Quick SBR engraving question

[Joker31D]

If I filed under a trust and there is an abbreviation in the trust for the name of the trust can i have the abbreviation used on my engraving? Pretty sure I can but want to gauge opinion.
example: Bobs Family Trust (BFT), the legal papers do say it will be know as (BFT)
This of course is not my real info but my trust does have a long name and the abbreviation will be easier.

[RogerRonas]

I believe that the engraving MUST match the Trust name. In the mentioned case that would be BFT.

HTH
Roger

[Bendersquint]

If I filed under a trust and there is an abbreviation in the trust for the name of the trust can i have the abbreviation used on my engraving? Pretty sure I can but want to gauge opinion.
example: Bobs Family Trust (BFT), the legal papers do say it will be know as (BFT)
This of course is not my real info but my trust does have a long name and the abbreviation will be easier.

The official name of the trust must be engraved. You can not use abbreviations, abbreviations are only allowed IN the trust documentation not for NFA engraving purposes.

ANYONE looking at the engraving must be able to read it, understand it without a decoder ring.

[Joker31D]

Thanks, I have seen quite a few that are not done right then, hmm, I trust you, no pun, I figured your Tax Stamp paperwork was the decoder ring, I need to make another trust and change the name then transfer my stuff then, no way it will fit where I want to put it. (SBR is a Glock 20 and the name would be almost 30 characters long with spaces. never thought about doing it on a pistol prior to now. How does DPMS, LWRC, LMT and all the others get away with it? I understand they are Registered Manufacturers but you would think that a standard is a standard and your paperwork has your name on it.

[Bendersquint]

Thanks, I have seen quite a few that are not done right then, hmm, I trust you, no pun, I figured your Tax Stamp paperwork was the decoder ring, I need to make another trust and change the name then transfer my stuff then, no way it will fit where I want to put it. (SBR is a Glock 20 and the name would be almost 30 characters long with spaces. never thought about doing it on a pistol prior to now.

Thats a fun engraving on a plastic lower!

If the Approved stamp was the decoder ring you would be able to engrave... "See Form4".

[Joker31D]

I know the plastic is going to be hell, it only has to be 1/16" , I guess it will help a little.

read the ATF statute on markings:

§479.102

III. Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the same of the foreign manufacturer or maker.


I recognize the abbreviation

Trying to make a hog setup using a 10mm Glock in a KPOS frame with a suppressor and a 6"barrel. The other way I guess is to pin and weld a suppressor to the end to make it 16" but I'd rather do it the easy way, I have seen so many people engrave the KPOS frame or the slide and call it a day but I know its not legal. Its hard to make everything above board when the leave everything up to interpretation by the dumbest person in any room.




I had to look up what C.A.I. was when I bought a few of the WASR's when they first came out, wonder how they get away with it.
still have an ak somewhere that says: GSAD MANH BEA.,CA as an import stamp. (Still searching for that one for my log book, bugs the hell out of me)

not doubting you, at this point I'm still baffled to think that they made the rule to double mark SBR's and then allowed SR's to be remarked. I have worked on a WIT Team and our database was huge and to think that the ATF has one that is several thousand times bigger is crazy, our database was almost a terabyte just for markings, serial numbers of known weapons was almost as big and only had serial numbers in Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbia and Turn ins.

[Bendersquint]

I know the plastic is going to be hell, it only has to be 1/16" , I guess it will help a little.

read the ATF statute on markings:

§479.102

III. Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when applicable, the same of the foreign manufacturer or maker.


I recognize the abbreviation

Trying to make a hog setup using a 10mm Glock in a KPOS frame with a suppressor and a 6"barrel. The other way I guess is to pin and weld a suppressor to the end to make it 16" but I'd rather do it the easy way, I have seen so many people engrave the KPOS frame or the slide and call it a day but I know its not legal. Its hard to make everything above board when the leave everything up to interpretation by the dumbest person in any room.




I had to look up what C.A.I. was when I bought a few of the WASR's when they first came out, wonder how they get away with it.
still have an ak somewhere that says: GSAD MANH BEA.,CA as an import stamp. (Still searching for that one for my log book, bugs the hell out of me)

not doubting you, at this point I'm still baffled to think that they made the rule to double mark SBR's and then allowed SR's to be remarked. I have worked on a WIT Team and our database was huge and to think that the ATF has one that is several thousand times bigger is crazy, our database was almost a terabyte just for markings, serial numbers of known weapons was almost as big and only had serial numbers in Afghanistan, Iraq, Serbia and Turn ins.

CAI gets away with it as they have an approved importers marking variance and they aren't Title2 items. Title2 firearms are a completely different world.

Its not double marking an SBR. The SBR started life as a Title1(Grock), then it was made into a Title2 by a different entity. If Grock turned it into an Title2 firearm for you then there would be no double mark as their info is already engraved.

