What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

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MattMan
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What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by MattMan »

My five year plan is to retire and buy a sailboat and sail for port to port in Florida as well anywhere the wind takes us. I own a couple of machine guns and silencers. It just dawned on me, how would I keep up with regulations if I moved from port to port. It goes without saying while in possession of the NFA items I would be keeping within states that allow such. Our plan is to live on the boat with no permanent port of residence, and no land owned residence. If we get the hankering to sail to a new port of call then we do it. Anyone had such a situation be it on land or sea? Of course I could rent a safety deposit box for situations I would be out of bounds but how do you even go about that with registering keeping your items in a bank safety deposit box with no permanent land residence?
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by Artful »

Are you keeping the location where the NFA items are registered now? or are you divesting yourself of it as well? I asked a similar question years ago and as I was keeping my residence I was advised to annually file a 5320.20 for the farthest state/destination I thought I would be taking the motor home too. And that would cover any states I had to travel thru on the way there.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by Bendersquint »

MattMan wrote:My five year plan is to retire and buy a sailboat and sail for port to port in Florida as well anywhere the wind takes us. I own a couple of machine guns and silencers. It just dawned on me, how would I keep up with regulations if I moved from port to port. It goes without saying while in possession of the NFA items I would be keeping within states that allow such. Our plan is to live on the boat with no permanent port of residence, and no land owned residence. If we get the hankering to sail to a new port of call then we do it. Anyone had such a situation be it on land or sea? Of course I could rent a safety deposit box for situations I would be out of bounds but how do you even go about that with registering keeping your items in a bank safety deposit box with no permanent land residence?
Plain and simple the lifestyle at sea you describe is not conducive to owning NFA.
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MattMan
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?v

Post by MattMan »

I wouldn't be keeping machine guns while on the boat for theft, legality, and convenience of life style reasons, my other collection of non class 3 (besides a couple of personal protection guns) I would keep with trusted relatives (brother or daughter). I would have to have a registered address somewhere, that would be the same as my license as well as voter registration and keep said items (at least the registered receivers) secure in a safety deposit box in that town. How do people that live in a motor home and travel,register to vote, or put an address on a drivers license? While not ideal, at least I do have time to figure out, probably with the help of an attorney the best way to go about this, they are registered under a trust which probably give me a little more leeway.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by srs »

I don't know about other places, but in Virginia you cannot have a loaded rifle or pistol when on VA waterways. There may be one or two minor exceptions to this, but it is generally true.

State laws are really going to be a problem.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by L1A1Rocker »

srs wrote:I don't know about other places, but in Virginia you cannot have a loaded rifle or pistol when on VA waterways. There may be one or two minor exceptions to this, but it is generally true.

State laws are really going to be a problem.
That's interesting. If your home is on the water then those laws are in direct conflict with Heller.

Plus, if you are passing through those waters going from one legal place to another legal place, they would also appear to be in conflict with the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by chrismartin »

srs wrote:I don't know about other places, but in Virginia you cannot have a loaded rifle or pistol when on VA waterways. There may be one or two minor exceptions to this, but it is generally true.

State laws are really going to be a problem.
I'm not seeing any law preventing carrying in VA waterways. There is a regulation regarding waterfowl HUNTING and carrying a loaded pistol, however, that only covers hunting waterfowl, no other time.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by Slow Hand »

I'm definitely not an expert, but I would think that a trust with someone else having a more 'standard' address would be an easy way to do it. A trusted friend or relative could be a trustee and thus could have their address as the trusts address and then both of you could legally posess the class III items. If I'm wrong in my thinking, please correct me.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by raymond- »

mmm, doesn't work that way. you opine that if it isn't legal to own Title 2 by an individual or in a certain location, one could use a trust as a cloaking device to circumvent the legally prohibited provisions of the law. you have a skewed way of viewing law vs trust
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by Slow Hand »

raymond- wrote:mmm, doesn't work that way. you opine that if it isn't legal to own Title 2 by an individual or in a certain location, one could use a trust as a cloaking device to circumvent the legally prohibited provisions of the law. you have a skewed way of viewing law vs trust
Not at all how I meant it. I just thought that having co-ownership with someone who has a more standard address would make it easier.

