AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

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LeftEyeMike
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AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by LeftEyeMike » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:03 am

Hello every one,
I just got my stamp back the other day. :o :D on my form 1 build, a 9" 300BLK ar-15.
I am making my AR-15 SBR based off a Stag Arms AR-15 lower marked for 5.56, I have the lower engraved with my name,city, and state.

On my form 1 in box 4C I listed my caliber as 300BLK.
From my understanding, I need to engrave on some part of the rifle (lower, barrel, or upper) , the 300BLK caliber designation. Am I correct?

Furthermore as I understand it, the engraving must be in plain view, that would preclude a caliber engraving on my barrel, which would be under my free float hand rail (rail covers almost the entire barrel, with just enough exposed to mount a flash hider). Correct?

If this is true, where would be the best place to engrave?
I am thinking the right side of the upper ( upper is a left hand mirror image of a standard AR-15 upper) would be the ideal location, as I don't want to have the lower, re-engraved, for aesthetic and practical reasons.

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Bendersquint
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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:24 am

Congrats on your new stamp!

You need to engrave your full name, city and state.

You don't need to engrave 300BLK on it.

Your receiver is the SBR not your barrel. Does your barrel have the serial number you registered the SBR as on it? NO, your receiver did. That's why you have to engrave there!

Engrave your information on the lower receiver on the opposite side of the magwell.

Alot of uninformed people will argue that you can do the barrel but take a second and think about it this way, if you engrave the barrel then you can ONLY ever use that barrel on the registered SBRperiod. If you engrave the receiver(like you are supposed to per ATF) then you can throw on a 9mm or 223 or 7.62x39 or 22lr upper and not be in violation because you didn't engrave the registered item.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by LeftEyeMike » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:42 am

Thank you for the reply.

The lower receiver is engraved as per the ATF, with my full name, city and state, just like you describe, on the opposite side of the mag well from the manufactures marks.

I was un-shure if my upper which, has no engravings, not even caliber, as far as I know, needed to be engraved with the caliber that i have listed on my form 1. I figured it ( my upper) didn't need to have my name, city and state.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by Bendersquint » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:50 am

LeftEyeMike wrote:Thank you for the reply.

The lower receiver is engraved as per the ATF, with my full name, city and state, just like you describe, on the opposite side of the mag well from the manufactures marks.

I was un-shure if my upper which, has no engravings, not even caliber, as far as I know, needed to be engraved with the caliber that i have listed on my form 1. I figured it ( my upper) didn't need to have my name, city and state.
In all honesty..... who cares about the upper, the ATF doesn't so long as you have the registered barrel and if there is a permanent change then the ATF wants to know.

You don't need to engrave the upper, a quick inspection will confirm or deny the caliber.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by LeftEyeMike » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:58 am

That is sound reasoning.

Once again thank you. Now i just need to get my check off to Aaron, for my upper.

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TEXMEX
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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by TEXMEX » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:17 am

Bendersquint wrote:Congrats on your new stamp!

You need to engrave your full name, city and state.

You don't need to engrave 300BLK on it.

Your receiver is the SBR not your barrel. Does your barrel have the serial number you registered the SBR as on it? NO, your receiver did. That's why you have to engrave there!

Engrave your information on the lower receiver on the opposite side of the magwell.

Alot of uninformed people will argue that you can do the barrel but take a second and think about it this way, if you engrave the barrel then you can ONLY ever use that barrel on the registered SBRperiod. If you engrave the receiver(like you are supposed to per ATF) then you can throw on a 9mm or 223 or 7.62x39 or 22lr upper and not be in violation because you didn't engrave the registered item.
What about frame, receiver, or barrel don't you understand? Why does Remington engrave their information (name, city and state) on the barrel of their factory 870 SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUNS?

Per the ATF: (2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain additional information.

The receiver is not the SBR. The Short Barreled RIFLE is the complete firearm. Remove the short barrel and you no longer have a short barreled rifle.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by TEXMEX » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:24 am

All of this is covered in:

NFA, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53
THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT
TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53 INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... ndix-a.pdf

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:45 am

TEXMEX wrote:All of this is covered in:

NFA, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53
THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT
TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53 INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... ndix-a.pdf
I am well aware of the NFA regulations, I deal with them everyday.

When I asked the ATF for clarification they came back and said that if the barrel is easily removable then the receiver needs to be engraved. If the barrel is fixed like and AK or an HK any part can be engraved hence the wording "frame, receiver or barrel".

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by TEXMEX » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:18 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
TEXMEX wrote:All of this is covered in:

NFA, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53
THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT
TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53 INTERNAL REVENUE CODE

http://www.atf.gov/publications/downloa ... ndix-a.pdf
I am well aware of the NFA regulations, I deal with them everyday.

When I asked the ATF for clarification they came back and said that if the barrel is easily removable then the receiver needs to be engraved. If the barrel is fixed like and AK or an HK any part can be engraved hence the wording "frame, receiver or barrel".
So the "ATF said"? There is nothing in the Gun Control Act of 1968 or the National Firearms Act that says anything about easily removed barrels. What about the Remington 870 factory short barreled shotguns? The name, city and state is on the barrel. Is Remington in violation of The "ATF said"?

