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Machineguns, assault rifles, subguns, SBRs, etc. Photos, questions, discussion. General talk.

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Pistol and SBR, or SBR only.

Pistol and SBR, Configure with mind and stance.
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57%
SBR only. Not a Pistol. Can't be a pistol.
3
43%
Pistol and SBR, Configure with mind and stance... but go to Prison.
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No votes
 
Total votes: 7

0101silent
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Post by 0101silent » Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:29 pm

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Last edited by 0101silent on Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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CanOfWhooppass
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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:40 am

I think your logic that a SBR reciever can somehow not fall under the restrictions of a SBR based upon how it looks or is held is totally wrong. Even a stripped reciever is a SBR.
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0101silent
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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by 0101silent » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:42 pm

CanOfWhooppass wrote:I think your logic that a SBR reciever can somehow not fall under the restrictions of a SBR based upon how it looks or is held is totally wrong. Even a stripped reciever is a SBR.
Quoted from page 10 of the NFA Handbook. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-f ... t-handbook
"Of all the different firearms defined as NFA weapons, machineguns are the only type where the receiver of the weapon by itself is an NFA firearm"

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by themonk » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:02 pm

If you put a 16" upper on a SBR lower, although the lower is still registered as an SBR the upper carries no restrictions > Do you need to fill out a 5320.20 to cross state lines?

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by 0101silent » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:28 pm

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CanOfWhooppass
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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:26 pm

My understanding is that once it is a SBR it is a rifle, and even if removed from the NFA it would be a rifle. The reciever is for a rifle and it is imposible to make it into a pistol. I think saying it is not a SBR would make it an AOW which is fine, because it is already NFA but not a pistol.

Would love to hear from the real pro's, but this is my understanding.

This not to say if stopped nobody would figure it out, but I don't think it is legal.
It's not a silencer, it's a can of whoopass!

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:30 pm

0101silent wrote:
themonk wrote:If you put a 16" upper on a SBR lower, although the lower is still registered as an SBR the upper carries no restrictions > Do you need to fill out a 5320.20 to cross state lines?
It's not a SBR if it has a 16" barrel. In my opinion "no".
I've run across an ATF ruling that said a SBR with long barrel is not SBR and can be transported, but not with short barrel in possesion. But this is converting rifle to rifle, not rifle to pistol as OP discusses.
It's not a silencer, it's a can of whoopass!

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:37 pm

CanOfWhooppass wrote:I think your logic that a SBR reciever can somehow not fall under the restrictions of a SBR based upon how it looks or is held is totally wrong. Even a stripped reciever is a SBR.
I was mostly wrong here, adding the longer barrel does remove the restrictions of NFA. However once a pistol is made into a SBR it is a rifle and cannot ever be a pistol again, so I had part of it right.
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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by BISHOP » Fri May 27, 2016 5:30 pm

But you can still put the sig brace on it. It doesn't make it illegal.

SBR is an SBR. Changing its look doesn't change its classification.

Removing the stock and installing a pistol buffer tube on to my SBR Ar15 doesn't turn it into a pistol. Its still an SBR on paper and classification.


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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by propeine » Sat May 28, 2016 12:26 am

0101silent wrote:I was at my local gun store before I read the most recent open letter about the Sig Brace and after the letter was released. There was a Factory Sig Pistol with a Sig Brace for sale. The salesman insisted that I don't shoulder the weapon in the store or anywhere else. He suggested that I fill out a Form 4 and wait, or if I have extreme self control to fill out a Form 1.

My question is If I apply for a Tax stamp to turn a pistol into a SBR, and I "redesign" it with the power of my mind and shooting pose can I return it to the original pistol configuration and "redesign" it with nothing more than the power of my mind and shooting stance?

My guess is that the answer is "yes". A SBR lower with a 16" barreled upper is not a NFA weapon. A pistol lower with a Pistol/SBR upper is a pistol. A pistol with a Sig Brace is Pistol, not a NFA weapon. There are several weapons kits on the market that go from pistol to rifle to pistol.

I'm asking because the carry, transportation, and possession laws in Ohio and many other states are different for Rifles, SBR's, and Pistols.
In Ohio it would be favorable to have a weapon classified as a pistol.

With a SBR/Piston I could legally carry and transport the weapon as a pistol, legally be able to shoulder the weapon at a shooting range as a SBR, then I could remove the weapon from my shoulder and meditate to clear SBR thoughts from my mind and return it to the pistol configuration.

Yes this is a real question.
Dig hard into your laws. Right across the border in PA I can have a locked and loaded SBR or SBS in my car the same as a pistol. If it has greater than 16in or 18in barrel I cannot. The laws in PA are based around the game commission so the way it's worded directly references barrel length. I was in the same boat until I learned that little tidbit.

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by crazyelece » Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:49 pm

A recent similar discussion

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_51/46379 ... stol_.html

I have never seen anything but hearsay about this issue.

As far as I have seen, there has been no "official" stance from BATFE

If pushed, I'd say they will favor the ruling that SBR back to pistol is NOT allowed.

BUT, I doubt they would prosecute unless the odds were stacked in their favor as to avoid losing in a similar manor to the TC case

State laws may vary.

If trying for a workaround in OH, buy another lower and configure it as a pistol - Done!

Carry and transport it as a pistol, swap lowers and rock the SBR at the range

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by fishman » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:58 am

crazyelece wrote:If trying for a workaround in OH, buy another lower and configure it as a pistol - Done!

Carry and transport it as a pistol, swap lowers and rock the SBR at the range
+1

Another dedicated pistol lower only costs like $150-200 to build
300 blackout form 1: http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=137293

5.56 form 1:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=141800&p=955647#p955647

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by 0101silent » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:46 am

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Last edited by 0101silent on Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by rimshaker » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:13 pm

The Sig brace fiasco was dumbfounding. From a mental/psychological aspect mostly.
The most important thing is to have an approved stamp, period.
Then you can safely play these rifle/not-a-rifle/SBR/pistol/shoulder/not-shoulder/state-lines mindgames all you want..... unlike what happened to this poor chap:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/18699 ... d_SBR.html

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Re: SBRing an AR pistol with a SIG Brace. Handgun and SBR?

Post by crazyelece » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:13 pm

This is the point though, OP is talking federal laws and state laws.

Federally speaking everything is fine with an approved stamp and this particular configuration (no matter what is on your mind about the brace or where you actually stick it at any given time) - no issues.

State issue however is the following - Any loaded weapon in a vehicle is considered "concealed." In Ohio, we have a CHL - concealed handgun license - not a CCW. Only handguns are allowed to be carried concealed, no long guns, knives, billy clubs, brass knuckles, etc. So if the OP's SBR does NOT magically turn itself back into a pistol, it is NOT allowed to be carried "concealed" any longer.

Federal issues would come up if traveling to other states and/or trying to sell as a pistol.

I can't stress this enough, everyone references the TC case in issues like this - Can you afford to take this issue all the way through SCOTUS (who is down a very influential pro2A member I might add)? Because TC had to - just saying - another dedicated pistol lower looks mighty cheap.

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