SBR Build and barrel questions

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Sabre170
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SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by Sabre170 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:56 pm

Pardon my ignorance here, but looking for some clarification.

I currently own a few different suppressors and they were purchased via a trust. I'm now interested in building my own SBR.

I'm wanting to make it an AR style SBR. My question is two fold:

1). Can I just buy a lower, barrel, all the other parts, and then submit my stamp paperwork on my own (not via a FFL), and leave the weapon all in parts until stamp approval. Once approved, then build the SBR? If not, how is easiest/best to get a stamp for a weapon I am putting together?

2). When I submit my SBR paperwork, It will be attached to the SN on the lower. Does that paper work also include the caliber I have purchased? Or more importantly, can I swap barrels/uppers later down the road? In other words, let's say my original SBR build is a 5.56 AR, get my stamp, and put it all together. Could I later down the road buy a say 9mm short barrel/upper setup and swap onto my already NFA stamped AR lower????

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by T-Rex » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:07 pm

It is best to wait for your stamp BEFORE purchasing the bbl. Every other part is OK.

Put the same caliber listed on the lower as well as the length of bbl you intend to build. It is OK for you to swap to a different caliber upper with a different bbl length, down the road.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by sucker76 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:13 pm

I built my SBR as a pistol first and efiled the form 1. I started with a stripped lower. I did this to be able to shoot it and have fun while paperwork processed. My lower was stamped 5.56. The ATF "geek squad" told me to put the caliber I was shooting (300blk) on the F1 when I efile and not what was marked. There are great walk-throughs on a couple other forums that hold your hand through the whole process.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by continuity » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:51 am

It's best not to have an item that would make a NFA firearm so, in proximity to a non NFA'ed lower. Have a bud (with NFA stuff) hold the barrel until the stamp comes in.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by BadKarmaZeroSix » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:49 am

Finally, something i can comment on (you guys are way over my head on suppressor manufacturing, machining, and physics)...
There are 2 components that you don't want together before your stamp is approved -- a bbl less than 16" and a stock.
If you find a spectacular deal on a 10" bbl and have to jump on it, just dont buy a stock or have an extra stock available. That would constitute "constructive intent" and is bad mojo.
Otherwise, you could build the full firearm (make an AR pistol with a sub-16" bbl or buy all the parts except the barrel)...i have, so far, done it both ways, but agree with the above-posted suggestion to build a pistol and Form 1 it to produce an SBR...this not only gives you the opportunity to "play" with it, but more impotantly in my personal experience, it lets you troubleshoot it...make sure it functions the way you want it to, chrono some loads if you roll your own, find out what factory ammo it likes, maybe set your adjustable gas block or change your mind on optics/BUIS choices...
Oh, one extra note -- if you build a pistol, also you need to keep any VFGs attached to OTHER weapons for the same reason as stocks...they can be seen as constructive intent to produce an AOW (i believe)...AFGs are ok on pistols tho, per the ATF...
Good luck, and have fun!
Edit: above it had been posted to file your form first, and if you change uppers, its ok...keep in mind, this seems to have a slight caveat -- many have been informed that it must be "transformable back to the approved configuration" unless a variance is requested from the ATF...nothing to really worry about, as variances are easy to do...just letting you know its always better to err on the side of caution with NFA stuff...
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by sucker76 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:43 am

Constructive intent is why I built a pistol with no stock. As soon as the stamp cam in I bought one.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by T-Rex » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:14 am

While I understand the majority of you guys are trying to help someone, be careful in the way you explain or word things, you could be creating a felon.

Having a friend hold your bbl, because you found a good price is a terrible idea. I see this scenario working only if your friend bought it, then sold it to you once your stamp came in. Don't play with the ATFs interpretation of intent. It would be 1000 times better to have it held by an FFL.

Telling someone to build it into a pistol is, again, bad advice, if you don't explain the law. You can ONLY build a pistol if it was transferred as such or was a virgin receiver. A virgin receiver has NEVER been built into anything. I don't mean, hasn't been built into anything "that you know of", but hasn't EVER been assembled into either a pistol or rifle. You can not make a rifle receiver into a pistol. For someone from a state like mine, we can only buy pre '94 receivers. Try finding a pistol or legitimate virgin to build on.

