Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

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johndoe3
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Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by johndoe3 »

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-1 ... looking-fo

20 years ago, Venezuela was the wealthiest country in South America, with oil reserves matching Saudi Arabia. The Progressives/Socialists have nationalized industries, and then failed at running them. There are no jobs, the country is flat broke, and there is no food in the now nationalized grocery stores--people are starving. Above article has video and pictures.

A sad state of affairs in a country blessed with an abundance of natural resources. They did it to themselves by electing a government that promised them endless freebies.
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by TROOPER »

Doesn't matter. Part of what makes a liberal a liberal, is unbridled hubris. It is central to their insanity. Seeing their policies ruin a society elsewhere doesn't mean to them what it would mean to a logical person. Instead, a liberal just assumes that "they weren't doing it right". They also categorize the starving and unhappy as "right wing extremists". If you need evidence of this, then look how they treated rioters in Baltimore or Ferguson... those weren't rioters, they were "protestors". Then they refer to a tea-party rally as a "racist group of rioters"... blame the right for gun violence even while the most "gun violent" places are liberal voting blocks.

I appreciate the article. Others appreciate it too; and they ask the correct questions. Considering how many little-kid fit-throwing liberals out there are threatening to leave the country if Trump becomes president, it's amusing to note that not a one of them is intending to move to socialist/communist meccas like Venezuela or Cuba. Scumbags in Colorado who are morbidly terrified of 30-round magazines make no attempt to move to places that have already banned such things, like Washington DC, or Chicago.

.... so maybe I need to revise what I said about "hubris" being central to a liberal's insanity; perhaps I should have said "hypocrisy".

But Venezuela? I don't doubt for a microsecond that 'socialism' is the demise of that country, but what sure didn't help it was Texas. Texas, amongst others, began to 'frack', which produced so much oil that the global price of oil fell. The problem here is the number of piglets in Venezuela hanging off the public tit. Since Venezuela funds most of its programs - if not all of them - with state-produced crude oil, then the drop in price ruined the social programs.

Of course, this is exactly what Margaret Thatcher said of socialism: "It works... until you run out of other people's money". Unfortunately this dove-tailed with the "Don't feed the wild animals... they become dependent" signs posted in parks. No more teets, and no viable alternative since they've been weaned off of relative self-sufficiency.

Honestly, I don't really care about it much. It's interesting to see it happen in modern times. It's interesting to think of what would happen if/when that occurs here... but it's mostly an academic exercise, because it isn't avoidable.... and it isn't avoidable because the people who push for this are insane and irrational, and therefore, cannot be convinced that their position is faulty since that would necessarily mean that they would need to admit that they're irrational and insane. And when has that ever happened?
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by whiterussian1974 »

The Darkest Corners of Hell are reserved for those who remain Neutral!-Dante
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by johndoe3 »

Well, they could eat fried rocks if there were any cooking oil available to fry them--no cooking oil available either.

Where did all the money go in Venezuela?

Funny coincidence on how his daughter inherited $4.2 Billion$$ when Chavez died. Chavez was 'for the people'--their poverty and his wealth accumulation.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eport.html
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by CanOfWhooppass »

I wonder if the massive collapse of oil prices played any part?
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by whiterussian1974 »

johndoe3 wrote:Well, they could eat fried rocks if there were any cooking oil available to fry them--no cooking oil available either.
I guess that they could flambé the rocks with the toxic sludge left over from the crude extraction? :(
johndoe3 wrote:Where did all the money go in Venezuela?
CanOfWhooppass wrote:I wonder if the massive collapse of oil prices played any part?
John is correct about "from each according to their abilities, and to those with the greatest Greed." (Marxist/Leninist paraphrase)

Can: No, the prices were irrelevant. It was the Corruption and Greed of a Totalitarian Regime masquerading as a Popular Socialist State.
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by CanOfWhooppass »

Although it is easy to take an event and pick some of the things that took place prior to it and give them the credit for the event, is it solid logic?

post hoc, ergo propter hoc

There are plenty of progressive corrupt socialist societies that are doing just fine. Russia like Venezuela is also heavily dependant on oil, nationalized major industries like oil and has massive welfare programs, etc. Why isn't Russia collapsing, and for that matter why is Purto Rico going bankrupt? I don't have enough facts to debate any of this, but with so many things that are going wrong over there, why so convinced it is directly caused by "progresives" in charge?
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by TROOPER »

Uh... no? Texas RUINED Venezuela by fracking. When the price of crude fell, all of those government programs became unfunded.

