So if we find a Dyson sphere...

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poikilotrm
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So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by poikilotrm » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:34 pm

We better build a fleet of ships an haul ass in the other direction. :lol:

http://www.popsci.com/alien-megastructu ... arter-goal
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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by a_canadian » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:58 pm

Lost me. Why haul ass away from such an artifact? Perhaps this will sound naive to you, but isn't it logical to assume that any species (or group of species) capable of assembling such a structure would be non-warlike? Just imagine how many generations of social stability would be required. The technical proficiency, the vast resources which dwarf the entirety of human fortunes throughout history. To build such an environment and make it habitable, and then to maintain it over however many aeons, it boggles human capacity for imagining. Most significantly because we can not imagine ourselves being sufficiently peaceful to undertake an effort even a tiny fraction as massive. We can aspire of course... but in the meantime we'd be left to admire such maturity from afar, knowing the builders would be unlikely to show much interest in our humble intelligence or resources.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by poikilotrm » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:12 am

1. In any meeting of two civilizations, the lesser technologically advanced one is destroyed.

2. Compare a US aircraft carrier to what the people of the Congo have built. Who's gonna win if we go there? Even if there is no war, they'll be destroyed, one way or another.
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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by a_canadian » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:47 am

Human examples, human bevavior. Not applicable.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:52 pm

a_canadian wrote:Human examples, human bevavior. Not applicable.
Steven Hawking PhD claims that Poiki is right. That Predators have Evolutionary advantages that make them most likely to be capable of Interstellar Spaceflight and Territorial Expansion.

I tend to agree w YOU. That insects who are herbivores and non-hostile to other life-types have technological advantages in Group Behavior, Job Specialization, Division of Labor, and Collectivization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizat ... erspective

So, non-Terran Hive-minds would be best suited to creating a Dyson Sphere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hive_mind wrote:A hive mind or group mind may refer to a number of uses or concepts, ranging from positive to neutral and pejorative. Examples include:

Collective consciousness or collective intelligence, concepts in sociology and philosophy
Culture A collective of knowledge, art, artifacts, symbols and social ritual
The apparent consciousness of colonies of social insects such as ants, bees and termites
Swarm intelligence, the collective behaviour of decentralized, self-organized systems, natural or artificial
Universal mind, a type of universal higher consciousness or source of being in some esoteric beliefs
Group mind (science fiction), a type of collective consciousness
Egregore is a phenomenon in occultism which has been described as group mind.
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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by a_canadian » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:28 pm

whiterussian1974 wrote:Steven Hawking PhD claims that Poiki is right. That Predators have Evolutionary advantages that make them most likely to be capable of Interstellar Spaceflight and Territorial Expansion.
Just another reason I wish people would stop quoting Hawking on anything outside his field of expertise. The guy's an excellent theoretical mathematician. Has had some brilliant insights into all sorts of matters to do with physics and astrophysics. But when he starts talking about sociology... he just falls apart. In this particular example though, if he actually said something about Dyson sphere builders being predators (which I doubt - sort of seems likely you're mis-applying a quote), what does interstellar flight and territorial expansion have to do with it? Building a Dyson sphere is a conservative (in the classical sense, not the modern political misuse of the term) effort, a way of 'staying home' instead of expanding outwards, making maximum use of existing resources. It could even be called a 'green' effort, at least in contrast to the sort of Mongolian Hordes sort of image Hawking is conjuring.