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by TEXMEX » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:30 pm

To follow up on this, the marking requirements for Title I firearms is the same as Title II firearms. How many firearms with "easily removed barrels" are there? Look at the plethora of shot guns with "easily removed barrels" that have name, city and state on the barrel. There are many more firearms out there like this. These markings are in conflict with "The ATF said".

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by rockman96 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:44 pm

TEXMEX wrote:These markings are in conflict with "The ATF said".
You shouldn't argue with him....he is an expert in his own mind. :lol:

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:30 pm

rockman96 wrote:
TEXMEX wrote:These markings are in conflict with "The ATF said".
You shouldn't argue with him....he is an expert in his own mind. :lol:
Yeah its futile, I will go based on what my ATF Industry Operations specialist says.

As an industry member myself what they say goes. Anyone that has been around the ATF for a day knows that all the things in documentation are generic statements and further clarification is required for almost everything. This topic is the most often brought up anyways.

If only the ATF rules were as simple as reading them from the book, there are variations to all the rules. If non-industry Joe'se had any idea at how many variances are issued they wouldn't even bother looking at the regs.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by rockman96 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:54 pm

Generally, I have to go with I see in black and white and it's interpretation. That said, I'm not sure why anyone would actually *want* to engrave their upper/barrel instead of the lower. At the end of the day it's all a moot point for me anyway....I will engrave any lower that I do on a F1. But then this topic also brings up something else: leaving aside the possibility that the ATF might be after someone for whatever reason (in this case it doesn't matter who you are or what they have on you), will they hold a SOT/dealer under a tighter scrutiny on this sort of thing than than they would an individual stamp holder.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:01 pm

rockman96 wrote:Generally, I have to go with I see in black and white and it's interpretation. That said, I'm not sure why anyone would actually *want* to engrave their upper/barrel instead of the lower. At the end of the day it's all a moot point for me anyway....I will engrave any lower that I do on a F1. But then this topic also brings up something else: leaving aside the possibility that the ATF might be after someone for whatever reason (in this case it doesn't matter who you are or what they have on you), will they hold a SOT/dealer under a tighter scrutiny on this sort of thing than than they would an individual stamp holder.
An individual can claim a certain level of naivete and get a slap on the wrist and told to fix it or else.

An SOT is expected to know the laws(since they are in the business afterall), has tons of resources to get answers and expected to follow them as advised, there is no being naive for an SOT, if they do something wrong depending on what it is you can lose your license or get charges filed, and in turn lose their license anyways.

A 07/02 manufacturer will be held to higher standards than an 01/03 dealer.

I haven't seen hardly a thing in the NFA Handbook that doesn't warrant further clarification. The NFA Handbook is written along the lines of a "Dummies guide" type book.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by TEXMEX » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:38 pm

Bendersquint wrote:
rockman96 wrote:
TEXMEX wrote:These markings are in conflict with "The ATF said".
You shouldn't argue with him....he is an expert in his own mind. :lol:
Yeah its futile, I will go based on what my ATF Industry Operations specialist says.

As an industry member myself what they say goes. Anyone that has been around the ATF for a day knows that all the things in documentation are generic statements and further clarification is required for almost everything. This topic is the most often brought up anyways.

If only the ATF rules were as simple as reading them from the book, there are variations to all the rules. If non-industry Joe'se had any idea at how many variances are issued they wouldn't even bother looking at the regs.
Please explain how there are thousands upon thousands (more like millions) of Title I and Title II firearms that are marked in contradiction to what your "ATF Industry Operations specialist says". Contradicts written law (not ATF rules).

rockman96, I agree with you. I'm also not sure why anyone would actually *want* to engrave their upper/barrel instead of the lower. But it can and is done. To say anything to the contrary is just wrong and flies in the face of written law and established industry practice. Examples have been given and ignored. Anyway, I have better things to do than argue on the internet, this horse is dead.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by Bendersquint » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:48 pm

TEXMEX wrote: Please explain how there are thousands upon thousands (more like millions) of Title I and Title II firearms that are marked in contradiction to what your "ATF Industry Operations specialist says". Contradicts written law (not ATF rules).

rockman96, I agree with you. I'm also not sure why anyone would actually *want* to engrave their upper/barrel instead of the lower. But it can and is done. To say anything to the contrary is just wrong and flies in the face of written law and established industry practice. Examples have been given and ignored. Anyway, I have better things to do than argue on the internet, this horse is dead.
Industry practices vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. It's called "marking variances". I don't know a manufacturer that doesn't have variances!

Industry operations has the final say and they haven't steered me wrong yet and they answer promptly.

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Re: AR-15 SBR, engraving question.

Post by SRM » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:57 am

TEXMEX wrote:To follow up on this, the marking requirements for Title I firearms is the same as Title II firearms. How many firearms with "easily removed barrels" are there? Look at the plethora of shot guns with "easily removed barrels" that have name, city and state on the barrel. There are many more firearms out there like this. These markings are in conflict with "The ATF said".
I`ve never seen a firearm with the sn on the barrel unless it was a pistol, but it was also on the slide and frame.

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