The problem of socialism was exposed and exacerbated by the oil collapse. That system was going to fail sooner or later, and because of the newer extraction techniques, it became 'sooner', not 'later.

Yes, oil played a HUGE part in it.
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by a_canadian »

Sure. Oil valuation was critical, as was the American campaign since 2002 to undermine the government and take charge, including at least 2 documented assassination attempts on the leader and Obama following suit after Bush calling Venezuela an official "threat to American security." At first weapons trade embargoes then all manner of goods blockaded resulted in ever-greater pressure on the value of oil to keep things running (both legitimate and corrupt activities of course). When a country makes as powerful an enemy as the US Government, well, they're done. Sooner or later it's just going to be over. Similarly look at how Israel's illegitimate actions continue to amaze and bewilder the world at large, and yet somehow (US backing) they not only survive, but thrive! Nothing like the careful distribution of 'democracy' to keep things on track, especially on the human rights front, eh? But who cares. They're just a bunch of Venezuelans...
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by TROOPER »

That's just asinine. Venezuela spent a lot of money to prop up ALL of their social programs. When the money dried up due to an abundance of product on the market, their funding dropped by around 66%.

The problem was that their economy was almost exclusively oil dependent. No matter the system of government, there was going to be turmoil when oil collapsed. The problem was made worse because so many people existed off of the government, and the government existed off of oil.

"Made an enemy of the US government... "? Yeah, ok. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but even if they were friends or friendly, none of that would've changed the most basic issue: they used to have $$$$$$.... now they have $$.... but their programs still cost $$$$$$... and it still takes $$$$$$ to keep the population living at yesterday's levels.
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by a_canadian »

A rather well thought out and balanced overview of the various perspectives on the Venezuelan situation:

http://www.coha.org/the-other-explanati ... -crisis-2/

And then there's the ongoing campaign from Washington and various related interests to support the extremely wealthy and extreme right-wing elements in Venezuela:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/ven ... y_20160515

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/05/09/ ... elections/
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by TROOPER »

"Extreme right wing elements" in Venezuela.

This is partly why you don't have credibility, A_Canadian. What are the "right wing elements"? Chavez? Maduro? And who over here is propping them up? The liberal State department? The liberal White House?

There's 50,000 articles that make up a dozen excuses for why things are going bad in Venezuela, but there's only two reasons: the people live off of the government, and the government lives off of oil. It isn't more complicated than that. If either of those were wrong, this situation wouldn't be occurring in this manner.

No, I didn't click those links. No, I'm not going to. No, it isn't because I'm close-minded to "the truth" from some obscure bullshit internet site, but it's because it isn't a complex problem, and articles of spin don't change that.
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by a_canadian »

Sorry, couldn't find any articles on truthaboutguns or foxnews nor even on infowars which seemed relevant. Okay, I didn't look. I don't click those links here any more because mindless propaganda doesn't interest me. Too bad you're not clicking my links, as there's actually some good thought and information in them. Your loss.
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by LavaRed »

While a_canadian may differ, as someone who lives in Latin America I can say that US influence is the best hope for the region. I am fully convinced that without it we would have already collapsed under the weight of corruption, drugs, and dictatorships. Personally, I find that things have taken a turn for the better since the US chose to take a more active role in Central America, and I hope more of that comes in the future. And by that, I don't mean handouts. I mean real, lasting influence.
Venezuela did this to themselves by choosing socialism and to side with the Russians and Iranians and other such crowds.
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by Kramer »

TROOPER wrote:"Extreme right wing elements" in Venezuela.

This is partly why you don't have credibility, A_Canadian. What are the "right wing elements"? Chavez? Maduro? And who over here is propping them up? The liberal State department? The liberal White House?

There's 50,000 articles that make up a dozen excuses for why things are going bad in Venezuela, but there's only two reasons: the people live off of the government, and the government lives off of oil. It isn't more complicated than that. If either of those were wrong, this situation wouldn't be occurring in this manner.

No, I didn't click those links. No, I'm not going to. No, it isn't because I'm close-minded to "the truth" from some obscure bullshit internet site, but it's because it isn't a complex problem, and articles of spin don't change that.

Having fun dealing with a-canadian? Kinda like yelling at a deaf kid.
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by whiterussian1974 »

TROOPER wrote:That's just asinine. Venezuela spent a lot of money to prop up ALL of their social programs. When the money dried up due to an abundance of product on the market, their funding dropped by around 66%.

