Can you ship a silencer?

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minmax
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Can you ship a silencer?

Post by minmax » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:12 am

I wasn't sure if this was the right place to post.

Anyway, say I have a trust can I ship the silencer to a trustee in another state? Or can I ship it to myself in another state? If I fly, I will be there before the silencer arrives.

I wanted to do this with multiple guns. What I found is very few Comercial Carriers would ship a gun. Everyone one said I would have to have my FLL ship the gun to another FLL. Then I would have to pay another transer fee. To get my guns back. The problem also was I was not a resident of the state I flew to. So I could not transfer the gun back to myself anyway.

How do the the guys that go hunting in another country, say Canada. Transport there guns if they don't want the hassle of traveling with them?

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by RJT » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:42 am

This should answer your firearms shipping questions(interstate).
https://www.atf.gov/file/61721/download

When leaving the country with firearms, you have to fly them out with you. It has been a while since I've done it, but when I went to Cordoba, I had to jump through quite a few hoops to take my shotguns.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by LawBob » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:29 pm

RJT wrote:This should answer your firearms shipping questions(interstate).
https://www.atf.gov/file/61721/download

When leaving the country with firearms, you have to fly them out with you. It has been a while since I've done it, but when I went to Cordoba, I had to jump through quite a few hoops to take my shotguns.
Don't leave the country with a silencer...

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by LawBob » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:36 pm

minmax wrote:I wasn't sure if this was the right place to post.

Anyway, say I have a trust can I ship the silencer to a trustee in another state? Or can I ship it to myself in another state? If I fly, I will be there before the silencer arrives.

I wanted to do this with multiple guns. What I found is very few Comercial Carriers would ship a gun. Everyone one said I would have to have my FLL ship the gun to another FLL. Then I would have to pay another transer fee. To get my guns back. The problem also was I was not a resident of the state I flew to. So I could not transfer the gun back to myself anyway.

How do the the guys that go hunting in another country, say Canada. Transport there guns if they don't want the hassle of traveling with them?
you can mail a long gun to yourself c/o a friend in another state, he is not to open the box, You cannot mail a handgun, but you could use a contract / common carrier (Fedex/UPS).

you cannot mail a firearm to someone else interstate, period. There is an exception to bequests/inheritance, and it makes sense that a trustee would be in a similar position. However, I do not know the answer to that.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by Bendersquint » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:39 pm

minmax wrote:I wasn't sure if this was the right place to post.

Anyway, say I have a trust can I ship the silencer to a trustee in another state? Or can I ship it to myself in another state? If I fly, I will be there before the silencer arrives.

I wanted to do this with multiple guns. What I found is very few Comercial Carriers would ship a gun. Everyone one said I would have to have my FLL ship the gun to another FLL. Then I would have to pay another transer fee. To get my guns back. The problem also was I was not a resident of the state I flew to. So I could not transfer the gun back to myself anyway.

How do the the guys that go hunting in another country, say Canada. Transport there guns if they don't want the hassle of traveling with them?
Yes, it can be shipped via UPS or FEDEX , they ship firearms regularly. Note that it must be declared as a firearm when dropping it off at a hub. You will run into problems if you are not shipping it to yourself and the recipient is NOT an FFL.

Commercial carriers do NOT recognize the validity of a Trust or that it is legal to ship a firearm to an individual that did not do the 4473 or that is not an FFL.

You can NOT ship a firearm to another country, that is exporting a firearm...you have to take it with you.

You also can not take NFA regulated firearms out of the United States.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by LawBob » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:36 pm

"You will run into problems if the recipient is not you or an FFL" means that it is illegal. Pokey time.

I read 18 usc 922 a 5 and a trustee is not within the purview of the exception.

Did your lawyer not discuss these issues with you multiple interstate trustees?

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by LawBob » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:42 pm

Re:

"
I wanted to do this with multiple guns. What I found is very few Comercial Carriers would ship a gun. Everyone one said I would have to have my FLL ship the gun to another FLL. Then I would have to pay another transer fee. To get my guns back. The problem also was I was not a resident of the state I flew to. So I could not transfer the gun back to myself anyway. "

You can ship your s--t back. The local yocal doesn't know the law. Print the ups or fedex policy and show them.
Of its a long gun or shotgun
Then usps is fine to ship back.

Having said that, you're traveling home
Why aren't you just packing it?


