Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

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Tolerate "lockdown" by non-LEOs at a mall?

Yes. I'd do whatever they tell me.
1
2%
No. I'm responsible for my safety and wouldn't trust non-LEOs.
49
98%
 
Total votes: 50

700PSS
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Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by 700PSS » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:45 pm

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascoun ... oting.html
A staff worker at Panera Bread Co. was standing by the front door, not letting people in or out.
"Lockdown" of adults by non-law enforcement personnel at a mall? I don't think I could be confined by a mall employee trying to keep me caged up like that. If I want out, I would use any means available to get out, rather than being forced to huddle up like sheep, waiting for the slaughter to come to us.

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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by continuity » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:51 am

Have no use for some pimpley faced teenager giving me direction that could very well affect my quality of life. I'll make my own decisions thank you.
What amount of a man is composed of his own collection of experiences... and the conclusions that those experiences have allowed him to "know" for certain as "Truth"? :Ick

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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by fatherdeath » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:41 am

Id get out of there and in to one of the back hallways they use for stocking those are usually 12inch thick concrete

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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by Bone16 » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:09 am

700PSS wrote:http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascoun ... oting.html
A staff worker at Panera Bread Co. was standing by the front door, not letting people in or out.
"Lockdown" of adults by non-law enforcement personnel at a mall? I don't think I could be confined by a mall employee trying to keep me caged up like that. If I want out, I would use any means available to get out, rather than being forced to huddle up like sheep, waiting for the slaughter to come to us.

Not to mention the civil lawsuits against the individual and Panera Bread for illegal detainment at least. If I were the owner of that franchise, I'd cut my losses and fire the employee that did that.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by urban assault » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:52 pm

Since I'm always armed, if and when I hear a fusillade of shots I'm getting my woman to a position of safety or escape(if she's with me).

If she isn't, I'm going to do my level best to figure out who the bad guy is and then put much lead in his chest or head, because if I hit the emergency exit without trying to help I don't think I could ever look at myself in the mirror again.

I'll deal with the consequences(legal and life) afterwards.

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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by poikilotrm » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:29 pm

continuity wrote:Have no use for some pimpley faced teenager giving me direction that could very well affect my quality of life. I'll make my own decisions thank you.
You sir, have no respect for authority! :lol:
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by Sdustin » Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:38 pm

urban assault wrote:Since I'm always armed, if and when I hear a fusillade of shots I'm getting my woman to a position of safety or escape(if she's with me).

If she isn't, I'm going to do my level best to figure out who the bad guy is and then put much lead in his chest or head, because if I hit the emergency exit without trying to help I don't think I could ever look at myself in the mirror again.

I'll deal with the consequences(legal and life) afterwards.

-urban
This and ive often thought about things like this would i help would i just leave its hard to say what i would do until it happens but i would never allow someone else to keep me safe when im much better prepared of my own safety, and it is kind of hard to go up against someone with an ar15 and you armed with a pistol. and i carry two "slim9s"
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by bakerjw » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:05 pm

discretion is the better part of valor. If faced with someone with an AR and you have a handgun, you simply look for cover until an opportunity presents itself. A gun jamming or magazine swap is the key. Until then, you stick to cover.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by Sdustin » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:32 am

Yea if the ass holes reloading and you rush him and shoot its a better match i guess
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:40 am

bakerjw wrote:discretion is the better part of valor. If faced with someone with an AR and you have a handgun, you simply look for cover until an opportunity presents itself. A gun jamming or magazine swap is the key. Until then, you stick to cover.
Know that 99.9% of what looks like cover in such a scenario is only concealment.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by ick » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:46 am

Hard to say what I would do, being a pencil pusher and all. I have some crisis/stress training, but it doesn’t replace actual SHTF experience.

I would like to think I could rise to the call of bold courageous action and not fall into the sheep/coward/flee/pee my pants response category.

I trust that I will likely never have to find out the hard way.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by bakerjw » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:14 am

Libertarian_Geek wrote:
bakerjw wrote:discretion is the better part of valor. If faced with someone with an AR and you have a handgun, you simply look for cover until an opportunity presents itself. A gun jamming or magazine swap is the key. Until then, you stick to cover.
Know that 99.9% of what looks like cover in such a scenario is only concealment.
Quite true.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:41 am

ick wrote:Hard to say what I would do, being a pencil pusher and all. I have some crisis/stress training, but it doesn’t replace actual SHTF experience.