[Joker31D]

I understand why we do it; its because we are the last maker in the chain. not doubting your word in any way, just conversing socially about the topic btw, dont want any misunderstandings.


I'm not sure about a variance being issued for Century, I have dealt with them alot in the past (Have an account still) and they arent as above board as most people think, I have had things sent with no import markings, some had the sn stamped over and no new import sn. most places would get in a lot of trouble for some things they have done but they have so much inventory that the ATF would spend months trying to audit just one of their warehouses. I had a rifle ordered once (Actually 10 of the same rifle) was told that my rifles were seized in Greece along with 100,000 others and we were told that I could get a credit, wait for the next batch or keep waiting for up to a year for them to clear customs, they eventually lost that shipment to Greek Customs because of a paperwork problem, I'm guessing they didnt give them enough Paper (Money) to make it work. It was part of the huge shipment that was seized and they were brought up on charges of smuggling arms. (it was settled from what I was told but was in the news for a while)

I'll ask a guy here about a variance for abbreviations, He has lower receivers made and they are stamped with their company name abbreviated, I'm assuming he would know about it because he owns the company. Again, not doubting you, just fully exhausting all avenues of information and beating the issue to death before giving up.

I also want to know how to register an abbreviation if its possible or if I can have the name of my trust changed without too much trouble. I read a statue on it in the ATF paperwork but not sure how it would apply to my question the way it is written. they make this stuff so vague and screw you for any sensible interpretation.

[Bendersquint]

I understand why we do it; its because we are the last maker in the chain. not doubting your word in any way, just conversing socially about the topic btw, dont want any misunderstandings.


I'm not sure about a variance being issued for Century, I have dealt with them alot in the past (Have an account still) and they arent as above board as most people think, I have had things sent with no import markings, some had the sn stamped over and no new import sn. most places would get in a lot of trouble for some things they have done but they have so much inventory that the ATF would spend months trying to audit just one of their warehouses. I had a rifle ordered once (Actually 10 of the same rifle) was told that my rifles were seized in Greece along with 100,000 others and we were told that I could get a credit, wait for the next batch or keep waiting for up to a year for them to clear customs, they eventually lost that shipment to Greek Customs because of a paperwork problem, I'm guessing they didnt give them enough Paper (Money) to make it work. It was part of the huge shipment that was seized and they were brought up on charges of smuggling arms. (it was settled from what I was told but was in the news for a while)

I'll ask a guy here about a variance for abbreviations, He has lower receivers made and they are stamped with their company name abbreviated, I'm assuming he would know about it because he owns the company. Again, not doubting you, just fully exhausting all avenues of information and beating the issue to death before giving up.

I also want to know how to register an abbreviation if its possible or if I can have the name of my trust changed without too much trouble. I read a statue on it in the ATF paperwork but not sure how it would apply to my question the way it is written. they make this stuff so vague and screw you for any sensible interpretation.

CAI is approved to use that abbreviation, but you are now diving well into licensee territory and she same rules DO NOT APPLY for individuals.

Individuals(non-licensees) can not get marking variances, only licensees can.

You can not "register" an abbreviation and you also can't change your trust name if there are items registered to it without incurring new paid transfers.

Give me a call if you want to exhaust even more avenues.

[Prince Yamato]

The abbreviations have to be common.

ex: NYC, NY.; Wash. D.C. (which of course, you'll never see on an NFA Item).

or for names

Tho. Smith (Thomas Smith) or Geo. Smith III (George Smith "the third").

These are established abbreviations at least 100 years old and historically recognized.


You can NOT get away with:

Dal, TX (Dallas, TX) or Seat, WA (Seattle Washington)

or

Ro. Smth (Robert Smith) or Tay S.3 (Taylor Smith III)

[O2HeN2]

The abbreviations have to be common.

Will have to disagree. There is a more specific definition than "common":

The only abbreviations allowed are in the address (not trust name) and can only be accepted US Post Office abbreviations, found in Appendix B and C here: http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub28/28apb.htm

So Colorado Springs, Colorado can be abbreviated "CO SPGS, CO" since "Colorado" and "Springs" both have accepted USPO abbreviations.

If it's not in the USPO abbreviation list, you can't use it.

As for the trust name, if the trust is called "Tho. Smith" you can engrave it. If it's called "Thomas Smith" you can't engrave "Tho. Smith".

O2

[telero]

Individuals(non-licensees) can not get marking variances, only licensees can.

Looks like the law says that a maker can get a marking variance. It may just be a matter of policy that they don't. I'm curious if or how many non-licensees have tried? The Director may, not must, authorize variances.

27 CFR 479.102
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm...
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you...

