possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

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possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by quiettime » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:03 am

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orland ... -shooting/

BOHICA. Around 50 dead. Apparently the shooter, Omar Mateen, had a handgun and an "AR15 style assault rifle" as well as "a device" strapped to his body.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by ranb » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:11 pm

The words I've heard were "assault weapon" and the dreaded "AK-15".

50 dead. US citizen (born in NY) of Afghan descent is the perp. I've read he was a licensed security guard.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by johndoe3 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:41 pm

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/12/orlan ... ed-by-fbi/

It's reported that the FBI investigated Omar Mateen in both 2013 and 2014 for ties to terrorism and had files on him.

Of course we all know that dated investigation files don't reflect that a person like Omar could take the pledge to ISIS in the last couple of months (they can sign up online now), and then decide to go 'all in' like this Orlando shooting.

From a risk assessment point of view, the more muslims that Obama brings into the USA, the greater likelihood that these types of shootings are going to occur via the home-grown terrorist.

...or Bernie supporters expressing dissatisfaction. :(
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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by ranb » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:23 pm

The perp was born in NY in 1986, his parents probably entered the USA during the Carter or Reagan presidencies. It appears that most of our violence is home grown and not likely be affected by relatively few muslim refugees entering the country.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by TROOPER » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:42 pm

"Home grown"? Examine the beliefs of the household he grew up in.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by ranb » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:00 pm

TROOPER wrote:"Home grown"? Examine the beliefs of the household he grew up in.
I wish I could, but the Mateen's parents aren't saying very much. This guy was in his 30's. The beliefs I grew up with are not entirely the same ones I live with now; I wouldn't be surprised if he drifted away from what his parents taught him.

Mateen's ex-wife says he beat her on a regular basis. Now if Mateen's father was also a wife beater, chances are he was living with the same values taught in the house he grew up in.

Ranb

Edited to add; The father seems to be seriously deranged; https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... residency/
The father of Omar Mateen, identified by police as the man behind the carnage at an Orlando nightclub early Sunday morning, is an Afghan man who holds strong political views, including support for the Afghan Taliban. In a video he posted on Saturday, he appears to be portraying himself as the president of Afghanistan.
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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by TROOPER » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:12 pm

The dad released another video this morning saying that he was puzzled by his son's actions, but that gays do need to die.

Here's the thing: Germany doesn't recognize the 'religion' of scientology. They say it isn't a religion, and therefore doesn't enjoy the privileges of such an institution. In the cult of Islam, if a person leaves the cult, their life is forfeit. This is a key component of a cult. If the US described Islam as a cult, would it enjoy the same privileges as a religion?

Make no mistake about it; ISLAM is the problem. It is a corrupt institution that cannot co-exist with any other system. It is fundamentally different than any other legitimate religion, and it shouldn't enjoy a shred of privilege here in the US. That "First Amendment" thing... it's protecting this cult which is hell-bent -- in the most literal sense of the word -- on destroying the West, the US, the Constitution, and us. The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact. Or look at it this way: if a person, when being interviewed for admission into this country, was asked about their religious beliefs and replied, "I don't have any religious beliefs. I am an atheist. However, I believe in the destruction of your government, your people, and your culture." Would that person be admitted into the country? But if they said, "I am a Muslim. I believe in the destruction of your government, your people, and your culture."... then they get a pass?

Really?

No, really??

I'm tired of seeing people on the internet toss out the phrase, "Wake up!"... but goddamn, people, wake-the-fck-up: Islam's goal is YOUR destruction. It's right in their "holy book", and it's repeated daily by their leaders. It isn't even hidden, but still we get these dumbasses over here demurring with, "Well... it is their beliefs... and they need to be protected... and what right do we have... "

Bunch of morons.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by a_canadian » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:17 pm

Probably not going to happen, as people are so gosh darn clingy about their religions... but I'll regard the species and society as being somewhat mature when ALL religious bullshit is understood by the majority to be what it has always been, bullshit. Banning or taking away special religious status of any one religion leads to all sorts of problems, most obviously the sorts of religious wars both literal and philosophical which we've seen for so many centuries. De-fund them all! Take away the tax-free status of all religions. No one gets a free pass. That would be a significant step towards people taking individual, direct responsibility for their actions, with no more excuses about 'god said to do it' and all the other related crap. Righteous war? Really? Because one group's invisible friend is superior to another's? Come on people, grow up.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by TROOPER » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:55 pm

I don't agree.