I would like to think I could rise to the call of bold courageous action and not fall into the sheep/coward/flee/pee my pants response category.

I trust that I will likely never have to find out the hard way.
Ditto my friend.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by 1mobum » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:08 pm

Oh come on guys this is the internet, nobody is going to do a tactical ninja roll they learned at a hard core class they took? Dive and roll shoot the bad guy is true Little Joe fashoion?

Good to see some people are honest enough with themselve to admit when s--t jumps off,who knows how exactly you will react.

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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by continuity » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:12 pm

poikilotrm wrote:
continuity wrote:Have no use for some pimpley faced teenager giving me direction that could very well affect my quality of life. I'll make my own decisions thank you.
You sir, have no respect for authority! :lol:
Dammit... I've been punked out. :mrgreen:
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by continuity » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:40 pm

Just a couple of thoughts. If shots are fired in a mall, our actions are going to be excecuted in an environment of chaos;

Remember, we are all in our street clothes, and not recognizable as an "official" response.

First thoughts about getting loved ones and others to safety using all descretion is a great primary objective.

After that, if we go looking for the evil with intentions to neutralize it, in many ways we could be mistaken as that threat or an accomplice by other concealed carriers, as well as the popo... especially if our firearm is visable. That goes for off duty cops too. For many of us, our adrenaline level will be off the chart and focuse on the "hunt" is going to lower some of our input recognition. Verbal directions to stand down... by heavily armed swat types, might go... unheard...

As a final consideration, once we move into the interdiction mode, we are no longer going to be acting in a defensive manner. Some attorney somewhere will bring up that point, after days, weeks or even years, to disect the events we are dealing with in moments of time. Even though moving to defend others is our driving intent.

Having said all that. If good men fail to confront evil, that is all evil needs to win. I'm comfortable dealing with the subject scenario as a potential bad guy neutralizer. It's good to have tried to think things out before it happens.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by poikilotrm » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:05 pm

continuity wrote:Just a couple of thoughts. If shots are fired in a mall, our actions are going to be excecuted in an environment of chaos;

Remember, we are all in our street clothes, and not recognizable as an "official" response.
This is correct. Plain clothes cops are shot at an alarming rate in real life. Unless you can swiftly and decisively end the threat, the best plan of action is to get out of the combat zone.

One other point that hasn't been addressed:

I have spent decades training with small arms. I have spent countless hours in classrooms, on the range, and in combat zones. All those people at that public place where there is a deranged shooter, why aren't the ones in proximity drawing their weapons and ending the threat? They have had just as much access to weapons, training, etc as I have, more or less. Why do I have to endanger my life and well being for these strangers who are responsible for themselves just as I am responsible for myself?
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by doubloon » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:26 pm

700PSS wrote:http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascoun ... oting.html
A staff worker at Panera Bread Co. was standing by the front door, not letting people in or out.
"Lockdown" of adults by non-law enforcement personnel at a mall? I don't think I could be confined by a mall employee trying to keep me caged up like that. If I want out, I would use any means available to get out, rather than being forced to huddle up like sheep, waiting for the slaughter to come to us.
Agreed.

Later in the article there are bits about police blocking exits. It's a screwed up situation with piss poor organization to say the least.

I believe I would be either escorting my loved ones into the arms of the authorities waiting in the parking lot or moving out into the mall in an effort to find my loved ones and escort them out. Those are my only two options because I NEVER go to the mall unless someone drags me there or it's the crazy season and I feel the need to tag along on security detail.