On your point, though, I thought I had read of folks owning say a suppressor that was kept in a state where it was legal, even though the owner resided in a state where it wasn't. Like if the owner was close to the border and shot in the legal state, he could own it and keep it in a safe deposit box or something similar. My memory could be off on that one though.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by raymond- »

oh, i think i get where you're coming from. thanks. I may have read too much into it using my dialect. :) r-
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by 1911rocks »

Ok, this is how we did it. First, we retained a house and that was the address on the transfers. I have a trust with all of my Children listed. We started out slipping our boat in St. Augustine (pricey) then we moved to a new FOB in Punta Gorda. Even more pricey, then Key Weird. The problem with Florida is anchorage. You can't just drop the hook in the ICW. Each locale has anchorage rules, with Dade and Broward being like Kalifornia. The problem I had was security and corrosion. My M-11 looks, well, textured :(. The Suppressor fared better. I only had a 42' Hans Christian and as you probably know, living on a boat is like backpacking, it's a minimalist lifestyle. We did it for 6yrs. The real problem arose if you decide to leave FL and sail to some other State. The major "speed bump" was if USCG decided to board. At the dock in FL, if you have a permanent land address, even a "dropbox" (ours was in Green Cove Springs), your boat is not considered a "domicile" it's considered a conveyance, like a car. The USCG/LEO, etc do not need a warrant to come aboard (USCG is not a LEA, they play by different rules). Then another aspect was when we decided to expand our horizons. When we decided to do the crossing to the Bahamas the guns had to find a new home. Which meant a trip to the North. The Gun stores we encountered did not like the idea of "babysitting". We did use a Safe Deposit box once. That was a high pucker factor. But, essentially, there was a drive or shipping back to the Great White North. My Son has an 07 and that made life a little more convenient, but, still it took planning and time. Meanwhile wind and sea condition would change so we'd have time to do "bright work". It was enjoyable though we sailed to Bonaire, Tobago, Turks and Caicos, Cartegena, did the ditch, up to San Francisco. It was either boring beyond belief or terrifying based on sea state. I'm back on shore now and happy that I sailed, but, it was a phase. OBTW, I was lucky, my Wife is a great helms person and doesn't mind going "up in the chair" even if it's a little....rolling. What type of Boat are you planning on?
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by ick »

It seems you are NOT speaking about inland waterways, i. e. fresh water. More coastal salt water. Additionally sounds like you are going to possibly travel to international waters, other countries (Jamaica), etc.

As such, there is a whole can of whoop-ass from crazy maritime laws that are pretty wicked and draconian. In order to adequately answer your question you would need a law specialist. I am guessing that "specialist" is not ALSO going to understand how NFA works.... so he/she has some homework to do even if he is well versed in maritime law.

Laws are very different 100 miles out from the coast as opposed to, say mile out or being docked. Heck, I don't even know the distance where "state law" applies vs. international... to say nothing of where the lines are for federal laws and regs start or stop. How about when the application of "customs laws" become relevant?

Seems like a good way to inadvertently become a test case for the application of law and NFA "defenses". THAT sounds expensive in terms of cash, disruption, and possible jail time.

Add to that interactions with coast guard, state LE, and possible accusation of trying to "import" an item. Just try and fly out of the country with your NFA item... and then try and fly back to CONUS with your NFA item. Declared the NFA item on a US Citizen customs form and see how the staff at the airport customs office react.

Imagine if the Coast Guard stops your boat and they "think" you might have been to Cuba with your boat. How inconvenient would that NFA item be and would it complicate the situation?

No thanks for me. I think I will let someone else be the test case.

You need to get legal advice here. I am not an attorney.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by raymond- »

+1 to ick's comments and bears strong consideration
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by Flat Tire »

srs wrote:I don't know about other places, but in Virginia you cannot have a loaded rifle or pistol when on VA waterways. There may be one or two minor exceptions to this, but it is generally true.

State laws are really going to be a problem.
What is the definition of "loaded rifle or pistol" - in chamber, in magazine, magazine in firearm ?
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by renegade »

L1A1Rocker wrote: Plus, if you are passing through those waters going from one legal place to another legal place, they would also appear to be in conflict with the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986.
FOPA86 only provides protection if the gun is unloaded.

OP scenario is basically no different than a guy living in an RV.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by ick »

renegade wrote:
L1A1Rocker wrote: Plus, if you are passing through those waters going from one legal place to another legal place, they would also appear to be in conflict with the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986.
FOPA86 only provides protection if the gun is unloaded.

OP scenario is basically no different than a guy living in an RV.

Looks to me like he is saying he is potentially going to be in international waters OR it could appear as though he is coming from international waters. If that is true then it is not the same thing as an RV.
MattMan wrote:....buy a sailboat and sail for port to port in Florida as well anywhere the wind takes us..... be it on land or sea?
Can you re-focus your description MattMan? I know if I had the same retirement plan I would be asking the exact same questions.
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Re: What about living on a sailboat with Nfa items?

Post by L1A1Rocker »

renegade wrote:
L1A1Rocker wrote: Plus, if you are passing through those waters going from one legal place to another legal place, they would also appear to be in conflict with the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986.
FOPA86 only provides protection if the gun is unloaded.

OP scenario is basically no different than a guy living in an RV.

But that would still fly in the face of Heller, which found that you CAN keep a loaded, accessible firearm in places "such as within the home".
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