Hope is an emotion, and even atheists engage in it. Religion as a whole isn't the problem, although virtually any religion can be used to harm other people.

The problem is something more basic; that some religions -- Islam in particular -- don't work in a civilized society. If the tenant of a belief system, whether it be political or religious, is that other people must conform to your view-point, or suffer, then that is a failed belief system which is completely at odds with the basic American culture. That thought-process exists outside of religion.

You can find examples of any religion being used in this way, but what makes Islam fundamentally different than Christianity, is that the top-voices of these respective religions are diametrically opposite in how they integrate into a society. The head Imams and Ayatollahs are saying "violence, violence, violence". Given the number of people who listen to them, it's just an odds game that a small percentage are going to do it. Those same odds exist within any large group of people, but in Christianity, those that are especially susceptible to insanity or violence... they're not being "egged-on" to do it.

Plus, Islam is a fraud - just like Scientology is. It's a money-making control scheme. You can see it right in the scripture that says that non-believers are infidels, and that infidels must be destroyed... or pay a tax. What is that crap? I think my neighbor beating his wife in the front yard is wrong, and I'll take steps to end it... unless he pays me. WTF? A thing is wrong, or it isn't wrong, but it is independent of payment. The fact that this tenant exists within that cult just shows that it, like Scientology, is a financial enterprise blended with control.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... Christian churches ask for a tithe too. But when you don't pay the tithe, you're not killed. By the same token, if you've committed atrocities within the context of that church that are unforgivable, you get ex-communicated... but you can't get back in by paying money.

A_Canadian - there's smart atheists, and there's dumb atheists... just like there's smart people of faith, and dumb people of faith. If you don't believe, that's your business, your choice, and I don't care that you live in Canada (whose laws I'm not clear on), but that's your right as a human being. But pretending like we're better off without religion? Sure... some maladies would be done away with. But faith/belief/religion has - and does - a lot of good too... and it's almost nonsensical to refuse to see that.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by a_canadian » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:36 pm

Just as the old saw about morality coming from religious belief is garbage, so it is that charity, good works, come from a religious basis. I've seen far too many non-religious people doing wonderful community work to believe that, and further, feel confident that most or all currently religious people doing fine things for their communities and fellow humans would continue doing so if their churches were to vanish tomorrow, along with any memory of them. Just as it feels good to give someone any gift for whatever reason, it feels good to help each other. That's because we are a gregarious species, who have thrived in this world primarily because of our impulse to work together towards common goals, the common good. Religions have come along and attempted to co-opt that impulse, to build their literature and mythology in such ways as to 'prove' that goodness comes from their teachings. But religions only borrow from much older human culture and evolutionary impulses.

Just the same, to blame such actions as the shooting currently under discussion on 'devils' or 'evil' is misdirection. It doesn't help anything. Such acts are part of the spectrum of human behaviour, and until we work out ways of dealing with the complexities of mental illness, and dispose of the various motivators for such acts among which I certainly count any and all religions (though greed for power is more directly to blame - a competition-based economic system which infects every aspect of modern culture), we will continue to see wars and on the smaller scale mass shootings and other violent crimes causing pain and death everywhere. The problems are vast and complex, and to attempt to delineate even a significant summary in a forum is probably futile both because of the time required and because of the relative lack of receptivity among readers. But the way I see it, briefly, is that we are too immature in our psychological evolution to keep up with our technological development, incapable of coping well. It is inevitable that these sorts of things will continue until we have matured more. Part of that will require a collective decision to abandon power structures as an essential defining characteristic of society. A sense of dis-empowerment of whatever sort all too easily tips the balance for the mentally unsable and aggressive individual, and putting that together with weapons leads to murder. Just as having a powerful military inevitably leads to wars, because governments are inherently unbalanced, 'mentally ill' at the institutional level, as they seek to satisfy whatever demands are placed upon them by various pressuring elements - elections, corporate interests, nationalist fantasies, etc.

