When you take your can out?

[slackercruster]

Do you have to carry your trust docs with you or your just the tax stamp.

Has anyone ever asked to see your papers?

[YugoRPK]

Do you have to carry your trust docs with you or your just the tax stamp.

Has anyone ever asked to see your papers?

Just the form 1 or 4. No one has ever asked for my papers but I avoid shooting ranges.

[Artful]

only copies of the tax paid form

[stevejobs]

Never carry the original. Carry a copy. Keep the original in a fire safe at home.

I fold a copy up small and keep them in one of these bags. I label the bags with permanent marker, then just take whatever bag I need for that weapon.

Legally, you must carry paperwork with the weapon (Form 1 or 4, not trust paperwork).

[ick]

Use a good quality ziplock. They make ones that are big enough.

[PSI]

For my silencer, I have a reduced size copy of the Form 4 in the grip of all the rifles I have a mount on. I also carry a copy of the Form 2 for the SBR's that way also. Just in case, for some reason, the regular copies in my bag don't make it out with me.

[M40A1308M]

Maxpedition makes a cool admin pouch that I keep really tiny, but clear laminated copy's. In my state I have only been asked 3 times to show paper work and one of those times I refused. Nothing happened but it sure makes people of authority mad when you say no.

[copenhagen]

stevejobs:

Legally, you must carry paperwork with the weapon (Form 1 or 4, not trust paperwork).

Can you cite that? 1st of all, I think it's a good idea to carry it, but all I read is that the "application shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request." It does not say "shall be immediately made available."

[YugoRPK]

There is no law that says you need to carry paperwork with you or that you need to keep it locked in a safe for that matter.

[continuity]

stevejobs:

Legally, you must carry paperwork with the weapon (Form 1 or 4, not trust paperwork).

Can you cite that? 1st of all, I think it's a good idea to carry it, but all I read is that the "application shall be made available to any ATF officer upon request." It does not say "shall be immediately made available."

From the LEO perspective, if you have occasion to be in contact and have NFA equipment on or about you, most likely some understandings of the legal possession status of the NFA items is gonna come up. It will be up to you, and the specific LEO, what information will do the job. You won't have to show anyone but an ATFA your paperwork, but if asked by local LEO you will need to be able to show legal standing since most NFA items are prohibited by state law. The tax documents are a great way to do that. Cops love paper work. They can relate to it.

If one decides not to show evidence, and the LEO doesn't know how to, nor want to make contact with ATF to check registry compliance, you will probably get a free ride in a cop car, become familiar with the local jails book in process, and get to meet new friends as part of a captive audience. At least until you are able to get things sorted out to the satisfaction of the local legal system

Thinking having a copy of your form 1/4 with you that matches the subject NFA item is the way to go.

Just my 2 cents.

[continuity]

There is no law that says you need to carry paperwork with you or that you need to keep it locked in a safe for that matter.

Subtle.... very subtle.

[copenhagen]

If one decides not to show evidence, and the LEO doesn't know how to, nor want to make contact with ATF to check registry compliance, you will probably get a free ride in a cop car, become familiar with the local jails book in process, and get to meet new friends as part of a captive audience. At least until you are able to get things sorted out to the satisfaction of the local legal system

I said I think it's a good idea to carry your paper work. Ever notice that the saying "ignorance of the law is no excuse" seems to be a one way street?

[continuity]

... Ever notice that the saying "ignorance of the law is no excuse" seems to be a one way street?

Not really.

[copenhagen]

Actually, what you originally stated was a way to take that into account. In your example, the LEO does not know the law, treats the Citizen as though they are guilty until proven innocent, detains them, takes them to jail, etc. Because of potential igornance of an LEO, and the LEO's possible course of action to treat a citizen as guilty until proven innocent, said Citizen would be advised to take measures which, as far as I can tell, are not legal requirements. For the Citizen, not knowing the legality of something is rarely an excuse.

[Bowen1911]

Actually, what you originally stated was a way to take that into account. In your example, the LEO does not know the law, treats the Citizen as though they are guilty until proven innocent, detains them, takes them to jail, etc. Because of potential igornance of an LEO, and the LEO's possible course of action to treat a citizen as guilty until proven innocent, said Citizen would be advised to take measures which, as far as I can tell, are not legal requirements. For the Citizen, not knowing the legality of something is rarely an excuse.

This +1.