Such a structure implies a collectivist approach to civilisation. A mega-project built for the common good. Not really the sort of thing needed as a launch platform for interstellar plundering efforts. These people would undoubtedly be doing more agriculture than warship building, though there would of course be the necessity of meteor/asteroid defence systems all around the structure.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by LavaRed » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:28 pm

I highly doubt that this points to them being non- warlike. At least here on Earth, nearly all of the great technological advances have been the result of a war and the drive to prevail over other peoples. I don't see why this shouldn't be different elsewhere. Everything is conflict, without conflict nothing can exist. The conflict between light and dark, between vacuum and matter. Even evolution itself is a conflict of the ages.
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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by a_canadian » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:44 pm

While conflict is certainly an integral aspect of evolution, the sorts of generalizations you're making otherwise do not follow the same logic. Light is in conflict with darkness? How? One is a presence of a manifestation of energy, the other an absence of that manifestation. Are they at war with each other? Only if you're using them as metaphors, as in Christian mythology and the like. Light versus darkness is a human created anthropomorphic rendering of reality having nothing whatsoever to do with that reality absent human conversation. Since most of the universe doesn't have humans in it to project their whimsical mythologies the concept of light vs. darkness becomes absurd outside our Earth. Same for vacuum vs. matter, same logic applies. One is just the absence of the other. No conflict.

The conflicts you're projecting are emotion-based. The only 'conflict' operating on the grand scale has to do with entropy. Everything is progressing towards whatever ultimate state where matter is most stable, at least momentarily (prior to the next cycle of expansion and collapse - if that's what is and has been happening to the universe, for which there is growing evidence), so one can say that there is a universal conflict between one state and the next. We can try to delay entropy, but every effort expends energy and so only temporarily offsets the conversion of states using whatever energy source we've applied. A painting can be preserved against the ravages of photon bombardment and oxidation, but only by increasing energy consumption from other sources to run the devices used in atmosphere control, the resources used in the production of those devices, the energy used by the workers involved in the process etc. So it can be said that we are the victims of entropy, but since all matter is subject to this same trend (can't really call entropy a force) it's a bit of a stretch to call it conflict, as compared to predator/prey relationships at least.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by Gyrkin » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:49 pm

An ant is in danger from an elephant and will survive longer if it steers clear of it. It doesn't matter if the elephant is a predator or warlike. It doesn't matter if the elephant even knows the ant exists.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by a_canadian » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:54 pm

Exactly. The elephant is increasing entropy, as is the ant, by their very existence and consumption of food and air. And if the elephant has lots of food it won't wander very far, decreasing the likelihood of crushing the ant unless the ant chooses to live beneath its feet. No conflict, only events and circumstances.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:42 pm

a_canadian wrote:
whiterussian1974 wrote:Steven Hawking PhD claims that Poiki is right. That Predators have Evolutionary advantages that make them most likely to be capable of Interstellar Spaceflight and Territorial Expansion.
Just another reason I wish people would stop quoting Hawking on anything outside his field of expertise. (which I doubt - sort of seems likely you're mis-applying a quote)

Such a structure implies a collectivist approach to civilisation. A mega-project built for the common good.
You edited out my good parts.

Please read everything which I wrote AFTER the section which you replicated. I agreed w YOU!

And stated why I believe that a Hive Mind would be best for such a Project. I itemized the list! :roll:

While the initial effort would use local resources, the End Goal is less clear. Maybe it's a method of HyperJumping to other Galaxies/Systems. Maybe they are generating/destroying Multiverses. We just can't know what their research has enabled them to accomplish.

The 'New Jerusalem'? YHVH's "Heavenly Host?" A Universal "Noah's Ark" filled with strange lifeforms such as gaseous whales drifting as dirigibles swallowing Hydrogen compounds (and storing "DNA crystals") Promethean-style?
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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by a_canadian » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:00 pm

I read it, and don't disagree that a 'hive mind' is one possibility in such a venture, though I'd suggest it would be possible for a species like us given sufficient socialised maturity. Give us another few thousand years perhaps. Our tech is far ahead of our unstable emotional lives.

