the FFL is finally approved."

Any advice?

[O2HeN2]

I'm interested in how others more knowledgeable than I will answer this, but seeing that you can do a form 4 transfer from a non-FFL (I have in fact done this for an in-state sale of an NFA item). I can't see how the current state of his FFL even enters into the equation.

You are now the only legal entity that can possess the item, it should be transferred to you ASAP.

Of course I have no idea how all the rules and regulations that surround an FFL may come into play, perhaps there is something in there that will prohibit it from coming off his books until the FFL is renewed, I don't know...

O2

Ps. This is of course only based on federal laws. In terms of state laws, YMMV.

[66427vette]

"You are now the only legal entity that can possess the item, it should be transferred to you ASAP."


False. That can belongs to the dealer until the 4473 is done. Seems like he might be blowing a little smoke your way. Bet he forgot to renew.

[mk23]

Bet he forgot to renew.

Not necessarily.

A local FFL that happen to renew/move at the same time has his renewal dragged out 2 months over exp date of FFL.

[66427vette]

I got my renewal forms 4 months early. Just saying. They can issue a carryover letter in meantime.

[tripntx]

Gentlemen, thanks for the information.

Both cans were form 4 to my Trust. Form 4's were mailed June 2014. His SOT was renewed in June/July timeframe, not sure which month. Both F4's were approved Nov 15, he received the stamps first week in Dec. His FFL expired Oct 31, 2014. I checked his FFL number online today, and it hasn't be renewed yet in the system. Adding to the renewal is the fact he did an address change and moved 30 miles from one town to another. Not sure how the move affected renewal time. He still owns the previous residence, but is making it ready to lease.

I called the ATF hotline for checking serial number status at 304-616-4500, gave them s/n xxxxxxx for one of the suppressors, once they pulled it up and verified who I was, who the dealer was; I then told them about the current issue. At first the man on the phone said: "He gave that reason as to why he couldn't transfer the suppressors to you?", I said yes; he said something along the lines of just fill out a 4473 and take possession, then he said "hold for a moment while I check on this". I was placed on hold for a few minutes, when the man came back on phone, he told me it doesn't affect this transfer because the stamp is the actual approval. He said the 4473 is only filled out and filed, that the current status of his 01 FFL isn't a big deal since he does have a renewed SOT.

Information was given to SOT, along with my asking him to:
Call ATF himself to see if they tell him the same thing they told me;
Check his mail to see if he has received a "carryover letter" to allow him to continue dealing in Title 1 & 2 firearms;
And asked him to call the ATF to get a "carryover letter" if he hasn't received one.

Oh well, at least the forms have been approved and I'll eventually get to pick up my toys, but it might not be until next month....

[Bendersquint]

The dealer is blowing smoke, I am going to say he forgot to renew his license.

He can also complete the transfer without an FFL, its actually done all the time for shops closing up shop.

[tripntx]

The dealer is blowing smoke, I am going to say he forgot to renew his license.

He can also complete the transfer without an FFL, its actually done all the time for shops closing up shop.

Matt, the worse part is:
These two suppressors were purchased in Nov 2012 when I participated in a Group Buy on another forum. I purchased them from Wells Custom Suppressors in PA. I was repeatedly told by Wells that the Form 3 had been submitted, but they didn't show up at local dealer until Sep 2013. This local dealer signed up with Eforms, and entered them into EForms just before the govt shutdown in Sep 2013.
Well, when I called ATF in May 2014 to check status is when I found out they weren't in the system. Called dealer and met him a couple weeks later in June 2014 to submit paper F4's.

These two suppressors were purchased and paid for 25 months ago in Nov 2012. Tax money was given to dealer in Sep 2013. Stamps were approved Nov 15, 2014, yet here it is the end of December and I still can't take possession of them....
Needless to say, I now track what is going on with my NFA purchases these days much closer (which is why I sent you the email about my check last week).

To everybody else, I have purchased three suppressors from Silencer Shop in Austin over the course of the last 15 months. All three have processed without a single issue. I'll only deal in NFA with known business's who have great customer service such as Silencer Shop and Stalking Rhino Ind...

[Tony M.]

Agree, the dealer is blowing smoke. Also, moving location requires a new FFL issued, not a renewal.

[whiterussian1974]

BTW, the dealer who I'm dealing with is also a Houston a PD officer. I still don't have my cans, even though the Form 4's were approved Nov 15th, 2014 because the officer allowed his FFL01 to expire Oct 30, 2014 and hasn't received his renewal yet.
ATF says he can give me my cans because his FFL07 is good, but he says no.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=132004

I wish that I could refer you to a lawyer that was knowledgable about these issues. Maybe "Armorer at Law." He's a member on this Forum.
I really don't know enough about NFA Laws to assist you.
But sounds like a Tort issue.
Sadly, when people run businesses for a little extra cash; they often devote most of their time to their primary job.
I've gotten screwed over by Unions and Lawyers so often in the past that I try to represent myself whenever possible. Sadly, there are precious few honest people in Service Businesses anymore.
We're just another # on their balance sheet. And they just want to make easy money.