NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

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sasigarmorer
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NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by sasigarmorer » Tue May 08, 2012 2:05 pm

I've searched around and found plenty of pro's and cons concerning the DIY approach using an attorney. The trouble is, most of the problems associated with the 'quicken' approach concern the legal ramifications of passing on the items to an heir.

I'm married with no kids. I don't currently have any siblings (or any other family) that would be interested in silencers (which is all I'm planning on purchasing).

The reason I'm going the trust route is because the CLEO here (bexar county, TX) will not sign off on silencers.

Basically, my trust would only involve myself and my wife (as heir/co-trustee) for now.

Given my particular situation, is it really worth it to pay $600 for an NFA-specific trust, when the worth of the trust items will likely never exceed $3K?

TIA

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by Bendersquint » Tue May 08, 2012 3:32 pm

sasigarmorer wrote:I've searched around and found plenty of pro's and cons concerning the DIY approach using an attorney. The trouble is, most of the problems associated with the 'quicken' approach concern the legal ramifications of passing on the items to an heir.

I'm married with no kids. I don't currently have any siblings (or any other family) that would be interested in silencers (which is all I'm planning on purchasing).

The reason I'm going the trust route is because the CLEO here (bexar county, TX) will not sign off on silencers.

Basically, my trust would only involve myself and my wife (as heir/co-trustee) for now.

Given my particular situation, is it really worth it to pay $600 for an NFA-specific trust, when the worth of the trust items will likely never exceed $3K?

TIA
Get Quicken Will Maker version that has Revocable Living Trusts and follow the directions.

The only people that make it a problem(and make noise about it on the internet) are the lawyers because they lose out every time someone uses QWM.

I would love to see some of the Quicken problems you mention, there have been thousands if not tens of thousands or more Quicken Will Maker trusts out there and never a problem.

Save the money and buy a better silencer or a few cases of ammo to burn through it(or send it to me to have it jailbroken if you buy a sealed can!)

.02

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by dtom29 » Wed May 09, 2012 2:26 pm

A BIG +1

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by TEXMEX » Thu May 10, 2012 11:21 pm

sasigarmorer wrote:I've searched around and found plenty of pro's and cons concerning the DIY approach using an attorney. The trouble is, most of the problems associated with the 'quicken' approach concern the legal ramifications of passing on the items to an heir.

I'm married with no kids. I don't currently have any siblings (or any other family) that would be interested in silencers (which is all I'm planning on purchasing).

The reason I'm going the trust route is because the CLEO here (bexar county, TX) will not sign off on silencers.

Basically, my trust would only involve myself and my wife (as heir/co-trustee) for now.

Given my particular situation, is it really worth it to pay $600 for an NFA-specific trust, when the worth of the trust items will likely never exceed $3K?

Doesn't work that way.

TIA

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by urban assault » Fri May 11, 2012 6:18 am

I was in the same situation(just my wife getting my weapon when I croak) when I decided to go for my SBR AK-74.

I went with Quicken and never looked back. Got my stamp back in 54 days with no problems. Cost me about $30 for Quicken from Amazon.com, and $10 to get it notarized.

I know the 2008 version of Quicken does revocable trusts because that's what I used, I'm unsure about the later years though.

Cheers.

-urban

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Fri May 11, 2012 9:02 am

sasigarmorer wrote:I've searched around and found plenty of pro's and cons concerning the DIY approach using an attorney. The trouble is, most of the problems associated with the 'quicken' approach concern the legal ramifications of passing on the items to an heir.

I'm married with no kids. I don't currently have any siblings (or any other family) that would be interested in silencers (which is all I'm planning on purchasing).

The reason I'm going the trust route is because the CLEO here (bexar county, TX) will not sign off on silencers.

Basically, my trust would only involve myself and my wife (as heir/co-trustee) for now.

Given my particular situation, is it really worth it to pay $600 for an NFA-specific trust, when the worth of the trust items will likely never exceed $3K?

TIA
Dad, is that you? :lol:

Seriously though. I read this a lot where folks are married and say that the only reason they're going the trust route is because their CLEO won't sign. If you're married, then that should be a huge reason to use a trust. What if you leave a range bag in your wife's car and she gets pulled over? There's other scenarios that could put your wife in possession of your NFA items without you present. If transferred to you (the individual), she would be violating the law. Trust trust trust, all the way.

Quicken Willmaker trust user right here by the way. (and my CLEO loves to sign)
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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by diverge » Wed May 16, 2012 12:27 am

I'm in the same situation. Mailed my Form 1 with trust for my first NFA item yesterday.

I'm in Harris County, TX and CLEO also does not sign off either. Just the wife and no kids. No family that I want to pass NFA items off to. I did a shared trust with my wife. Just went to Fry's and bought the version of Quicken Willmaker that said on the box it included trust software. It is a second disk.

Contacted a few lawyers that specialize in NFA trusts in the Houston area and informed them of my situation. I want one NFA receiver and it is just my wife and I. Like you, I found they wanted too much.