What I disagreed with was the suggestion that Hawking's thoughts on the matter are relevant. Further, if Hawking did in fact suggest that there might be some connection with predatory species, I can't see the rationale. Predators don't generally build vast agricultural platforms. A technologically advanced predator wouldn't need billions of square miles of land, they'd hunt elsewhere. Like pirates. A tiny home base would suffice. But again, I doubt Hawking is relevant in this exercise of the imagination - which of course is what it is; there is not likely to be a Dyson sphere around the star in question. Perhaps a neutron star in slow binary orbit with a normal bright star, shading it out periodically? Perhaps an immature system in which an asymmetrical cloud of debris is orbiting, or a planet in that system has been smashed recently resulting in such a cloud? Our solar system has seen planet-smashing events, so this seems a plausible explanation for the episodes of dimming.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:03 pm

a_canadian wrote:Exactly. The elephant is increasing entropy, as is the ant, by their very existence and consumption of food and air. And if the elephant has lots of food it won't wander very far, decreasing the likelihood of crushing the ant unless the ant chooses to live beneath its feet. No conflict, only events and circumstances.
Gyrkin was stating how Large Organisms like Cultures/Nation-States tend to consume without regard to smaller organisms/dissenters. Like a Black Hole swallowing stellar systems. They don't care about consciousness. They just with to feed of Resources.

Like how the Borg incorporate equivalent Cultures, but eliminate 'lessor' Cultures. They don't want 'polluted' by weaker/less efficient Systems. Unlike the Federation which seeks Diversity and networking to weave together an interdependent fabric that depends upon varying Properties to survive divergent situations. The Borg is like Chain Mail composed of the strongest/lightest/best materials each attached to their neighbor, yet capable of functioning autonomously when separated.
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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:06 pm

a_canadian: Ref Predatory Species:
whiterussian1974 wrote:While the initial effort would use local resources, the End Goal is less clear. Maybe it's a method of HyperJumping to other Galaxies/Systems. Maybe they are generating/destroying Multiverses. We just can't know what their research has enabled them to accomplish.
So exactly the Somali Pirate scenario. Or Klingon/Viking/Arab Raider.

But this is only 1 scenario which I/you/we posit. There are several possibilities, as you mentioned.

Maybe it's a Noah's Ark or 'Iceland Seed Bank' for surviving the 'Entropic Big Chill.'
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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by a_canadian » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:21 pm

Food for a lot of fantasies to be sure. I can just imagine a lot of SF writers rubbing their hands together when they see a news article such as this.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:33 pm

a_canadian wrote:Food for a lot of fantasies to be sure. I can just imagine a lot of SF writers rubbing their hands together when they see a news article such as this.
Gosh darn it! Why are you compelled to be so contemplative, reasonable, humble, generous, understanding, and even-handed?

We can't generate a good vitriolic argument when we're both so intellectually nimble. Willing to consider another's perspective; and occasionally even give deference to the other.

It must be the Canadian Environment. You tend to be so polite. It's a good thing that you've got an errant Southern Neighbor to make your blood boil at times. :wink: :lol:
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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by a_canadian » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:40 pm

Southern? I thought you were Russian? 8)

I'm getting bored of the political nonsense is all. Seems people are determined to stick to old, destructive ways, and no amount of reasoning seems to make a dent. Same here as in the Trump thread on NFAtalk. Persisting in rational arguments results in my being trolled by what seem to be a bunch of 12 year olds. So I'll shrug, at that and at this silly attempt to demonize a shadow on a star, and move on. The whole polite Canadian meme has kind of run its course though, hasn't it? We're really not. Just not as rude as Americans, so by contrast we seem polite. Drivers here are s--t, too. Which is part of why I don't drive.

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Re: So if we find a Dyson sphere...

Post by whiterussian1974 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:50 pm

a_canadian wrote:Southern? I thought you were Russian? 8)
Once one gets to the Top-of-the-World, everything seems Southward.

I meant those filthy Amis. :lol: Not your Great Western Neighbor (to the East? Or Eastern Neighbor to the West?) :P
a_canadian wrote:The whole polite Canadian meme has kind of run its course though, hasn't it? We're really not. Just not as rude as Americans, so by contrast we seem polite.
I was mainly using you as an Object Lesson for Others. :wink:

But come on! Let's demonize a star. After all, we project onto Others what we see in ourselves.
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