Remove rifle from sbr status

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cyclone72
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by cyclone72 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:31 pm

John A. wrote:I know the NFA branch put their approval on that, but doesn't really change the records in the computer regardless of which barrel length is installed at any given time.

Remember, you can change any barrel length or caliber as a temporary change any time you wish.

But they want to be notified of PERMANENT changes.
I definitely agree with this.

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T-Rex
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by T-Rex » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:53 pm

If you remove the upper from your registered SBR, to install a different (regardless of length), no, it doesn't change status because you're retaining the short barreled upper which makes it an SBR. As stated in my previews post, ATF says "provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR".

Remember, your receiver need not be marked w/ registered caliber. If I throw away my 223bbl and replace it with a 300blk, does my receiver know the difference? Also, this has altered the description of Item 4c and, possibly, 4e&f. However, no law requires me to notify ATF (only a simple note) and I don't feel any of this can be construed as permanent, as I could readily install a different bbl w/o so much as manipulating 2 pins.

If I replace the <16" bbl for one which is >16", and sell the rifle, it has now been transferred as title 1 firearm and not on a Form 4. The new owner would need a Form 1 to return it to SBR status as well as engrave their own info on the receiver. I feel this makes sense, not perfect, but sensible.

You machinegun example doesn't quite fly. If the receiver is registered, than it's the 3rd hole that makes it the MG, not the trigger. Simply removing the trigger wouldn't remove it from MG status, but, I believe, welding over the 3rd hole or filling in the shelf could.
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by doubloon » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:02 pm

T-Rex wrote:If you remove the upper from your registered SBR, to install a different (regardless of length), no, it doesn't change status because you're retaining the short barreled upper which makes it an SBR. As stated in my previews post, ATF says "provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR".

Remember, your receiver need not be marked w/ registered caliber. If I throw away my 223bbl and replace it with a 300blk, does my receiver know the difference? Also, this has altered the description of Item 4c and, possibly, 4e&f. However, no law requires me to notify ATF (only a simple note) and I don't feel any of this can be construed as permanent, as I could readily install a different bbl w/o so much as manipulating 2 pins.

If I replace the <16" bbl for one which is >16", and sell the rifle, it has now been transferred as title 1 firearm and not on a Form 4. The new owner would need a Form 1 to return it to SBR status as well as engrave their own info on the receiver. I feel this makes sense, not perfect, but sensible.

You machinegun example doesn't quite fly. If the receiver is registered, than it's the 3rd hole that makes it the MG, not the trigger. Simply removing the trigger wouldn't remove it from MG status, but, I believe, welding over the 3rd hole or filling in the shelf could.
You have a lot more faith than I in the "system".

While I do subscribe to the idea that if you are being questioned about the pedigree of an item in your possession you have already done something to attract unwanted attention I, personally, would not like to be in a situation where I needed to explain to anyone how I came to be in possession of an item engraved with someone else's NFA "identity" whose serial number may or may not be in the mythical NFA registry for which I do not rightly possess papers regardless of the current configuration of the item.

That's just the kind of wuss I am. :mrgreen:
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T-Rex
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by T-Rex » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:23 pm

I understand.

However, if you're in possession of a title 1 rifle, with valid transfer paperwork and the firearm is not reported stolen, what are they going to say? It's perfectly legal to engrave whatever you want on a receiver. Simply putting someone else's name and location doesn't make it an SBR. And the mere fact it has a >16" bbl doesn't make it an SBR. That stamp (Form 1) was only valid for the previous owner. You'd need your own Form 4 to make the SBR status hold true for you. W/o this and a >16"bbl, I see nothing beyond a title 1 firearm and I doubt 99% of the police force would know any different. Again, not sure if a gun check comes back w/ NFA status.

I understand and agree w/ your "you have already done something to attract unwanted attention" statement.
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by John A. » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:01 pm

T-Rex wrote:I understand.

However, if you're in possession of a title 1 rifle, with valid transfer paperwork and the firearm is not reported stolen, what are they going to say? It's perfectly legal to engrave whatever you want on a receiver. Simply putting someone else's name and location doesn't make it an SBR. And the mere fact it has a >16" bbl doesn't make it an SBR. That stamp (Form 1) was only valid for the previous owner. You'd need your own Form 4 to make the SBR status hold true for you. W/o this and a >16"bbl, I see nothing beyond a title 1 firearm and I doubt 99% of the police force would know any different. Again, not sure if a gun check comes back w/ NFA status.