The guide for requesting variances (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/guide-requ ... -variances) and all related documents from that page (including clarification rulings) only mention licensed manufacturers and importers.

[Bendersquint]

The abbreviations have to be common.

Will have to disagree. There is a more specific definition than "common":

The only abbreviations allowed are in the address (not trust name) and can only be accepted US Post Office abbreviations, found in Appendix B and C here: http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub28/28apb.htm

So Colorado Springs, Colorado can be abbreviated "CO SPGS, CO" since "Colorado" and "Springs" both have accepted USPO abbreviations.

If it's not in the USPO abbreviation list, you can't use it.

As for the trust name, if the trust is called "Tho. Smith" you can engrave it. If it's called "Thomas Smith" you can't engrave "Tho. Smith".

O2

Completely agree.

[Bendersquint]

Individuals(non-licensees) can not get marking variances, only licensees can.

Looks like the law says that a maker can get a marking variance. It may just be a matter of policy that they don't. I'm curious if or how many non-licensees have tried? The Director may, not must, authorize variances.

27 CFR 479.102
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm...
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you...

The guide for requesting variances (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/guide-requ ... -variances) and all related documents from that page (including clarification rulings) only mention licensed manufacturers and importers.

It only mentions licensed manufacturers and importers because its only available to them, if it were available to individuals there would be references in there on handling such requests.

ATF does not approve marking variances for individuals.

I have helped in the last 12 years no fewer that 50 different applicants from various states with various objects and not a single one has been given a marking variance, in fact they have been told that marking variances are only available to licensees for a number of reasons.

I have personally submitted 11 requests in the last 10 years and all denied.

I can get one as a licensee but its still a headache and alot of paperwork to go through.....EXACT same packet submitted as an individual.....DENIED.

[Elkins45]

Can you get what you need to fit on the exposed 1" of barrel? Engraving on the barrel of a SBR is legal. At 1/16" minimum height you should get quite a few words around the circumference of the barrel.

[Joker31D]

I'm going to have to do something different because its way to long to fit and the engraver I contacted is now saying the polymer is going to be a problem, I guess I can do the slide or extended barrel portion, maybe I'll buy a 6" barrel for the Glock 20. I did see that some guys were engraving the stock adapter but that didnt seem kosher to me because weather I have it installed in the stock or not it is still an SBR.

[Bendersquint]

I'm going to have to do something different because its way to long to fit and the engraver I contacted is now saying the polymer is going to be a problem, I guess I can do the slide or extended barrel portion, maybe I'll buy a 6" barrel for the Glock 20. I did see that some guys were engraving the stock adapter but that didnt seem kosher to me because weather I have it installed in the stock or not it is still an SBR.

Can't do the slide, you can do the exposed portion of the barrel though.

Can't engrave stock adapter as the ATF doesn't consider then firearms.

[Joker31D]

then why is the barrel ok?

[telero]

Can't do the slide, you can do the exposed portion of the barrel though.

Can do the slide per ATF Ruling 2013-3

https://www.atf.gov/file/4881/download
"The manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously place on the
frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) his/her own name (or
recognized abbreviation) and location (city and State, or recognized abbreviation of
the State) as specified under his/her Federal firearms license (if a licensee);"

[O2HeN2]

Nevermind.

[Bendersquint]

Can't do the slide, you can do the exposed portion of the barrel though.

Can do the slide per ATF Ruling 2013-3

https://www.atf.gov/file/4881/download
"The manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously place on the
frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) his/her own name (or
recognized abbreviation) and location (city and State, or recognized abbreviation of
the State) as specified under his/her Federal firearms license (if a licensee);"

Error in my notes, had that ruling documented for importers and manufacturers.

Thanks for the catch Telero.

[Elkins45]

Can't do the slide, you can do the exposed portion of the barrel though.

Can do the slide per ATF Ruling 2013-3

https://www.atf.gov/file/4881/download
"The manufacturer, importer, or maker must legibly and conspicuously place on the
frame, receiver, barrel, or pistol slide (if applicable) his/her own name (or
recognized abbreviation) and location (city and State, or recognized abbreviation of
the State) as specified under his/her Federal firearms license (if a licensee);"

Error in my notes, had that ruling documented for importers and manufacturers.

Thanks for the catch Telero.

So does that mean someone making a SBR from an AR-type rifle can engrave the upper receiver? It does specifically say "receiver" after all.

[Bendersquint]

So does that mean someone making a SBR from an AR-type rifle can engrave the upper receiver? It does specifically say "receiver" after all.

For ATF purposes the part that is a firearm is called a receiver/frame/action. AR15 terminology created the terms upper and lower receiver...has nothing to do with ATF terminology.

So no you can't engrave the upper receiver of an AR15, but you can the barrel so long as its wholly unobstructed from view.