14" mossberg pgo not nfa?

[1mobum]

Saw this on another site. Says "new" ATF ruling? Did I miss something?

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

Am I correct in my assumption that this guy is a tool?

[47_MasoN_47]

There's been a lot of argument over this at another forum I frequent. It sounds like there is a legitimate loophole for a 14" PGO shotgun, but I personally would not be willing to risk it. It's not worth $5/$200 and a few months waiting time to risk years in prison.

[Libertarian_Geek]

I take exception to the term loophole. The method used to get the Hughes amendment codified into law was a loophole. This isn't a loophole (overused and misused term). This is a potential oversight by those trying to infringe on the 2nd amendment rights.

[rogerme]

While I would not want to try it myself the letter from the ATF says he submitted a mossberg pistol grip ( never was stocked ) shotgun with a 17 inch barrel and they say clearly it is NOT a NFA item. The major problem dealing with the atf is they are so arbitrary in there decision making.

[PTK]

My worry is that things like this, if they become common, could be marked as a "DD". How shitty would it be if ALL PGO shotguns were declared DDs?

[Libertarian_Geek]

My worry is that things like this, if they become common, could be marked as a "DD". How shitty would it be if ALL PGO shotguns were declared DDs?

Now that would truly suck.

[1mobum]

Yea figured it was bullshit. I wouldn't do it any way as I have a couple mossberg stocks just sit'n around. Assumed this guy was just an asshat wanna be kwiknsue.

Never though about it being a DD man. PGO shotgun with a know sidewinder would make some demorats s--t the bed.

[Bendersquint]

My worry is that things like this, if they become common, could be marked as a "DD". How shitty would it be if ALL PGO shotguns were declared DDs?

How would it be a DD? Are you linking the StreetSweeper to a pistol grip only shotgun? That like calling a Glock a MG because it has a hi cap magazine.....

[PTK]

How would it be a DD? Are you linking the StreetSweeper to a pistol grip only shotgun? That like calling a Glock a MG because it has a hi cap magazine.....

No, I was thinking more along the lines of it being over .50" bore. Seeing that the law says the following...

Any projectile weapon with a bore diameter greater than 1⁄2 inch (50 caliber), except for shotguns "generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes".

...I don't see how this is anywhere outside the realm of current possibilities.


...well, unless the BATFE decides that a 14" barrel, 26.5" OAL 12ga PGO shotgun is "generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes".

[Bendersquint]

How would it be a DD? Are you linking the StreetSweeper to a pistol grip only shotgun? That like calling a Glock a MG because it has a hi cap magazine.....

No, I was thinking more along the lines of it being over .50" bore. Seeing that the law says the following...

Any projectile weapon with a bore diameter greater than 1⁄2 inch (50 caliber), except for shotguns "generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes".

...I don't see how this is anywhere outside the realm of current possibilities.


...well, unless the BATFE decides that a 14" barrel, 26.5" OAL 12ga PGO shotgun is "generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes".

The over .50" bore limitation is for RIFLED BORES not smoothbores. ATF has been clear about that for years in this regard that it relates to rifled bores ONLY.

So if the Mossberg 14" is a rifled bore then its a DD, if not then its just a shotgun, only thing I am interested in seeing is if they declare it an AOW or SBS(depending on the receiver it started as)

[-k-]

It's not really new, same thing as a Mossberg 500 with pistol grip. An AOW must actually be concealed or "concealable".
ATF holds Concealable as less than 26" OAL, so at 26.5" it's not an AOW.
By legal definition a shotgun is designed to be fired from the shoulder, so no stock, no SBS.

My worry is that things like this, if they become common, could be marked as a "DD". How shitty would it be if ALL PGO shotguns were declared DDs?

It would create a huge number of people interested in, or better put pissed about the NFA. Who doesn't know someone with one of those PG Mossberg 500's?

[PTK]

The over .50" bore limitation is for RIFLED BORES not smoothbores. ATF has been clear about that for years in this regard that it relates to rifled bores ONLY.

Do you have letters showing that DDs are only DDs if rifled? They have repeatedly changed opinions and I do try to collect letters.


Anyway, the law seems quite clear:

(f) Destructive device

The term “destructive device” means

...

(2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/26/5845%28f%29.html

I see nothing in that saying smooth or rifled bore. If anything over .50" that isn't rifled isn't a DD, why are rocket launchers registered? Why are mortars registered? The rocket or missile or bomb is very clearly a DD, but even just the tube is a DD too. The only exception in that section is for shotguns or shotgun shells that are found to be "generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes", which I don't see happening for the shotguns in question.