Re Canada: International is a whole other beast.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by doubloon » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:07 am

minmax wrote:... What I found is very few Comercial Carriers would ship a gun. ...
What you find is very few people working behind the counter understand the existing interpretation of the law when it comes to shipping guns or probably much of anything else but I haven't yet tried shipping anything more dangerous like fruit or wine.

I have also run into problems shipping guns to licensed parties even when I show the carrier the rules printed on their own web site. They still want a copy of my FFL before they accept the package.
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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by LawBob » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:15 am

doubloon wrote:
minmax wrote:... What I found is very few Comercial Carriers would ship a gun. ...
What you find is very few people working behind the counter understand the existing interpretation of the law when it comes to shipping guns or probably much of anything else but I haven't yet tried shipping anything more dangerous like fruit or wine.

I have also run into problems shipping guns to licensed parties even when I show the carrier the rules printed on their own web site. They still want a copy of my FFL before they accept the package.
I understand.

Print the above referenced link from the ATF, and print out the FedeX or UPS or USPS page and highlight it. Ask them to call their manager if they don't understand.

Re FFL to ship, some states may have that requirement.

Oregon (or Washington, cannot recall) requires you to ship from an FFL (i.e., it's been booked and then shipped). Vermont I just shipped direct to their FFL. That varies per state.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by doubloon » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:03 pm

Yeah, I've tried all that with UPS a couple times.

Once I ended up on the phone with someone who was supposed to be a regional manager who said they would "check into it" but I never heard back from them.

Another time the only response was "How much do you want to insure it for?"

Another time I was told I had to ship it from a hub or whatever they call a central office for the area.

The best luck I ever had was shipping an airgun via USPS. Took all the appropriate printed ATF, USC, USPS materials with me, got past the initial shock of "YOU HAVE A GUN IN THE BOX?" and finally ended up with the clerk behind the counter reluctantly agreeing to let me ship it but warned me it could be destroyed and he wouldn't be responsible.
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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by LawBob » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:52 pm

doubloon wrote:Yeah, I've tried all that with UPS a couple times.

Once I ended up on the phone with someone who was supposed to be a regional manager who said they would "check into it" but I never heard back from them.

Another time the only response was "How much do you want to insure it for?"

Another time I was told I had to ship it from a hub or whatever they call a central office for the area.

The best luck I ever had was shipping an airgun via USPS. Took all the appropriate printed ATF, USC, USPS materials with me, got past the initial shock of "YOU HAVE A GUN IN THE BOX?" and finally ended up with the clerk behind the counter reluctantly agreeing to let me ship it but warned me it could be destroyed and he wouldn't be responsible.
Ups won't ship from a ups store or field office. Has to be a distribution like center.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by Bendersquint » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:58 pm

LawBob wrote:
doubloon wrote:Yeah, I've tried all that with UPS a couple times.

Once I ended up on the phone with someone who was supposed to be a regional manager who said they would "check into it" but I never heard back from them.

Another time the only response was "How much do you want to insure it for?"

Another time I was told I had to ship it from a hub or whatever they call a central office for the area.

The best luck I ever had was shipping an airgun via USPS. Took all the appropriate printed ATF, USC, USPS materials with me, got past the initial shock of "YOU HAVE A GUN IN THE BOX?" and finally ended up with the clerk behind the counter reluctantly agreeing to let me ship it but warned me it could be destroyed and he wouldn't be responsible.
Ups won't ship from a ups store or field office. Has to be a distribution like center.
Thats a good point.

According to UPS regulations UPS Stores, Outlets etc...can not handle firearms. ONLY HUBS can.

Aside from company policy a UPS store is a mediating courier office....that means that if there is damage to YOUR package you have to file the claim with the store then THEY file a claim with UPS as YOU didn't ship it through UPS but through a courier service. I have dealt with this in the past...not with firearms but other goods, and its like pulling teeth because rather than going after a corporation to replace your item you are going after a individual business owner who has a lot more to lose by paying out on your claim.

UPS Stores aren't considered common carrier either, so its like handing a gun to a guy on a bike and asking him to deliver it to your dads house.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by silencer_kid » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:49 am

Bendersquint wrote:
Thats a good point.

According to UPS regulations UPS Stores, Outlets etc...can not handle firearms. ONLY HUBS can.
+1, as stated on the UPS site https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resou ... earms.html
Bendersquint wrote:
Aside from company policy a UPS store is a mediating courier office....that means that if there is damage to YOUR package you have to file the claim with the store then THEY file a claim with UPS as YOU didn't ship it through UPS but through a courier service. I have dealt with this in the past...not with firearms but other goods, and its like pulling teeth because rather than going after a corporation to replace your item you are going after a individual business owner who has a lot more to lose by paying out on your claim.