Basically I guess I'm saying 's--t happens.' But less s--t like this would happen if there weren't so many easy excuses for it to happen. Take away religion, you've removed a big excuse. Take away nationalism, there goes another one, with much greater numbers of lives saved and suffering reduced once wars over borders and resources are eliminated. Oh, but gosh, what would we do without national pride? Same thing we'd do without professional sports teams to identify with; we'd move back to knowing and interacting with our immediate neighbours, our communities, our local well-being. We are a village-scale primate. We've grown too big for our genes. Religions aren't helping.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by TROOPER » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:25 pm

That's a lot of opinion.

I've given a number of concessions, an important one of which is that (hypothetical number) 1-in-a-10,000 is a violent nutbag. Islam urges all of its followers to be violent with the shotgun-approach that the message will reach that 1-in-10,000 who will act on it. Christianity, or at least mainstream Christianity, preaches pacifism to its followers, and that 1-in-10,000 will be less likely to engage in insane violence.

Tell me that's not a service?

Imposing a view on others by force isn't some monopoly held by religion, as there's any number of secular institutions that do that very thing - most notably dictatorships, or tyrants within a government.

Even if religion/faith is 100% BS, it typically extends the message that:
1) there is an afterlife
2) the actions of this life affect the condition of the afterlife
3) that the judge of life's actions is omniscient

Even if people are running around 'being good' out of fear of hell, they're still being good.

Tell me that's not a service?

We won't ever agree on faith, but it's somewhat stupefying to see that you won't acknowledge any societal benefits to religion.

... and I never claimed that atheists are inherently bad. I'm giving credit where it's due. Shame you won't do the same.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by a_canadian » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:52 pm

Yeah, well, I'm an opinionated SOB. Sue me.

While Islam may urge its followers to commit violence, how many do? The vast majority behave just as the vast majority of Christians do; committing themselves to raising healthy, happy families, building healthy communities, living good lives. The sweeping generalizations are not strictly mine, especially when you start claiming some sort of moral high ground for Christianity as being somehow a religion of peace above others. The Crusades may have happened a long time ago... but we're talkin' the slaughter of a vast number of Muslims, and that's still a very tangible cultural memory for a lot of people. Does the average Muslim not provide services to their community? Or the average member of whatever silly cult? Of course they do, because as I said (and as you ignored) it is basic human nature to help others. Only a minority (sociopaths, billionaires, lawyers - okay, some of each of those are alright) don't see a need to bring positivity to their dealings with their fellow man. Religions are not necessary for this basic function of a human being. We help. It is part of us.

And of course imposing one's will upon others by force of any sort is unacceptable. As I said, this space is insufficient as is time in the day to make anything remotely approaching a comprehensive listing and description of all the ways we're a messed up society. I wasn't trying to make a complete argument. Only saying that getting rid of the special status of religious enterprises might be a good start. I'm agreeing, oddly, with many on the right who feel that Muslims should not be granted special status. But neither should Christians (tax-free status for churches and church enterprises), Jews (billions in military aid), whoever it may be who feels that because they have a special book they deserve special treatment, while they in turn stomp all over people who don't happen to share their belief in that particular special book. I have books I like. Does that give me the right to go around shooting people or declaring war on them to protect whatever rights I imagine those books confer upon me? Gimme a break.

I didn't say Christians nor any others of the faithful are inherently bad. If anything it's you saying so, regarding Muslims. So bringing atheists into it as some sort of concession is, well, a bit odd. But at least atheists aren't declaring holy wars on anyone else... Nor do we demand a tax break for our places of non-worship. I thought taxation was supposed to be equal? I thought there was supposed to be a clear division between church and state? When was the last atheist president elected again?

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by TROOPER » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:50 pm

Yes, I am saying that Islam is inherently bad. I've been very clear on that point.

"The vast majority behave just as the vast majority of Christians do; committing themselves to raising healthy, happy families, building healthy communities, living good lives."

Yes. True. BUT... in the eyes of the heads of Islam, this means that these are BAD Muslims. Which is the fundamental difference between the religion of Islam and the religion of Christianity.

I didn't say that Christianity is a "religion of peace". Hell, if anything, it's the opposite story in the news media. No, what I said was that the religion of Christianity can integrate into a society. Islam cannot. Islam demands DESTRUCTION or TAXATION of non-Muslims. Christianity demands an attempt to 'spread-the-gospel'... or 'witness' to non-believers. One of those is a peaceful activity... the other has no place in a civilized society.