Telling someone with a rifle lower to only buy the bbl and not a stock, while waiting for their stamp, is horrible advice. In this instance, you don't need "constructive intent". You own the rifle, stock or otherwise, and now you own a bbl <16" with no SBR status. The lower doesn't need a stock to constitute a rifle if it was transferred as such.

Again, while you may understand what you're typing, without the whole truth/law, it doesn't mean someone else will.

ETA:
A stripped lower does not always constitute a virgin receiver.
Last edited by T-Rex on Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by sucker76 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:37 am

You're right. I didn't first say I started with a stripped lower that was never a rifle. My apologies for any confusion. I think it is prudent to always to verify suggestions such as these. I'm no lawyer and am not sure who is here. I made sure I stepped carefully researched and followed all laws and learned a lot.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by BadKarmaZeroSix » Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:19 am

I am truly sorry if my advice was given incorrectly...i had read through several threads, and thought that the OP in this instance had stated he bought a new lower for the build, which apparently was something i picked from a dif thread...yes, the build must not be converting a registered rifle to a pistol before SBRing...
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by birdengineer » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:20 pm

OP is asking about building one from scratch. As others here have said, he *can* build a pistol from a new receiver(which has never been a rifle) with a sub-16" bbl and once the form 1 is approved get the stock all while staying legal.

T-rex, I believe you're wrong. A stripped lower is not a rifle, even if it has rifle stamped into it. A stripped lower is *ALWAYS* classified as "other" by the ATF, so it *can* be made into a pistol without breaking any laws.

On that note, an AR pistol that is converted into a rifle can always be converted back to a pistol, unlike a rifle which must always be a rifle (or SBR.) I have all the letters saved on one of my computers pertaining to everything I state here. Unless they have come out with a new ruling on this since early last year then everything I say here is documented from the ATF in plain english.
Sabre170 wrote:Pardon my ignorance here, but looking for some clarification.

I currently own a few different suppressors and they were purchased via a trust. I'm now interested in building my own SBR.

I'm wanting to make it an AR style SBR. My question is two fold:

1). Can I just buy a lower, barrel, all the other parts, and then submit my stamp paperwork on my own (not via a FFL), and leave the weapon all in parts until stamp approval. Once approved, then build the SBR? If not, how is easiest/best to get a stamp for a weapon I am putting together?

2). When I submit my SBR paperwork, It will be attached to the SN on the lower. Does that paper work also include the caliber I have purchased? Or more importantly, can I swap barrels/uppers later down the road? In other words, let's say my original SBR build is a 5.56 AR, get my stamp, and put it all together. Could I later down the road buy a say 9mm short barrel/upper setup and swap onto my already NFA stamped AR lower????

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by T-Rex » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:55 pm

birdengineer wrote:OP is asking about building one from scratch. As others here have said, he *can* build a pistol from a new receiver(which has never been a rifle) with a sub-16" bbl and once the form 1 is approved get the stock all while staying legal.

T-rex, I believe you're wrong. A stripped lower is not a rifle, even if it has rifle stamped into it. A stripped lower is *ALWAYS* classified as "other" by the ATF, so it *can* be made into a pistol without breaking any laws.
The op asked, and I quote, "Can I just buy a lower". He never specified: stripped, virgin, pistol, rifle, etc. I DO NOT assume anything, when responding to posts.

And I am not wrong. In my home state, CT, a virgin receiver can become a rifle, when transferred, w/o anything other than a pen. If my FFL checks "long gun" on the 4473, than it IS A RIFLE, regardless of what the MFR states or its virgin status. Also, a stripped lower is NOT *ALWAYS* classified as "other", by the ATF. What if the OP were to buy a FrankFord Arsenal "stripped" lower off gunbroker, where the seller bought it as a complete rifle, but was selling just the lower. By your statement, the OP would think he could build a legal pistol, this not being the case, as it was originally a rifle.