A local deputy "knew" that a homemade silencer was illegal, but was fine to buy them. He also "knew" that someone under 21 couldn't be in possession of a handgun, let alone a silencer. I started explaining the laws to him before he could say anything about how he was going to have to take me in, then he took a few steps back, wondering how some (dare I say it) "boneheaded peckerwood" would actually know what they were doing, and not be breaking any laws.

Most LEO's I've ever talked to about NFA seem to get a boner over it and say they can't wait to put aside some money to buy something. The chief that signs for me is more excited than I am.

If Title 2 weapons had less restrictions, and the public knew more than what the TV tells them, then I doubt anyone would have these problems

[copenhagen]

Most LEO's I've ever talked to about NFA seem to get a boner over it and say they can't wait to put aside some money to buy something.

Thankfully, I've noticed quite a bit of this too. I don't know about the whole getting turgid part, but many of the Deputies are excited about anything NFA here in Dixie.

[continuity]

Actually, what you originally stated was a way to take that into account. In your example, the LEO does not know the law, treats the Citizen as though they are guilty until proven innocent, detains them, takes them to jail, etc. Because of potential igornance of an LEO, and the LEO's possible course of action to treat a citizen as guilty until proven innocent, said Citizen would be advised to take measures which, as far as I can tell, are not legal requirements. For the Citizen, not knowing the legality of something is rarely an excuse.

Apologies for my apparent lack of clarity. Deputy Sheriff's, Local cops, and State Police/Troopers, are certified by the State they will have jurisdiction in, and then commissioned by a department in that State. They are responsible for knowing that States law. IIRC, in all states, in my case specifically, Ohio, NFA items are illegal to possess. For some NFA items, an affirmative defense to having such items in your possession, is possesing them in compliance with Federal regulation via a paid Federal tax transfer.

So, if you have NFA items in your possession with no evidence that your possession is "legal", you can be arrested based on probable cause of possessing a restricted item, and you will be able to work it out in the court system. An arrest does not mean guilt, but the arrest can be made. An LEO has no burden to pursue verification that there is evidence of defense at the point of contact. That is the person of interest's responsibility and quite specifically, the purview of the court system.

Having said that, if a person can show an appropriate defense at time of contact, i.e. tax transfer paperwork, and a LEO decides to disregard that defense, the jurisdictions prosecutorial office is going to have an interest in negatively influencing that LEO's career.

Being familiar with ones State Law and local jurisdictions governing firearms/destructive devices is a good idea if one is going to involve themselve in that world. Most are available on line at the state's Attorney Generals web site.

It is what it is. We all make decisions on how close to the edge we chose to walk.

Peace

[copenhagen]

I'm sorry you are stuck in Ohio.

[continuity]

I'm sorry you are stuck in Ohio.

Thanks for your concern.... BTW, it's snowing. I love this place.

[mpallett]

I'm sorry you are stuck in Ohio.

I'm stuck in Massachusetts.

[sgtsmmiii]

Actually, what you originally stated was a way to take that into account. In your example, the LEO does not know the law, treats the Citizen as though they are guilty until proven innocent, detains them, takes them to jail, etc. Because of potential igornance of an LEO, and the LEO's possible course of action to treat a citizen as guilty until proven innocent, said Citizen would be advised to take measures which, as far as I can tell, are not legal requirements. For the Citizen, not knowing the legality of something is rarely an excuse.

Apologies for my apparent lack of clarity. Deputy Sheriff's, Local cops, and State Police/Troopers, are certified by the State they will have jurisdiction in, and then commissioned by a department in that State. They are responsible for knowing that States law. IIRC, in all states, in my case specifically, Ohio, NFA items are illegal to possess. For some NFA items, an affirmative defense to having such items in your possession, is possesing them in compliance with Federal regulation via a paid Federal tax transfer.

So, if you have NFA items in your possession with no evidence that your possession is "legal", you can be arrested based on probable cause of possessing a restricted item, and you will be able to work it out in the court system. An arrest does not mean guilt, but the arrest can be made. An LEO has no burden to pursue verification that there is evidence of defense at the point of contact. That is the person of interest's responsibility and quite specifically, the purview of the court system.

Having said that, if a person can show an appropriate defense at time of contact, i.e. tax transfer paperwork, and a LEO decides to disregard that defense, the jurisdictions prosecutorial office is going to have an interest in negatively influencing that LEO's career.