I don't see why a church, mosque, or synagogue shouldn't be tax-exempt. Even if it's not a religious activity, it's still a non-profit. From a philosophical standpoint, it isn't any different than a little-league team. They don't produce, and they don't make money. All of the money they get is donated to them.

You don't demand tax-exempt for places of non-worship? Total nonsense. There's any number of non-religious tax-exempt organizations. I'm fine with this.
You don't declare holy war? No. You don't. You just declare regular war. And? Is the carnage somehow different as a result? I'm fine with this too.

When was the last atheist president elected? Who knows? Who cares? Why is that relevant? Do you feel somehow under-represented?

I'm tired of talking to you.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by whiterussian1974 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:42 am

ranb wrote:The perp was born in NY in 1986, his parents probably entered the USA during the Carter or Reagan presidencies. It appears that most of our violence is home grown and not likely be affected by relatively few muslim refugees entering the country.

Ranb
San Bernadino was certainly home grown. Which home did she grow up in again?
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Now we know why Obama was for legalizing Gay Marriage after stating that he was against homosexuals. Now that they're on the Gov't Records list, his buddies can go house clearing with their Fast and Furious guns that Erick Holder gave them.
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Anyone ? how he wasn't allowed to buy body armor, but had no problems buying the "automatic AK-15s" and going to 1 of the few "gun free zones" in Orlando?

Shouldn't their be signs stating "Terror and Mass killing Magnet Site. Unarmed Victims here for easy slaughter."
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Why is it that Mass and Spree Killers seem to target "Gun Free Zones?" When was the last time they attacked an armed Policeman?

Oh, that's right. Right here at the "Draw Mohamed" event in Irving, TX. They barely cleared their car doors before a trained person w a firearm put some shots in their heads. We certainly can't have THAT in modern PC-friendly USA. :roll:

That might actually stop the plague of dogmatic killers. Then how would police keep getting tanks to answer reports of people w firearms in their own homes. Maybe we would even need to announce our presence during "No Knock Warrants." Then innocent home-owners wouldn't get shot in the back "reaching for a weapon" when their neighbor called in that they are raising 8 marijuana plants in their closet.

These filthy Terrorist scum! How dare they practice "Body Sovereignty" after working all week to pay exorbitant taxes to fund their own enslavement and execution.

(They really weren't. The neighbor wanted to "SWAT" them for refusing to bring the trashcans in until the next morning after trash day. That's what they get for not following the HOA Guidelines. Trashcans must not remain in street view after 8pm on trash day.)
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It's a pity that the nightclub didn't offer free coffee and colas to off-duty cops. Maybe then the 3hr standoff before EMTs could enter the club would have been harder to justify. (wiki=Golden Hour medical care.)

Good to know that a "Progressive" city doesn't risk City Employees' lives to rescue who knows how many people. :roll: :x Wouldn't want anyone to undertake a high-risk entry when 1 man might still have some bullets left that haven't entered anyone's heads. :shock: :x :evil:
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Now I'll read Trooper and a_canadian's posts. They always give good debates. :)
Though Trooper seemed upset in 1 line that I caught while scanning. Hopefully he won't mind venting our collective outrage a bit more? :(
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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by TROOPER » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:38 pm

a_canadian wrote:The Crusades may have happened a long time ago... but we're talkin' the slaughter of a vast number of Muslims, and that's still a very tangible cultural memory for a lot of people.
Why did the "Crusades" happen? A bunch of disparate "Christians" from among warring European nations and pre-nations all agreed to go beat up Muslims for no reason?

This is a lot like that movie "The Big Short", which tries really hard to be insanely stupid, and just nails it. It's telling half of the story and leaving off the "why".

So I'm guessing you don't know. The Crusades happened because the actual civilized world got tired of Muslim raiders coming up out of the hell-hole middle east and collecting their "tax" and killing infidels. I realize you're not an American, but in the USMC's song, the bit about the "shores of Tripoli" are referencing an early part of American history where, as a new nation, we had to choose between paying Muslims in Tripoli "extortion tax money", or fight. We chose - against many who argued otherwise - to fight. Barbary pirates? The "shores of Tripoli"? Muslims taking their "tax" from non-Muslims... or killing them.