People, like the OP, need to know ALL THE FACTS. Not just bits and pieces from this guy and that guy. Little details can make an ordinary guy into a felon, w/o him even knowing it.

Both you (birdengineer) and BadKarmaZeroSix seem to know the law, but you're processing it, in your head, a different way than you are supplying it.

Your best bet is to give someone all the information instead of just your understanding.

As I said before:
While I understand the majority of you guys are trying to help someone, be careful in the way you explain or word things, you could be creating a felon.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by birdengineer » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:05 pm

Good info there, T-rex. I hadn't considered a person deconstructing a rifle and selling the stripped lower, I guess that could be done but it just wouldn't make sense to me. I will be posting links to the letters as soon as I find them, I swear I had them all conveniently stored but now they are hiding. I'm sure a google search would find them, too. More soon-
T-Rex wrote:
birdengineer wrote:OP is asking about building one from scratch. As others here have said, he *can* build a pistol from a new receiver(which has never been a rifle) with a sub-16" bbl and once the form 1 is approved get the stock all while staying legal.

T-rex, I believe you're wrong. A stripped lower is not a rifle, even if it has rifle stamped into it. A stripped lower is *ALWAYS* classified as "other" by the ATF, so it *can* be made into a pistol without breaking any laws.
The op asked, and I quote, "Can I just buy a lower". He never specified: stripped, virgin, pistol, rifle, etc. I DO NOT assume anything, when responding to posts.

And I am not wrong. In my home state, CT, a virgin receiver can become a rifle, when transferred, w/o anything other than a pen. If my FFL checks "long gun" on the 4473, than it IS A RIFLE, regardless of what the MFR states or its virgin status. Also, a stripped lower is NOT *ALWAYS* classified as "other", by the ATF. What if the OP were to buy a FrankFord Arsenal "stripped" lower off gunbroker, where the seller bought it as a complete rifle, but was selling just the lower. By your statement, the OP would think he could build a legal pistol, this not being the case, as it was originally a rifle.

People, like the OP, need to know ALL THE FACTS. Not just bits and pieces from this guy and that guy. Little details can make an ordinary guy into a felon, w/o him even knowing it.

Both you (birdengineer) and BadKarmaZeroSix seem to know the law, but you're processing it, in your head, a different way than you are supplying it.

Your best bet is to give someone all the information instead of just your understanding.

As I said before:
While I understand the majority of you guys are trying to help someone, be careful in the way you explain or word things, you could be creating a felon.

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by BadKarmaZeroSix » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:53 pm

T-Rex wrote:
birdengineer wrote:OP is asking about building one from scratch. As others here have said, he *can* build a pistol from a new receiver(which has never been a rifle) with a sub-16" bbl and once the form 1 is approved get the stock all while staying legal.

T-rex, I believe you're wrong. A stripped lower is not a rifle, even if it has rifle stamped into it. A stripped lower is *ALWAYS* classified as "other" by the ATF, so it *can* be made into a pistol without breaking any laws.
The op asked, and I quote, "Can I just buy a lower". He never specified: stripped, virgin, pistol, rifle, etc. I DO NOT assume anything, when responding to posts.

And I am not wrong. In my home state, CT, a virgin receiver can become a rifle, when transferred, w/o anything other than a pen. If my FFL checks "long gun" on the 4473, than it IS A RIFLE, regardless of what the MFR states or its virgin status. Also, a stripped lower is NOT *ALWAYS* classified as "other", by the ATF. What if the OP were to buy a FrankFord Arsenal "stripped" lower off gunbroker, where the seller bought it as a complete rifle, but was selling just the lower. By your statement, the OP would think he could build a legal pistol, this not being the case, as it was originally a rifle.

People, like the OP, need to know ALL THE FACTS. Not just bits and pieces from this guy and that guy. Little details can make an ordinary guy into a felon, w/o him even knowing it.

Both you (birdengineer) and BadKarmaZeroSix seem to know the law, but you're processing it, in your head, a different way than you are supplying it.

Your best bet is to give someone all the information instead of just your understanding.

