Latest antigun strategy, animal cruelty lose guns

[johndoe3]

http://www.guns.com/2017/11/15/illinois ... ning-guns/

Ever inventive in coming up with new ways to "take away the guns", Illinois legislators have proposed that anyone guilty of animal cruelty should lose their RKBA in IL.

If you're an animal lover, you might agree with the premise (without thinking about how it is the camel's nose under the tent).

For example, PETA people might charge a person with animal cruelty for eating meat more than twice a week. You could lose your gun rights in IL for life (or at least until you fought it in court and won).

Or...you're out walking with your small children and a dog runs up barking angrily at your children and you slap/kick the dog to send it running. It may be that someone sees this and you get charged with animal cruelty (the pictures don't lie ). The result, lose your gun rights in IL for life.

This proposed Illinois law is dangerous to gun owners rights.

[a_canadian]

Granted we need better systems of justice such that everyone gets a fair hearing. But in true cases of proven cruelty to any creature, human ape or non-human, I don't see the problem. How about we go further and take away gun rights for convicted child rapists? Rapists generally? Are you against that too? Damn, boy, you've got some serious introspection to get done.

For starters, how about backing off on the disinformation campaign about PETA? Where exactly is this PETA-sponsored law saying meat eaters are criminals? Listening to Alex Jones a lot, are we? PETA members are by and large a bunch of butthurt asshats shoving their religion down everyone else's throats. And this is a 40 years plus vegetarian talking, but not one who goes around telling other people what not to eat. I'm happy with what avoiding meat has done for me; I'm fit, healthy enough that I haven't even had a doctor in 25 years and before that only for trivial injuries in sports, and have long appreciated the reduced risk of various cancers my choice has given me. But it's my choice. Same as some other idiot's choice to live by the bible or the gun or the car or whatever the hell he wants to do, so long as it doesn't directly interfere with my life. Someone comes along and interferes with me or my family, they're going down, plain and simple. And if I go into their yard and harm their pet modified wolf or domesticated songbird killer, I fully expect to be dealt with by the law. I don't mess with them and don't expect them to mess with me. Live and let live. So PETA and bible thumping preachers can go to hell, just don't talk to me about it as I ain't interested. But yeah, someone goes around hurting dumb animals, I hope they pay a price.

[T-Rex]

How about we go further and take away gun rights for convicted child rapists? Rapists generally?

Already done. No guns for convicted felons.

I don't understand the PETA reference either. Since when did they start writing/enforcing laws?
Do be honest, not that I agree with gun ownership limitations, but it's proven that people who physically abuse animals will do it to humans, and generally w/ no remorse. Not exactly the type of responsible gun owner I've envisioned next to me at the range.

[a_canadian]

Yup, it's been borne out again and again. Damaged freakshow excuses for human beings start off with breaking flamingo's necks with a 3 iron at the zoo, cutting cats in half with a cheap katana, throwing puppies in the river... All things that have been documented in my region in the past decade. Then they escalate to kids or the elderly or the handicapped. Setting fire to bums in alleyways while they sleep. Murdering their grandparents. Killing classmates. Then they go for stronger quarry if still left running wild. If not stopped and treated for years, they always escalate. Same as rapists.

[doubloon]

... Illinois legislators have proposed that anyone guilty of animal cruelty should lose their RKBA in IL.
...

This is excellent news if it applies to pet killing cops as well.

[fishman]

It comes down to what constitutes animal abuse. A guy who tortures cats for fun in his basement? Yeah take his guns. Dumb teens getting ticketed for throwing rocks at ducks in a park pond, do they deserve to have their gun rights stripped, no.

Imo, if someone is convicted of serious animal abuse they SHOULD be adjudicated as mental, and therefore be prohibited person. AFAIK That's not how it currently works though.

As for rapists, the bar to get on the sex offenders list is too low. I feel bad for people who urinate publicly and get on it. That person also doesn't deserve to have their rights revoked. You have to be careful when making blanket statements about who can't own a gun. Even many felons dont deserve to have their gun rights taken imo. Something like tax fraud is serious and needs to be punished, but the guy doesn't have the right to defend himself once he's out of prison?

[whiterussian1974]

What is IL's Statute on Cruelty?