Being familiar with ones State Law and local jurisdictions governing firearms/destructive devices is a good idea if one is going to involve themselve in that world. Most are available on line at the state's Attorney Generals web site.

It is what it is. We all make decisions on how close to the edge we chose to walk.

Peace

Very well put.

[Ryo]

I was told by my SOT to keep a copy with the suppressor. So I keep a copy in my grip of my AR.

[starlingstalker]

I posted this reply last December on a similar inquiry but it's most still germane today...

My 1st encounter as a SOT in the early 1980s with LEOs was noted and has made an impression since. I had several hundred acres of family farm land in east Texas to demo without any near neighbors. If you are banging away with a new DS Browning BAR and there is a 32 foot flatbed trailer covered end 2 end with blankets and there is enough NFA hardware and supporting ammo in view to outfit several PDs, whom is the 1st 2 show? Well, it's the game warden of course. So after a quickie inspection of the SOT documents and his satisfaction that I was legitimate, he watched us rip off a few more 30-06 mags - told us to be careful and we never saw him again,ever. But, he is STILL out there. When I shot on my property even on large acreage, the sound carries for a mile or 2 at least and it's obvious that the gunfire back then was not the usual quick fire AR-15 in the woods. An unsuppressed powder Springs M-10 with 40 round mags and a pair of American 180s or a Walther MPK or MP-40 tells the neighbors that I'm at it again - as long as the ammo holds out. I was told by visiting deputies that the standard response was that he'll run out of ammo eventually BUT invariably I got called in on regularly and was promptly ignored by the sherrifs office. Sometimes they would come buy just to see what we were shooting.... Could You get out and drink a cup of coffee and burn a freebie mag or 2? mostly for good PR. And sometimes they did........
All my NFA items are copied in a 3 ring binder, I carry double sided laser color copies with a red sharpie "COPY" written strategically right in the middle ( on both sides) whom look near as sharp as the originals which do NOT EVER leave the safe and the standard response is that IF THEY DO my NFA attorney will present those to the LEO/ATF as indicated under major retainer with legal rep./advice BUT hopefully no need to go that far!!! I keep extra color copies strategically placed for quick access with each item. Since "some" LEOS possibly/probably are not familiar with NFA regulations at all on the side of a road per a traffic stop to make snap decisions in error, I would like to suggest that for an extra measure of comfort to placate my general paranoia- I have the official ATF yellow pamphlet publications that list the NFA act in general (ATF contact phone #s for the LEOs are super handy!!!!!) and various MGs/suppressors are pictured with their mandatory $200.00 transfer taxes with SBRs/DDs and AOWs $ 5.00 for their tax, too. See, officer, this is where we're at. Check out my official ATF NFA primer 101= just for You to be informed. Seeeee, perfectly legal...... So,if your house is in order, and Your documentation is in place, no hassles are expected BUT be super ready! Those yellow ATF publications really give me piece of mind for the ignorant and uneducated especially packing a badge. If you can find these publications and have in hand, I would suggest adding a copy to your carry documents for an extra margin of EDUCATED safety. It's mostly about quickie education and sometimes least EXPECTED,You have to be the knowledgeable on the fly NFA teacher.

These additional NFA specific official documents are evidently out of print.
I have 3 different publications 4"x8" 1/2 page pocket size (all have yellow covers).
The oldest publication in my additional NFA documentation is Firearms Identification for Law Enforcement Officers (there is a Treasury Dept badge on the cover with # 666!)
sub titled Department of Treasury/Internal Revenue Service/Alcohol,Tobacco and Firearms Division
publication 674 (Rev.10-69)
Evidently it clarifies the CGA of '68 a bit as the foreword on the inner page states same.
"a visual aid for classification of firearms and destructive devices under title II of the gun control act of 1968"
I wish I could scan the introduction on the next page as it is informative that the NFA firearms "must be registered to be lawfully possessed"...
There are 32 pages of NFA pictures except that the last 2 have ATF offices-adresses and phone numbers

The next booklet is apparently a revision of the prior above but all the NFA foreword and introduction and pictures are the same except for the date
Firearms Identification for Law Enforcement Officers (there is a Treasury Dept badge on the cover with # 666!)
sub titled Department of Treasury/Internal Revenue Service/Alcohol,Tobacco and Firearms Division
publication 674 (Rev.8-70) 32 pages = same