UPS Stores aren't considered common carrier either, so its like handing a gun to a guy on a bike and asking him to deliver it to your dads house.
how so? once a UPS store scans your item into the UPS system, it is now insured by UPS. if there's an issue (lost item, damaged) at that store then UPS pays the claim and then the issue is between UPS and the store. i had some stuff damaged in the past, had dropped it off at a The UPS Store, made my claim with UPS directly, UPS paid my claim, did not have to deal with the store itself. not even sure how anyone would determine if the store itself damaged the goods or if UPS itself did, unless it's a high ticket item i dont think UPS even cares as a your $2k insured item is just a few seconds of their time.

i think the process gets convoluted when there are so many 3rd parties taking in packages for UPS. but, i always make sure they scan it and give me a receipt.

handling of items that contain firearms, hah, user beware. if its a pricey item, it better be packed with over-kill (no pun intended). and carelessness, once had an airline deliver my clearly marked luggage (big red/orange firearms label) out onto the general carousel at a big busy airport, lucky i was there before the luggage started to dump out, they were supposed to hand deliver it to the luggage office for me to get with my ID.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by LawBob » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:02 pm

silencer_kid wrote:
Bendersquint wrote:
Thats a good point.

According to UPS regulations UPS Stores, Outlets etc...can not handle firearms. ONLY HUBS can.
+1, as stated on the UPS site https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resou ... earms.html
Bendersquint wrote:
Aside from company policy a UPS store is a mediating courier office....that means that if there is damage to YOUR package you have to file the claim with the store then THEY file a claim with UPS as YOU didn't ship it through UPS but through a courier service. I have dealt with this in the past...not with firearms but other goods, and its like pulling teeth because rather than going after a corporation to replace your item you are going after a individual business owner who has a lot more to lose by paying out on your claim.

UPS Stores aren't considered common carrier either, so its like handing a gun to a guy on a bike and asking him to deliver it to your dads house.
how so? once a UPS store scans your item into the UPS system, it is now insured by UPS. if there's an issue (lost item, damaged) at that store then UPS pays the claim and then the issue is between UPS and the store. i had some stuff damaged in the past, had dropped it off at a The UPS Store, made my claim with UPS directly, UPS paid my claim, did not have to deal with the store itself. not even sure how anyone would determine if the store itself damaged the goods or if UPS itself did, unless it's a high ticket item i dont think UPS even cares as a your $2k insured item is just a few seconds of their time.

i think the process gets convoluted when there are so many 3rd parties taking in packages for UPS. but, i always make sure they scan it and give me a receipt.

handling of items that contain firearms, hah, user beware. if its a pricey item, it better be packed with over-kill (no pun intended). and carelessness, once had an airline deliver my clearly marked luggage (big red/orange firearms label) out onto the general carousel at a big busy airport, lucky i was there before the luggage started to dump out, they were supposed to hand deliver it to the luggage office for me to get with my ID.
Well, they probably don't insure firearms from UPS stores...so that's the difference.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by doubloon » Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:21 pm

A UPS driver's guide to shipping firearms.
http://americanshootingjournal.com/a-up ... -firearms/

Someone's attempt to solve the firearm shipping problem.
https://www.shipmygun.com/go/faq.php
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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by silencer_kid » Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:38 pm

LawBob wrote: Well, they probably don't insure firearms from UPS stores...so that's the difference.
what do you mean? the store itself (a 3rd party to UPS), or UPS itself. Does UPS have a "not insurable" list? i have never seen one.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by LawBob » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:16 am

silencer_kid wrote:
LawBob wrote: Well, they probably don't insure firearms from UPS stores...so that's the difference.
what do you mean? the store itself (a 3rd party to UPS), or UPS itself. Does UPS have a "not insurable" list? i have never seen one.
Fact: You can't ship firearms from a ups store.

Guess: Ups insurance won't cover it. Hence the fact.

Reason? Guess: too many touches.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by silencer_kid » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:16 pm

LawBob wrote:
silencer_kid wrote:
LawBob wrote: Well, they probably don't insure firearms from UPS stores...so that's the difference.
what do you mean? the store itself (a 3rd party to UPS), or UPS itself. Does UPS have a "not insurable" list? i have never seen one.
Fact: You can't ship firearms from a ups store.