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by Jt.kline19 » Wed May 16, 2012 2:40 am

I didn't use quicken will maker, I used some brand called My Attorney. I haven't had a problem, I would rather go software route, I always liked hearing the whole invalid trust story, but anyone with Google skills can look it up and only find talk about it on forums, and guntrustlawyer.com. The trust route is definitely the way to go
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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by PyroGuy » Mon May 21, 2012 1:36 pm

Interesting........
SO - When the NFA trust attorneys make reference to horror stories of people doing it themselves, are any of the stories true? We used (My wife and Myself) LegalZoom to do our wills, and they both passed muster when an estate-planning attorney reviewed them.
As a Pyrotechnician, I try to discourage people from making their own Fireworks, as I've seen some very bad outcomes. That said, it CAN be done safely, and CAN be done by smart and careful individuals.
Maybe this is a similar situation.
Now I feel like an idiot for not doing a trust on my last form 4

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by tepin » Thu May 31, 2012 6:19 pm

I have a wife and no kids but decided to use an attorney because I am paranoid. For $199.00 I thought it was a fair deal.
http://nevadaguntrustattorney.com/

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by Bendersquint » Thu May 31, 2012 6:28 pm

PyroGuy wrote:Interesting........
SO - When the NFA trust attorneys make reference to horror stories of people doing it themselves, are any of the stories true? We used (My wife and Myself) LegalZoom to do our wills, and they both passed muster when an estate-planning attorney reviewed them.
As a Pyrotechnician, I try to discourage people from making their own Fireworks, as I've seen some very bad outcomes. That said, it CAN be done safely, and CAN be done by smart and careful individuals.
Maybe this is a similar situation.
Now I feel like an idiot for not doing a trust on my last form 4
I know I posted a response to this before, not sure where it went. :roll:

I have never seen documentation on a single horror story they reference, even when asked they never provide any type of proof.

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by ick » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:05 am

I personally know of one story involving a "self written" trust. It wasn't a firearm trust mind you... it held other assets. A few hundred would have not only avoided what became a problem later... but the guy probably would have gotten some good advice from any attorney with even the most basic knowledge. Not only was there a problem, but the trust likely didn't do what he really intended.

The consequences weren't only with an error. The author of the self-written trust didn't have the knowledge to know his other options.

A mistake you make is one problem.
The things you don't even know about is the other.

A wise man knows his own limitations and gets someone involved that knows better. Personally this is why I don't do my own automobile repairs. Not only can someone do the repairs faster and more effectual than I can, they will probably recognize other problems I would miss.... and will understand opportunities and options that I have zero chance of even knowing exist. I will jsut go sell some more insurance and PAY someone that can do the repairs. Everyone wins.

Here THIS SHOULD CLEAR IT UP.

http://youtu.be/Sq5mQLArjmo
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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by sillycon » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:55 am

Though many NFA attorneys may be smoke blowers, the fact still remains that few of us would represent ourselves in any sort of court proceeding. Given that, why would you force your heirs to be represented by you in probate/estate proceedings, or potentially even a criminal proceeding should there be an issue with your trust?

I can't fathom why someone who would drop tens of thousands on NFA firearms would try and save $300 on the legal document that facilitates their ownership of those items.

It's just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:39 am

sillycon wrote:Though many NFA attorneys may be smoke blowers, the fact still remains that few of us would represent ourselves in any sort of court proceeding. Given that, why would you force your heirs to be represented by you in probate/estate proceedings, or potentially even a criminal proceeding should there be an issue with your trust?

I can't fathom why someone who would drop tens of thousands on NFA firearms would try and save $300 on the legal document that facilitates their ownership of those items.

It's just cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I spent $450 on a magic amulet of nfa legal protection and good luck. I can't fathom why someone who would drop tens of thousands on NFA firearms and $300 on a lawyer would try and save $450 on a magic amulet that facilitates their ownership of those items.

I'm not just being a smart-ass, I'm pointing out that folks like to understand the "what does it really do for me" part before spending their hard earned money. Otherwise, it's just like the proverbial magic amulet to repel tigers. When I buy an NFA item, it's pretty clear what it does. It goes bang and generates an immediate smile. When I pay a lawyer for something that I could do for < $40, it makes me sad. If you're saying that a lawyer ($300) is better(than my $40 expenditure), then show me the data that says it's $240 better. Otherwise, you're just flapping your gums (keys in this case) in support your own decision(s).
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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by sillycon » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:48 pm

Why is a $20,000 RR M16 $9000 "better" than a $11,000 RR AR-15?

Just because the benefit isn't tangible to you doesn't mean there isn't one.

1) No schedule A
2) Custom drafted to meet your needs
3) No "unfunded" issues
4) Legal support in the event of an issue

Just because I don't NEED an airbag (in my car) every day doesn't mean I should buy a cheaper/older car that doesn't have them.