The last one is
40 pages with better pictures.... (has the Seal of the BATF instead)
Identification of Firearms
Within the purview of the National Firearms Act
Department of the Treasury/ATF P 5300.1 (1-75)( formerly IRS publication 674) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
The foreword is the same.
But the introduction takes on a menacing tone that mentions section 5861 that it shall be unlawful for any person.....ect. regulations, ect.... more ect. ALSO it mentions that ALL state, political subdivisions and police departments MUST file a form 10 to keep the firearm for OFFICIAL USE. So,You,too.....
"All unregistered NFA firearms including destructive devices regardless of serviceability are CONTRABAND and are subject to seizure. In addition,any conveyance used to conceal or transport them is subject to seizure and forfeiture under the provisions of the act of August 9, 1939".
Sort of sounds like Nazi Germany as if they got the dates nearly right......

Well, along with my 3 ring binder of laser color copies,I keep these booklets handy for educating the uninformed especially those whom could drag me through the gears of the criminal justice system UNTIL the registrations are indeed found to be valid and a Texas DEFENSE to prosecution after the fact. I'm sure the game warden knew whom I was a long time ago as he drove up all alone and looked it all over and watched for a while as we banged away with a DS BAR and MG 34 and enough hardware to outfit several PDs and then we never saw him again. I had one of those early Treasury books with my SOT then and I'm sure it helped inform Officer Teasdale to make an educated decision on my legitimacy. I'm considering making extra copies if there was a demand? This newest booklet is 35 years old but is still germane as much so today. If there is some interest with feedback for same, I'll get a quote or a run of several dozen copies or maybe a hundred to help support my NFA obsession. If I can figure out how to post a picture of the cover I'll update here,too. Please let me know if anyone has or knows about these official publications if it's eventually worth producing for NFA shooters.

These booklets come in handy for small talk as an inquisitive LEO looks over the various ATF pictures and while I'm explaining the perks of NFA ownership....... yes,that's a $ 200 tax on a Thompson, $5 for an AOW Auto Burglar or Handygun or a Marble Game Getter,$ 200.00 for a destructive device, ect. ect. and I got a strategic friend in the making.....would You like to burn a mag or 2 next weekend..... You can shoot them all if You want.... how about popping that NFA cherry BIG time? Once the "transfer tax" is officially paid it's Your very own personal property and Yours for life!!!! Here's my local Cl.3 dealer and he's got the supR dupR kewlest hardware around and BEST prices, too..... check him out... there's something You knew You ALWAYS wanted.... and You can have REALLY have it.... (after You get over that SMG sticker shock!....) and (You're loaded financially......).
we are our own best ambassadors for spreading this wonderful obsession. The approach and presentation is the key... starlingstalker

[doubloon]

Actually, what you originally stated was a way to take that into account. In your example, the LEO does not know the law, treats the Citizen as though they are guilty until proven innocent, detains them, takes them to jail, etc. Because of potential igornance of an LEO, and the LEO's possible course of action to treat a citizen as guilty until proven innocent, said Citizen would be advised to take measures which, as far as I can tell, are not legal requirements. For the Citizen, not knowing the legality of something is rarely an excuse.

Apologies for my apparent lack of clarity. Deputy Sheriff's, Local cops, and State Police/Troopers, are certified by the State they will have jurisdiction in, and then commissioned by a department in that State. They are responsible for knowing that States law. IIRC, in all states, in my case specifically, Ohio, NFA items are illegal to possess. For some NFA items, an affirmative defense to having such items in your possession, is possesing them in compliance with Federal regulation via a paid Federal tax transfer.

So, if you have NFA items in your possession with no evidence that your possession is "legal", you can be arrested based on probable cause of possessing a restricted item, and you will be able to work it out in the court system. An arrest does not mean guilt, but the arrest can be made. An LEO has no burden to pursue verification that there is evidence of defense at the point of contact. That is the person of interest's responsibility and quite specifically, the purview of the court system.

Having said that, if a person can show an appropriate defense at time of contact, i.e. tax transfer paperwork, and a LEO decides to disregard that defense, the jurisdictions prosecutorial office is going to have an interest in negatively influencing that LEO's career.

Being familiar with ones State Law and local jurisdictions governing firearms/destructive devices is a good idea if one is going to involve themselve in that world. Most are available on line at the state's Attorney Generals web site.

It is what it is. We all make decisions on how close to the edge we chose to walk.

Peace

Very well put.

And dead on accurate. It works the same way in Texas, NFAs are "prohibited weapons".

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... /PE.46.htm