Assuming I am able to man-up in the situation, staying locked inside a cage and waiting for the threat to find me is a non-option, I plan to leave the kill zone with my loved ones taking action as necessary to accomplish that goal.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by edarahk » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:15 pm

Mall would be a risky place to play sheepdog, unless presented with an early opportunity for a clean shot. Better to get to safety and help others do as much. I'd hate to take shots at the bg and hit someone else, or to be shot myself by other ccw/leo.. That would suck. :|
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by continuity » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:28 am

poikilotrm wrote:...All those people at that public place where there is a deranged shooter, why aren't the ones in proximity drawing their weapons and ending the threat? They have had just as much access to weapons, training, etc as I have, more or less...
Weird juxtaposition of replies... It (would be) because those individuals have been caught in a situation that they have never really thought through. For the most part, the average person, even most CCW holders, operate in condition "blank". Now however... when the absolute unexpected occurs, situational overload happens and those exposed for the first time become operationally neutralized.
poikilotrm wrote:Why do I have to endanger my life and well being for these strangers who are responsible for themselves just as I am responsible for myself?
Meh... who ever said you have to? If you do, it's because you're a meat eater. You'll throw caution to the wind and engage the threat without concern for the consequences. Not suggesting that's the optimal response, just an opinion. If not, it's because at least your cognitive processes aren't frozen, and your psyche has decided that "flight" is the best option relative each of our "fight or flight" responses.

I expected more from you though bro. Given your postings elsewhere, I gathered you only went into a mall environment with a primary (at least 3 mag reloads) a secondary (minimum of 2 mag reloads), 4 or 5 frag grenades, at least some kind of edged blade force projection, thermal /night vision capability, and satphone evac com availability.

For my part I just make sure I have a dime available to make a pay phone help call. Who knows if that 911 call will go through for free. Just saying.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by ick » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:09 am

continuity wrote:For my part I just make sure I have a dime available to make a pay phone help call. Who knows if that 911 call will go through for free. Just saying.
LOL, you were a boy scout too I see? Unfortunately the age of carrying a dime in your pocket is long gone. A few months ago I lost my cell phone and it took me quite some time to even find a pay phone.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by doubloon » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:20 am

If you do it's not a dime anymore and even if you have the right change half the time some punk turd has ripped the handset off it.

I saw one that took a credit card a while back and that kinda scared me.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by Libertarian_Geek » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:24 am

911 on payphones was free. Companies weren't allowed to charge for it.

I also remember the boyscout days, but we were carrying quarters in our emergency kits in my time(35mm film canister).

On a side-note, I worked for a payphone company during the time period when payphones were becoming obsolete. It got hard to make any money off of them when the PSCs mandated that you have them in some unprofitable areas for safety. Not to mention, you had to pay some hefty union wages to keep them collected, repaired, in service, and count all of that dirty change. All of this to try and make money off of a $.25 phone call.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by poikilotrm » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:41 am

continuity wrote: Weird juxtaposition of replies... It (would be) because those individuals have been caught in a situation that they have never really thought through. For the most part, the average person, even most CCW holders, operate in condition "blank". Now however... when the absolute unexpected occurs, situational overload happens and those exposed for the first time become operationally neutralized.
No, it's because we are a nation of sheep, and CCWs are rare.
Meh... who ever said you have to? If you do, it's because you're a meat eater. You'll throw caution to the wind and engage the threat without concern for the consequences. Not suggesting that's the optimal response, just an opinion. If not, it's because at least your cognitive processes aren't frozen, and your psyche has decided that "flight" is the best option relative each of our "fight or flight" responses.
It was a rhetorical question. There is more of an associated concern of being arrested or killed by the cops and painted as a conspirator, etc that goes along with it. Also, I am certain that 99.999% of the strangers I meet on a daily basis aren't ever going to lift a finger to help me, much less spontaneously put their lives on the line for me.
I expected more from you though bro. Given your postings elsewhere, I gathered you only went into a mall environment with a primary (at least 3 mag reloads) a secondary (minimum of 2 mag reloads), 4 or 5 frag grenades, at least some kind of edged blade force projection, thermal /night vision capability, and satphone evac com availability.
Primary, TWO spare mags, a Leatherman, and a cheap cell phone. Also, I can kill you with my mind. :lol:
For my part I just make sure I have a dime available to make a pay phone help call. Who knows if that 911 call will go through for free. Just saying.
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Re: Oregon Mall Shooting (AR-15):POLL

Post by doubloon » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:06 pm

Libertarian_Geek wrote:911 on payphones was free. Companies weren't allowed to charge for it.
..l.
911?

i don't know about you but in a situation like that I'm calling a number where I can actually expect to get some help.
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