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by ick » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:50 pm

I agree with you LG. My personal experience was enough to show me the importance of getting an attorney, especially one I know is competent. Having gone through the process I feel confident in my choice as being wise.

To each his own. For me, the evidence was clear and the choice easy.
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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:58 pm

sillycon wrote:Why is a $20,000 RR M16 $9000 "better" than a $11,000 RR AR-15?

Just because the benefit isn't tangible to you doesn't mean there isn't one.

1) No schedule A
2) Custom drafted to meet your needs
3) No "unfunded" issues
4) Legal support in the event of an issue

Just because I don't NEED an airbag (in my car) every day doesn't mean I should buy a cheaper/older car that doesn't have them.
Who provides you with legal support if there is an issue? 2 of the NFA gun trust attorneys that are pretty popular won't be rushing to your side(without another set of fees due).

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:04 pm

Just because the benefit isn't tangible to you doesn't mean there isn't one.
Right.. Something doesn't have to be tangible to have value. It does have to be an actual attribute. Be it additional market value, risk mitigation, additional features, additional durability, etc. Specifically, the value has be one that is given by the individual. ick's statement said it: "to each his own."

If someone wants to convince me to pay a lawyer for a trust, then they need to convince me that I should place value equal to or greater than the cost. You won't convince me with spooky generalities. I'd love to hear some actual stories, see some actual legal issues with a QW trust.

Sorry, but I'm a scientist at heart, so anecdotes and fudd don't drive my behavior. Observable reality does.
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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by Bendersquint » Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:22 pm

Libertarian_Geek wrote:
Just because the benefit isn't tangible to you doesn't mean there isn't one.
Right.. Something doesn't have to be tangible to have value. It does have to be an actual attribute. Be it additional market value, risk mitigation, additional features, additional durability, etc. Specifically, the value has be one that is given by the individual. ick's statement said it: "to each his own."

If someone wants to convince me to pay a lawyer for a trust, then they need to convince me that I should place value equal to or greater than the cost. You won't convince me with spooky generalities. I'd love to hear some actual stories, see some actual legal issues with a QW trust.

Sorry, but I'm a scientist at heart, so anecdotes and fudd don't drive my behavior. Observable reality does.
I too would like to see one documented case where the gun trust lawyer proved to be of any value and one case where QW posed a problem. No lawyer has ever been able to provide me any proof just that it HAS happened and give me your credit card.

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by MV10 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:56 pm

I can't really understand why some of you have such a hard-on for shooting them down. Is it just the money? I've run bar tabs bigger than what they charged me. So far, my trust has been the cheapest part of this whole NFA gig. I sure wish you guys would get that worked up over the NFA itself, or the $200 stamp, or any of the other dollar figures in this little soiree.
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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by urban assault » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:34 pm

The main point why I went the Quicken Trust route in '08 for my SBR wasn't the lower cost, it was that I knew I had the ability to handle it MYSELF.

I am a reasonably private person and I disliked the notion of sitting in front of some puffed-up suit, watching as he took care of paperwork which I could do alone.

My business is just that... my business, and the less people involved the more I like it.

The Trust option itself appealed to me because I could bypass the normal felgercarb that comes from going the "regular" route. No approaching the county Sheriff on bended knee for a signature, or the other "Mother may I?" background crap for me, just properly filled-out paperwork and some money to FEDGOV and I had my stamp 57 days later.

-urban

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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by MV10 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 10:15 am

I suppose something a lot of people may not realize is what you actually get with a decent gun trust. And yes, it is actually a gun trust. While the laws about establishing a trust do not mention firearms or the NFA or anything similar, a trust can include a variety of additional stipulations. I was highly skeptical of this aspect when I was considering whether to get one, but after seeing mine, I'm convinced. It addresses a huge array of things that had never even crossed my mind.

In short, I received a lot more than a three-page cookie-cutter trust document -- the package ran to about 60 pages or so. There were highly detailed instructions for doing a variety of things with the trust, descriptions of what NOT to do with it, explanations of terms, and answers to practically all of the procedural or "can I do X Y Z?" questions I see asked here on a regular basis.

Do you need these things? No, clearly not. But are any of us here based purely on need? Unlikely.
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Re: NFA trust vs. Quicken (I have no heirs besides wife)

Post by curtpenn » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:35 pm

Though many NFA attorneys may be smoke blowers, the fact still remains that few of us would represent ourselves in any sort of court proceeding. Given that, why would you force your heirs to be represented by you in probate/estate proceedings, or potentially even a criminal proceeding should there be an issue with your trust?

I can't fathom why someone who would drop tens of thousands on NFA firearms would try and save $300 on the legal document that facilitates their ownership of those items.

It's just cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Some of us just want to slap a $200 short barrel or two on one of the AR lowers we have around the house. Doesn't make much financial sense to spend hundreds for legal boilerplate plus the $200 for the stamp. I just ran through the free process of creating a trust on Rocket Lawyer and wonder if anyone out there has tried this?

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