So I am working on my short barreled side by side shotgun project and I need to send in my form, but first I need to decide on barrel length. I am going to make a custom forend and "Pistol" grip for the gun, so I am not limited by length in any sense.
What I want to do is make it have an 8 inch barrel, my question though, is that too short??
If I didn't do 8 inches I would jump to either 9 or 10(max) inches in length. Being what it is I only expect accuracy out as far as about 25-30 feet. So at 25 feet I think 8 inches will be sufficient, however I am open to suggestions on length and accuracy from people who have SBS and experience with that length of a shotgun. Maybe 9 inches is the happy medium??
Hopefully I will figure this out sooner than later so I am not wasting precious NFA time!
Mark out the lengths you are thinking about on the barrel. With the hammers down (if internal) cock the shotgun holding the barrel behind the different length marks. I would choose my minimum based on being able to reload it.
You can always cut the barrels shorter so I'd make it on the longer side first then test drive it. There is NO REASON to put the shortest length you might go on the form. Put what you plan to make, if you decide to go shorter send the ATF a letter with the new length AFTER you change it and in about 6 months you will get a return letter thanking you for keeping the registry accurate. It's not against the law to make your barrel shorter than your form once you have the tax stamp.
-k- wrote:Mark out the lengths you are thinking about on the barrel. With the hammers down (if internal) cock the shotgun holding the barrel behind the different length marks. I would choose my minimum based on being able to reload it.
You can always cut the barrels shorter so I'd make it on the longer side first then test drive it. There is NO REASON to put the shortest length you might go on the form. Put what you plan to make, if you decide to go shorter send the ATF a letter with the new length AFTER you change it and in about 6 months you will get a return letter thanking you for keeping the registry accurate. It's not against the law to make your barrel shorter than your form once you have the tax stamp.
Why bother?
Put 8" on the Form and anything that length or longer is cool.
"Keeping the registry accurate" is not something I really care at all about. "The registry" shouldn't even exist.
Late to the NFA party, but makin' up for lost time....
garandman wrote:Put 8" on the Form and anything that length or longer is cool.
No, it's not. The line directly above where you sign that starts out "Under Penalties of Perjury..."
Sure, it would be hard to prove (unless you posted it on the Internet) but there is no down side to putting what you currently intend to build on your F1, even if you think you might want to go shorter in the future.
Let me try this again. You have a registered SBS with a barrel 17.9" and your forms also have 17.9" for the barrel length. Cutting the barrel of your registered SBS down to 3" is perfectly legal and you don't have to ask permission of the ATF before you do. The ATF requests you notify them of changes to the weapon but there is no requirement to notify them. The idea that a registered SBS/SBR cannot be shorter than the paperwork is flat out wrong.
garandman wrote:Put 8" on the Form and anything that length or longer is cool.
No, it's not. The line directly above where you sign that starts out "Under Penalties of Perjury..."
Sure, it would be hard to prove (unless you posted it on the Internet) but there is no down side to putting what you currently intend to build on your F1, even if you think you might want to go shorter in the future.
Let me try this again. You have a registered SBS with a barrel 17.9" and your forms also have 17.9" for the barrel length. Cutting the barrel of your registered SBS down to 3" is perfectly legal and you don't have to ask permission of the ATF before you do. The ATF requests you notify them of changes to the weapon but there is no requirement to notify them. The idea that a registered SBS/SBR cannot be shorter than the paperwork is flat out wrong.
You contradict yourself.
Re-read youself and see if you can see where you contradict yourself.
Hint: If you are gonna cite the perjury statute, then you CANNOT state one thing on your Form 1, and then build anything you want.
Late to the NFA party, but makin' up for lost time....
garandman wrote:Put 8" on the Form and anything that length or longer is cool.
No, it's not. The line directly above where you sign that starts out "Under Penalties of Perjury..."
Sure, it would be hard to prove (unless you posted it on the Internet) but there is no down side to putting what you currently intend to build on your F1, even if you think you might want to go shorter in the future.