As I said before:
While I understand the majority of you guys are trying to help someone, be careful in the way you explain or word things, you could be creating a felon.
I strongly agree...unfortunately for myself, im not as good of a teacher as i wish i was...it was simply a scenario that i hadnt considered (buying a rifle receiver instead of new) and either i made an assumption (which is always a downfall) or i cross-read info from another thread (which shows lapse in judgement on my part)...one thing i will stress to the OP tho, is to ask your local ATF ofdice or even email the office through atfonline.gov for best responses and SAVE those emails (mine are actually copied to a flash-drive with copies scanned of my trust, identification, and approved tax stamps)...the ATF has been known to make statements for one individual, and then contradict those same statements to another...those emails could be invaluable...
And no matter what you read on the internet, always check with appropriate legal reps if you want to remain safe as possible...
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by birdengineer » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:00 pm

Here's one straight from the ATF. Now I need to figure out how to share the other PDF's I have (3 more).

ATF 2011-4 -- https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-r ... 2011-4.pdf

*edit-
a follow-up letter regarding 2011-4:
http://imgur.com/h64rvcP,CJfydUO#0 (two images)

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by birdengineer » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:00 am

Here's another opinion letter, which I know is not exactly binding, but may be helpful to someone:

http://imgur.com/1ncMmCh

Here's something that goes against a lot of things I hear about constructive intent: (wikipedia, I know, but it's a SCOTUS case so you can get the info everywhere)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... er_Arms_Co.

This also seems to be supported with ATF 2011-4 - pistol to rifle back to pistol info. I can own an AR pistol and have a non-NFA upper and spare stock. This isn't exactly what OP was asking, but info that may be helpful to OP or someone else thinking about building a pistol while waiting on form 1 SBR approval.

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by continuity » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:48 am

T-Rex wrote:While I understand the majority of you guys are trying to help someone, be careful in the way you explain or word things, you could be creating a felon.

Having a friend hold your bbl, because you found a good price is a terrible idea. I see this scenario working only if your friend bought it, then sold it to you once your stamp came in. Don't play with the ATFs interpretation of intent. It would be 1000 times better to have it held by an FFL...
Gonna call you on your position, not to be an asshole, but to place perspective on things. Was gonna include your entire post, but I'm tired and my response addresses much of the other stuff.

Couple of points. First, the primary hurdle with NFA stuff for each of us has a primary focus on state/local legal compliance. Agree that Ohio rules are gonna be different than CT's, which are different than TX's, which are different than WY's. Understood. Having said that, most state rules are based on compliance with the Fed rules. We will run afoul of a State/local jurisdictional infraction before a Fed org. Believe me, if a Fed charge relative a NFA item becomes a personal concern, it's gonna be an add on for other activity.

Second, the "constructive intent" catch phrase is not codified in any legal language that I'm aware of. It's an internet lawyer thing.

Third, "Mens Rea" (minds intention, so to speak) is a primary part of any criminal charge. Don't give me the everyone is resonsible to know every aspect of "the law". You don't. Attorneys don't. I don't (Deputy Sheriff). The primary thing is understanding and attempting to operate, with a mind to NFA stuff in our case, with a reasonable awareness of the specific topic at hand. I do NFA stuff. I make every effort to stay abrest of such things, specifically as they apply in Ohio. Obtained a copy of the Federal Firearms Reference Guide, because in Ohio, NFA items are illegal to possess... but the "affirmative defense" of possession in accordance with Fed req's, in all reality makes them legal to possess. Covoluted legalese? Maybe. But it's the legal position that matters.

I've taken a lot of crap on this site over my legal interpretation of using a Sig Arm brace. In Ohio, the application of such a device on an AR pistol, configuration of use/actuality of that behavior, as a shoulder stock on a non-NFA registered weapon, is a criminal act. My interpretation of codified law. Not making law, interpreting it at the on the street level. The court will sort it out on finality. If any arrest I make relative the issue is found to be groundless, my interpretation will change.