The problem was that their economy was almost exclusively oil dependent. No matter the system of government, there was going to be turmoil when oil collapsed. The problem was made worse because so many people existed off of the government, and the government existed off of oil.
As I understand your argument, it's VEN's lack of GDP diversity that caused the collapse.

My point of the price decline was that it affected the Timing, rather than the emminant collapse. IE: Even if prices remained high, they would simply continue increasing spending until they collapsed.

Whereas Free Market systems would have perhaps scaled spending to reflect Income via taxation. This would provide a cushion during commodity downturns. And other Market Sectors such as Manufacturing, Agri, Tech, Research, IntelProp, could have also balanced the income stream during periodic or cyclic repricing.
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So I defere to his wisdom in many Fields. (I'm not sure which spelling to use. I mean https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deferir#Portuguese rather than the Spanish.)
{Etymology 2 (law) To submit to the opinion or desire of another in respect to their judgment or authority.}

My knowledge of PetroChem is derived from speaking w Refinery workers in Pasadena, TX. So 3rd hand at best. But my understanding of Econ is University and Indepenant Study-based.

A System MUST stand or fall under its own weight, rather than temporal fluctuations in pricing/demand. Thus, it's VEN's spending, rather than funding, upon which I based my earlier statement.

If I misunderstand, hopefully someone will correct my assumptions. But it seems that Oil Prices were only 1 contributing factor. Not a stand-alone cause of VEN's failure.

And if she had a thriving Agri Econ, why would falling Oil Revenue cause shelves to empty? Gov't subsidies for foodstuffs, sure. But not a total lack of supply. Under Free Market, farmers should be getting rich and this would provide the Gov't yet another funding stream.

But oppressive Agri taxation WOULD bare the shelves of goods. Why farm when Uncle Juan/Carlos/Pedro steals your crops?
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Re: Venezuela Collapsing, What Happens When Progressives Ruin A Country

Post by LavaRed »

whiterussian1974 wrote:
TROOPER wrote:That's just asinine. Venezuela spent a lot of money to prop up ALL of their social programs. When the money dried up due to an abundance of product on the market, their funding dropped by around 66%.

The problem was that their economy was almost exclusively oil dependent. No matter the system of government, there was going to be turmoil when oil collapsed. The problem was made worse because so many people existed off of the government, and the government existed off of oil.
As I understand your argument, it's VEN's lack of GDP diversity that caused the collapse.

My point of the price decline was that it affected the Timing, rather than the emminant collapse. IE: Even if prices remained high, they would simply continue increasing spending until they collapsed.

Whereas Free Market systems would have perhaps scaled spending to reflect Income via taxation. This would provide a cushion during commodity downturns. And other Market Sectors such as Manufacturing, Agri, Tech, Research, IntelProp, could have also balanced the income stream during periodic or cyclic repricing.
---
Trooper is certainly my hero in many respects. I often speak highly of him and cite his posts during discussions in my Offline Life. My wife frequently asks, "How is that Submariner in GA? Have you heard from him lately?"

So I defere to his wisdom in many Fields. (I'm not sure which spelling to use. I mean https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deferir#Portuguese rather than the Spanish.)
{Etymology 2 (law) To submit to the opinion or desire of another in respect to their judgment or authority.}

My knowledge of PetroChem is derived from speaking w Refinery workers in Pasadena, TX. So 3rd hand at best. But my understanding of Econ is University and Indepenant Study-based.

A System MUST stand or fall under its own weight, rather than temporal fluctuations in pricing/demand. Thus, it's VEN's spending, rather than funding, upon which I based my earlier statement.

If I misunderstand, hopefully someone will correct my assumptions. But it seems that Oil Prices were only 1 contributing factor. Not a stand-alone cause of VEN's failure.

And if she had a thriving Agri Econ, why would falling Oil Revenue cause shelves to empty? Gov't subsidies for foodstuffs, sure. But not a total lack of supply. Under Free Market, farmers should be getting rich and this would provide the Gov't yet another funding stream.

But oppressive Agri taxation WOULD bare the shelves of goods. Why farm when Uncle Juan/Carlos/Pedro steals your crops?
I think defer is the correct spelling.
That being said, just excessive spending on its own would break any system, because it makes money cheap. Hyperinflation inevitably happens. If there are no protections towards private property or doing business, that reduces the incentive to invest. A negative loop is born. Falling oil prices and their effect on the Venezuelan economy due to lack of diversification only made the system crash a bit faster. But it would have crashed anyways, just like Europe will.
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