I understand and agree w/ your "you have already done something to attract unwanted attention" statement.
The stamp is not only valid for the previous owner. It is valid for every owner. That's why its' called an exemption and you're allowed to transfer it to other people on a form 3, 4 or 5. Otherwise, you would not be allowed to sell or will the gun to anyone else. If it was a one shot deal, there would be no form 3's, 4's, or 5's.

The tax was paid, this reciever is allowed to have a short barrel on it.

This is the text at the little checkmark in case you missed it.

Tax Paid. Submit your tax payment of $200
with the application. The tax may be paid
by credit or debit card, check, or money order.
Please complete item 17. Upon approval of
the application, we will affix and cancel the
required National Firearms Act Stamp.
(See instruction 2c and 3)


--------------

You're right that it is perfectly legal to engrave whatever you want on a reciever, however, on a form 1, the information is required now. There's a pretty big difference from the point you are trying to make. CAN engrave and MUST engrave.

While it may not be in short barrel configuration with a 16" or longer barrel, the receiver is still registered as one, just like my point about the machinegun lower, even though it flew over your head.

As for gun checks, the serial number of the gun is going to continue to be in the atf's computer. Regardless of whether it's under your bed or someone elses'.

Don't believe me? Call (304) 616-4550 and give them the serial number of your sbr lower and ask them if it's registered or not?

The entire point of informing them that you are cancelling your tax stamp is to get it out of your name.

It's completely legal to do cancel the stamp. You are right.

But the method to remove it from the registry is a written letter with the serial (maybe make/model) asking them to remove it. Otherwise, they can't read your mind and the gun will always come back to your name because it's registered to you.

Would you sell your car to some guy off the street and not go to the courthouse and sign it over and get the property out of your name? Or would you just hand it over to hobo joe and walk off?

Really, that's the same principle.
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by YugoRPK » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:01 pm

T-Rex wrote: You machinegun example doesn't quite fly. If the receiver is registered, than it's the 3rd hole that makes it the MG, not the trigger. Simply removing the trigger wouldn't remove it from MG status, but, I believe, welding over the 3rd hole or filling in the shelf could.

Nope. First off no one cares about the shelf. Ive got low shelf lowers and they are completely legal as title 1 guns. Its the hole that's the issue. Drill a hole and its a machine gun forever. No welding it up and calling it a title 1 gun legally. Can't be done.

To be an SBR a gun has to be configured as such. Sell someone a receiver by itself or in 16+ plus rifle form even if it has been previously registered as an SBR you are not breaking any laws. If the holder of the receiver then builds an SBR out of it without paperwork in their name they are breaking the law, not you. The engraving makes no difference whatsoever.
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by T-Rex » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:16 am

As I said, I wasn't sure on the MG status, but this was beside the point.

A Form 1 only applies to the maker. This is why a buyer would need a Form 4, if the firearm is to remain on the NFA registry.

If the SBR has a 16"+ bbl, at the time of sale, it would be Title 1 and your proof (either seller or buyer) can be found on the 4473, Item#27.

After this, there is no question to whether the sold item is NFA regulated, regardless of what it was prior.
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by YugoRPK » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:43 am

As a seller you are not required to have proof it was not in SBR status at the time of sale and the only time a 4473 is going to come into play is if it goes through a dealer which in most states will not be required. An SBR registered receiver is just a receiver unless its built into an SBR and a long arm built from a SBR registered receiver is just a long arm.

Not breaking the law is still not breaking the law. People like to do more than is required by law . That is a personal choice.
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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by TornadoTechnologies » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:38 am

We do this all the time. It used to take years to get a reply back but lately, it's been very fast.

Here's a sample template you can use:

Dear Sir/Madam,
Let this hereby serve as notice that the following Short Barreled Rifle:

Serial Number: XYZ123
Manufacturer: Colt
Model: LE6933
Registered to: John Citizen (see attached ATF Form 5320.4)

was returned to Title 1 firearms status via the removal of the 14.5” barrel, and the installation of a 16” barrel.
Additionally, I hereby request that the Short Barreled Rifle be removed from the NFRTR.

Sincerely,

John Citizen
Tornado Technologies
[email protected]
(503) 690-8000

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Re: Remove rifle from sbr status

Post by bwp777 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:43 pm

I did a form 1 on an AK and made it an SBR. I had a fine man want to purchase it so I contacted the ATF and I had to send a letter stating that I no longer wanted it on my trust, a revised copy of said trust and my $200 stamp back. They said it would take up to 3 months to remove so new owner can register.

I know my story is a bit different but this is all I wanted to add. REAL world experience, not hypotheticals

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