ALL that aside, the NFA just wasn't written for this! It's not a shotgun, it's a firearm. It's not a weapon made from a shotgun, it never was a shotgun. It can't be an AOW, since the definition of DD fits more precisely and 26.5" isn't "concealable". Basically, as far as I can tell, it's a massive clusterfuck.

[Bendersquint]

I see nothing in that saying smooth or rifled bore. If anything over .50" that isn't rifled isn't a DD, why are rocket launchers registered? Why are mortars registered? The rocket or missile or bomb is very clearly a DD, but even just the tube is a DD too. The only exception in that section is for shotguns or shotgun shells that are found to be "generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes", which I don't see happening for the shotguns in question.


ALL that aside, the NFA just wasn't written for this! It's not a shotgun, it's a firearm. It's not a weapon made from a shotgun, it never was a shotgun. It can't be an AOW, since the definition of DD fits more precisely and 26.5" isn't "concealable". Basically, as far as I can tell, it's a massive clusterfuck.

Taking it to the extreme now PTK, comparing a rocket launcher or a mortar to a shotgun, really?

Rockets are registered because it uses a propellant charge and the explosives. Its classified as a explosive device under destructive devices.

ATF Industry operations states the .50" bore limitation is for centerfire cartridges not for smooth bore shotguns. I have called several times and thats the answer i get everytime. This is over the span of years.

[LawBob]

Better check your state laws as well.

In Tx, an illegal weapon includes a shotgun with barrel less than 18", rifle with barrel less than 16", or weapon made from shotgun with overall length less than 26".

A shotgun is not defined.

Under fed law, Shotgun is fired from shoulder, and the pistol grip factory scatterguns are Just "firearms" (not rifles or pistols either)

He Texas law would seem to allow for this non nfa 14" barreled but 26" mossberg...

[PTK]

Rockets are registered because it uses a propellant charge and the explosives.

Dummy rounds are not DDs, but the launcher/tube still is even though it's smooth bore. The "shotgun" in question, under the current NFA regulations, isn't a shotgun and seems to fall squarely under either DD or sporting shotgun. Given that those are the two options, I don't see how it's an extreme comparison at all. After all, if it weren't for the sporting purposes and over .50 bore regulations, rocket launchers, mortars, etc., would be legal and only the rounds would be taxed.

[LawBob]

(10) “Short-barrel firearm” means a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.



Case law seems to suggest that the 26" length is dispositive

Vasquez v. State, 649 S.W.2d 647 (Tex. App- Corpus Christi 1982, pet ref’d) Rifle that has barrel and stock sawn off does not thereby become a pistol. “The definition referred to the design of the weapon, not to its present state after modifications.”

Ford v. State, 868 S.W.2d 875 (Tex. App.-Houston [14th District] 1994) “The mere fact that a weapon may be defined as a handgun does not disqualify it from also being a short- barrel firearm. A weapon under twenty-six inches in length adapted from a shotgun makes it a short-barrel firearm regardless of whether it can be fired with one hand.”

Lewis v. State, 852 S.W.2d 667 (Tex. App.-Houston [14th District] 1993) No requirement that short-barrel firearm be operable.

[LawBob]

The ford case above focuses exclusively on the overall length of the shotgun (under 26") not the length of the barrel
http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?pa ... SizeDisp=7

[Bendersquint]

Dummy rounds are not DDs, but the launcher/tube still is even though it's smooth bore. The "shotgun" in question, under the current NFA regulations, isn't a shotgun and seems to fall squarely under either DD or sporting shotgun. Given that those are the two options, I don't see how it's an extreme comparison at all. After all, if it weren't for the sporting purposes and over .50 bore regulations, rocket launchers, mortars, etc., would be legal and only the rounds would be taxed.

What is a dummy round? A dummy round is non functioning, it does nothing to include not being launched, are you talking non high explosive projectiles. Its still a projectile being launched from a bore over .50" that was classified as a destructive device.

M203's are rifled tubes too so grenade launchers fall under DD's regardless the fact of the explosive aspect.

Streetsweeper was classified as a destructive device due to the hi capacity and volume of fire it could fire and the ATF found absolutely no sporting purpose for it at all.

[FSCJedi]

Wait... so is this "shotgun" legit or not? Sounds like an interesting option since that's the exact setup I want anyway (with that grip, I mean).