Let me try this again. You have a registered SBS with a barrel 17.9" and your forms also have 17.9" for the barrel length. Cutting the barrel of your registered SBS down to 3" is perfectly legal and you don't have to ask permission of the ATF before you do. The ATF requests you notify them of changes to the weapon but there is no requirement to notify them. The idea that a registered SBS/SBR cannot be shorter than the paperwork is flat out wrong.
You contradict yourself.
Re-read youself and see if you can see where you contradict yourself.
Hint: If you are gonna cite the perjury statute, then you CANNOT state one thing on your Form 1, and then build anything you want.
You both need to re-read eachothers posts, they both make sense and you two clearly have 2 different opinions, shocking. That said, I agree with -k- I have talked to 3 people at the NFA about this very topic and you absolutely can put down what you want as -k-'s post suggested and IF you make an alteration the ATF just wants you to notify them of the change in writing(Now -k-'s example 17.9" -> 3" is a little extreme, I would be worried about making that much of an alteration without notifying the NFA). I respect the law and don't want a guaranteed 10 year sentence in prison because I got lazy. So I put 9" on the form as that is what I finally figured would be best for me, IF I choose to change the length all they ask is that I write to them notifying them of the alteration and in about 6 months they will send you a confirmation back.
The whole NFA topic is like all types of litigation, it is written in a way that can be easily twisted to one side or the other, so I can see that you both are correct in your own way.
So on a happy note, I just submitted a $200 tax stamp today, lets see how long it takes!!
I did not contradict myself. In my example the SBS I start with has the barrel AND forms with the SAME length. So the SBS was built to the same length as the F1.
I could have bought the SBS on a F4, or built it with a F1 (to the length I had on the F1), doesn't matter. I posses a properly registered, tax paid SBS but NOW I want an even shorter barrel. I can shorten the barrel to any length I please, without forms or permission from the ATF. There is no law against making an SBS a "shorter" SBS, as it remains a properly registered, tax paid SBS.
Again, the idea that a registered SBS/SBR cannot be shorter than the paperwork is flat out wrong. It's a commonly held myth but wrong.
Todd has it right about the paperwork and firearm matching...
My SBS SxS has 11" barrels. I do like it, but it is big. I am thinking of going to 8", but I built it to replicate the one from Roadwarrior. 8" shold be a good size. Any smaller and you will be past the forend locking lug if you are talking about a double.
garandman wrote:Does ATF re-paper (Form 1) the gun with the "new" bbl length? No, they do not.
What does this reply letter from ATF actually say? Does is associate the serial # with the new length / caliber / etc?
It says " Thank you for keeping the registry up to date."
No, it makes no ref. but you did when you sent them your info.
So then the controlling legal document for the SBS says you got the original length gun, not the modified length.
I still say put the shortest length you might go, and then don't bother "updating the registry." The tax stamp will always have the original length you initially filed. I am quite sure ATF will not bust your chops for having a LONGER gun than what the tax stamp says. For instance, it is no legal violation to put a 20" bbl on a SBS - and the gun will remain an SBS even with the longer bbl. They only care about 1 length - the legal minimum for a Title 1 gun.
Feel free to show me either case law or statute that says otherwise.
Late to the NFA party, but makin' up for lost time....
There is no restriction on having a barrel shorter than the length it was registered at. So there is no logical reason to put a barrel length other than what you intend to build on your F1.
Also your SBS would not be an SBS with 20" barrel, unless OAL was less than 26", it no longer meets the definition of a SBS.
-k- wrote:There is no restriction on having a barrel shorter than the length it was registered at. So there is no logical reason to put a barrel length other than what you intend to build on your F1.
I agree, except in the case stated by the OP. He doesn't know what length he wants. In that case, I still beleive the best option is to list it as short as you might possibly go. And if it ends up something other than how you filed the Form 1, then your statement above applies - "There is no restriction on having a barrel shorter than the length it was registered at."
SO the heck with "updating the registry."
Also your SBS would not be an SBS with 20" barrel, unless OAL was less than 26", it no longer meets the definition of a SBS.
Once that serial # is registered as a SBS, its a SBS regardless of bbl / overall length. The gun cannot be sold w/o a tax stamp unless its removed from the registry, which can be done by letter request. (This infornmation is obtained by a specific request for finding I made to ATF.)
Late to the NFA party, but makin' up for lost time....
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