Point being, your contention that Christians suited-up and for no damn reason decided to go and slaughter Muslims is ill-informed at best, and an outright lie at worst. Either way, you're wrong... and I don't care enough about WHY you're wrong to question it.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:28 pm

Radical Islam = Radical Christians = Radical Jews = Radical anybody

How is this hate based crime any different than when it's a Christian doing God's work by burning down a gay bar with people in it or shooting up an abortion clinic? The non radical Muslims are at the forefront of this battle working with the FBI, NSA and others.

We have had terrorism in this country for centuries and it is always justified by religion, the KKK has preachers and high ranking government officials. Isn't it about time we take off our pointy hat and look in the mirror?
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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by a_canadian » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:39 pm

Thanks CanOfWhoopass. Voice of reason is good to hear. Tarring all Muslims with the same brush because of a tiny minority, including radical clerics spouting nonsense and violence, is much like saying all Christians are exactly like David Koresh. Should we consider deporting all Christians back to Europe because of the Reverend Jim Jones, who still holds the 'high score' for an individual act of US domestic terror, though the US citizens he killed were not on US soil at the time? As I said before and have said for more than half my life, people don't need religion to tell them to be good for each other. They don't need religion, period. But to blame a religion for the act of a bipolar gay man in denial, with an obsession for becoming an NYPD officer and a propensity for beating his wife, well, that's pushing it.

Trump will make all the political hay out of this he can, as will Clinton, because these sorts of politicians are whores who will use us in whatever ways they can towards their own ends. Just as the Crusades used a relatively tiny number of criminals who abused their positions as Muslims to justify their raids and 'taxes' as an excuse to slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents, so the tradition continues today. There's a sizeable percentage of Americans who will answer YES when asked if nuking the entire Middle East would be a justifiable action. Bigotry is easy. Situations are vastly more complex than that. But always, the majority are not interested in fighting with anyone, they just want to lead good lives. Politicians love over-simplification. And to an unhealthy extent so do religions.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by TROOPER » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:27 pm

That's not a voice of reason, that's a voice of abject ignorance. Just because there's two people saying at the same time doesn't make it more true, it just means there's more abject ignorance being spread.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by a_canadian » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:45 pm

And the fact that European Christiandom, directed by the Vatican, wanted to consolidate power in their 'holy land' of the Middle East, that had nothing to do with the vast efforts to slaughter the inhabitants? Christianity is a religion of peace (according to some volumes edited together for no political purpose whatsoever) according to the words of its namesake... who if he existed, would by his own definition be abjectly horrified with the countless acts of brutality brought to bear upon non-Christians in his name... Ignorance indeed.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by ick » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:50 pm

a_canadian wrote:Bigotry is easy. Situations are vastly more complex than that. But always, the majority are not interested in fighting with anyone, they just want to lead good lives. Politicians love over-simplification. And to an unhealthy extent so do religions.
It seems canadians also have a penchant towards oversimplification and moral equivalency.
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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by a_canadian » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:00 pm

ick wrote:It seems canadians also have a penchant towards oversimplification and moral equivalency.
... says the guy who equates the verbiage of 1 Canadian with 'Canadians' at large. Uh-huh.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by ick » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:47 pm

EXACTLY. I see you understood my comment and realized how stupid your words were.
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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by a_canadian » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:52 pm

It's like talking to a door... good grief. I keep promising myself I won't argue with Americans, there's just no point, but then I go and fall for it again. Oh well, back to restricting myself to just baffles and such.

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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by CanOfWhooppass » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:09 am

TROOPER wrote:That's not a voice of reason, that's a voice of abject ignorance. Just because there's two people saying at the same time doesn't make it more true, it just means there's more abject ignorance being spread.
If your so sure I'm the ignorant one, why don't you put a pole asking if your right on the money, making a reasonable argument or radical not worth arguing with? The fact that people give up trying to reason with you dosnt make you right.
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Re: possibly largest mass shooting at Orlando nightclub

Post by ick » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:58 am

Canadian,

So my sarcastic post containing a bigoted attitude towards Canadians didn't help you realize you are being a bigot?

Who would have guessed?

I don't feel that way about Canadians by the way, that would make me a bigot like you.
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