Guess: Ups insurance won't cover it. Hence the fact.

Reason? Guess: too many touches.
ah, ok. i was only talking about the retails stores in general.

one note though, the receiving party (destination) does not need to always be a FFL, as the UPS site suggests.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by doubloon » Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:18 pm

silencer_kid wrote:...
one note though, the receiving party (destination) does not need to always be a FFL, as the UPS site suggests.
UPS isn't making "suggestions" they are telling you what they will accept, not the entirety of what the law allows for unlicensed individuals.

https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resou ... earms.html
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.
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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by silencer_kid » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:38 am

doubloon wrote:Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation only (a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies and (b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state or local law (i) from an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.
uhmmm, shipper has no clue if the destination is a FFL or not. UPS doesnt have a database of FFL addresses, they simply quoted some USC stuff, and as long as at the destination i am legal to posses my firearm, i can ship it to myself (interstate).

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by doubloon » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:32 pm

Sure, they don't know so that makes it OK.

Just lie to them and ship it to anyone anywhere you want, easy peasy.

Sometimes I tell them I'm shipping candles to my grandma in Hobart Bay when it's really bricks of heroin going to my partner in Port Alexander who drops it off to a guy out of Prince Rupert.

As long as they don't know, it's all good.
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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by Joker31D » Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:17 pm

The UPS stores are owned by a different corporation that is owned by the same corporation, the Carrier UPS is different from the UPS stores. They do that for several reasons: The carrier contracts the stores to handle their packages and they are not part of the Carrier UPS company, only owned by the corporation. I know stupid sh*t but legally it allows them to get around using Union workers in union states and keeps their stores open when their "handlers" go on strike. It also is done for tax purposes. Because of this only an employee of the carrier may handle the firearm because they are excluded from the rule. Some internal insight: Firearms cannot be loaded on "mixed route trucks" meaning that the trucks that are contracted to carry US Mail for the USPS cannot have firearms on board. so if a truck is loaded with both UPS and USPS packages and one firearm, the Firearm will be carried by the next truck. This is why they sometimes go faster than regular packages, they will sent them with their Critical Care Driver who carries stuff like research samples, Food, Human Organ etc.
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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by Prince Yamato » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:17 pm

You can NOT ship a firearm to another country, that is exporting a firearm...you have to take it with you.
That's not exactly correct. At one point, a couple years ago, I was looking at a potential move to Germany or the Czech Republic. I inquired about shipping my guns (including silencers). I was referred to the State Department. I think one employee at the entire State Department knows anything about firearms. The rest seemed to think I was looking to ship weapons to insurgents or something. At any rate, if you are moving out of the country with weapons, that is who you contact. You can "ship" them out, but it falls under the purview of "exporting".

I'm probably on a list now, thanks to that phone call.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:25 pm

Prince Yamato wrote:
You can NOT ship a firearm to another country, that is exporting a firearm...you have to take it with you.
That's not exactly correct. At one point, a couple years ago, I was looking at a potential move to Germany or the Czech Republic. I inquired about shipping my guns (including silencers). I was referred to the State Department. I think one employee at the entire State Department knows anything about firearms. The rest seemed to think I was looking to ship weapons to insurgents or something. At any rate, if you are moving out of the country with weapons, that is who you contact. You can "ship" them out, but it falls under the purview of "exporting".

I'm probably on a list now, thanks to that phone call.
Been through this situation last year with a guy moving to Germany as a US contractor.

ATF says to contact State Dept....State Dept submits the list for verification to the ATF and ATF denies the exportation of the NFA items, Title1 is not problem but the NFA gets denied.

Only a licensed exporter can export NFA items and those items are REQUIRED to have an end destination of a foreign government, it CAN NOT be transferred to civilians regardless the legality in that country. End User Certificates and all that are required.

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Re: Can you ship a silencer?

Post by mr fixit » Tue Mar 08, 2016 10:04 am

doubloon wrote:Sure, they don't know so that makes it OK.

Just lie to them and ship it to anyone anywhere you want, easy peasy.

Sometimes I tell them I'm shipping candles to my grandma in Hobart Bay when it's really bricks of heroin going to my partner in Port Alexander who drops it off to a guy out of Prince Rupert.

As long as they don't know, it's all good.
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Seriously, what is the penalty for not telling them what exactly is in the package?

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