Finally. Don't be a dumbass. If you only have one AR lower, and possess no NFA'ed lowers, don't have a less than 16" barreled upper in proximity to them. If you are in the process of aquiring a NFA'ed lower, a friend with an NFA'ed lower is more than qualified to hold that SBR upper for you.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:13 am

T-Rex wrote: Having a friend hold your bbl, because you found a good price is a terrible idea. I see this scenario working only if your friend bought it, then sold it to you once your stamp came in. Don't play with the ATFs interpretation of intent. It would be 1000 times better to have it held by an FFL.
No issues with doing exactly what you are recommending against.

I have yet to see a CI case go through based on the fact that you are going out of your way to keep the parts separate and out of your control while you await the ATF blessing

I recommend using a friend, parents, girlfriend, etc....long before you use an FFL.

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by L1A1Rocker » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:54 am

continuity wrote:
I've taken a lot of crap on this site over my legal interpretation of using a Sig Arm brace. In Ohio, the application of such a device on an AR pistol, configuration of use/actuality of that behavior, as a shoulder stock on a non-NFA registered weapon, is a criminal act. My interpretation of codified law. Not making law, interpreting it at the on the street level. The court will sort it out on finality. If any arrest I make relative the issue is found to be groundless, my interpretation will change.
What a load of horse crap!!!

You said that you would arrest anyone you see shouldering a sig brace without having SBR papers. You would PRESUME GUILT and arrest, because you know, that's what the law says.

You are the exact kind of cop that has no idea what their oath is and it disgusts me. YOU are one of the "bad cops" that we all discuss that we must watch out for. YOU are the kind of cop that, should a NY style mag ban be enacted nation wide, would be arresting people at the gun range, because you know, that's what the law says. DISGUSTING!

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by Jt.kline19 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:26 pm

L1A1Rocker wrote:
continuity wrote:
I've taken a lot of crap on this site over my legal interpretation of using a Sig Arm brace. In Ohio, the application of such a device on an AR pistol, configuration of use/actuality of that behavior, as a shoulder stock on a non-NFA registered weapon, is a criminal act. My interpretation of codified law. Not making law, interpreting it at the on the street level. The court will sort it out on finality. If any arrest I make relative the issue is found to be groundless, my interpretation will change.
What a load of horse crap!!!

You said that you would arrest anyone you see shouldering a sig brace without having SBR papers. You would PRESUME GUILT and arrest, because you know, that's what the law says.

You are the exact kind of cop that has no idea what their oath is and it disgusts me. YOU are one of the "bad cops" that we all discuss that we must watch out for. YOU are the kind of cop that, should a NY style mag ban be enacted nation wide, would be arresting people at the gun range, because you know, that's what the law says. DISGUSTING!
It's funny cause as a police officer he holds a lot of discretion. Which he probably doesn't give an F about. Probably just a bored small town cop busting everyone's balls.
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by silencertalk » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:02 pm

continuity wrote:It's best not to have an item that would make a NFA firearm so, in proximity to a non NFA'ed lower. Have a bud (with NFA stuff) hold the barrel until the stamp comes in.
While people do say this, I don't think we should give up our rights to this degree regarding having things that if used illegally become illegal.

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by RJT » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:11 pm

silencertalk wrote:
continuity wrote:It's best not to have an item that would make a NFA firearm so, in proximity to a non NFA'ed lower. Have a bud (with NFA stuff) hold the barrel until the stamp comes in.
While people do say this, I don't think we should give up our rights to this degree regarding having things that if used illegally become illegal.

This, so many times this.

Unfortunately, there will always be some jackwagon just looking to bust you for it.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by T-Rex » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:00 pm

RJT wrote: Unfortunately, there will always be some jackwagon just looking to bust you for it.
You wouldn't be referring to an officer of the law that would, blatantly, disregard that which he was sworn to uphold and arrest individuals for engaging in acts which have been deemed legal, would you?
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Re: SBR Build and barrel questions

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:09 pm

T-Rex wrote:
RJT wrote: Unfortunately, there will always be some jackwagon just looking to bust you for it.
Would you be referring to an officer of the law that would, blatantly, disregard that which he was sworn to uphold and arrest individuals for engaging in acts which have been deemed legal, would you?
:mrgreen:

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