In TX it's fairly clear cut, and requires EXTREME Abuse or Neglect.
a-Horse Tripping
b-confined w no water or space to defecate, and no food for SEVERAL days. Like 30.
c-setting them on Fire or INITIATING beating them. Like if they are on a short chain and one goes up and starts kicking it.
d-a recent Law makes it a Felony to kill Domestic Pets. There are Exemptions that are clearly defined. Like if they are tearing up your flowers, crops, buildings, equipment, etc.

"Cruelty" in legal terms, would change from state to state. Remember, just b/c the Law uses English words, they DON'T have Standard English meanings. Statutes ALWAYS have a Definition Section. And Case Law further clarifies the Meaning of the Statute Components.

PS: I also agree that non-Felon Crimes shouldn't result in loss of Gun Rights. Like Fisherman, I feel that even some Felons should retain their Rights upon Release. Why is there a Class Action removing Rights from certain Classes of Citizens. It reminds me of the laws where former Slaves weren't allowed Gun and Defense Rights. This should be a 13th Amendment Issue for the SCOTUS.

[BobbyJohn]

Interesting topic going on here.

One thing however, PETA does not charge anybody with anything, they are not a legal entity to charge or judge.

That said, they do however sway legislation that is used to create laws, that are then used by the legal entities who have that authority, just as Mothers Against Drunk Driving, Mom's Against Gun Violence, and great many other organizations in this country that participate in the lobbying efforts for what they want.

On the Gun side, we have the NRA, GOA, and many other organizations that lobby in the pro gun arena.

Now the reality is, some laws that prohibit gun ownership are a bit screwed up and they do go against the constitution, what I consider animal cruelty and what another considers animal cruelty may very well be quite different, but I live in a very rural community, where most animals are working animals, I don't often agree with what I see in cities and how pets are treated, but that does not mean it is cruelty because I disagree.

One of the biggest problems now a days is the "feels good" movement has taken this and many other things that can prevent gun ownership to an extreme, there is no middle of the road on many of these issues, it is either win or loose.

[whiterussian1974]

Any Private Citizen CAN charge a Natural Person or "Fictitious Entity" w any Crime, Dispute, Slight, Insult, etc.

The State FILES the OFFICIAL COMPLAINT against the Respondent/Defendant. Or the Private Citizen can files charges that a MAGISTRATE must "consider."

PETA could use a Private Attorney General if they wished. They could sue and demand Damages and Penalties from the Respondent. They could also file Criminal Charges and have a Jury/Judge send him to Prison.

It would be nice if we could get a Gag Order preventing the Extremists' Free Speech.

[BobbyJohn]

Yes,

Any entity can charge and sue in civil court for damages, but civil actions do not result in loss of gun rights or the rights to own guns.

You have to convince a legal authority to press actual formal charges before criminal penalties can be imposed, such as taking the right to gun ownership away and normally that requires a felony or a lesser crime that can result in a sentence over a certain amount of time.

One area I feel the laws get real edgy is the domestic violence or the protection orders, although I sure don't agree that people should be able to harm or abuse others, often times states say you can't own a gun because you have a protection order sworn out against you(pretty common in divorce these days)

You can be accused of something, you can be charged with something or you can be legally charged with a crime. It should be a legal charge before you experience a loss of a right. Many charges of animal cruelty are lesser charges that do not expose you to the terms of 1 year or more and again, I am an animal lover have owned many dogs, cats, horse, goats, cows, etc. But the action should not always equate the loss of a constitutional right.

PETA has accused many people and organizations with cruelty to animals, while at the same time, it has been proven many of their actions have actually been cruel to the very animals they are trying to save. Same as the Human Society of America, they use their position in the media to make many accusations all the while committing the same types of acts.

Limiting speech, now that is a whole different can of worms to open!

[whiterussian1974]

A private prosecution is a criminal proceeding initiated by an individual or private organisation (such as a prosecution association) instead of by a public prosecutor who represents the state. Private prosecutions are allowed in many jurisdictions under common law, but have become less frequent in modern times as most prosecutions are now handled by professional public prosecutors instead of private individuals who retain (or are themselves) barristers.

Private Citizens (and now Illegals) CAN file Formal Criminal Charges. I'm a Deputy in Houston TX. I've seen PLENTY of Security Co's deliver Prisoners to the Jail and they have 72hrs to formalize the Charges with the District Judge, or DA's Office.

It DOES happen. Even as a Home Owner I once arrested and charged someone for 18k$ of vandalism to my home. They got 2yrs in prison. But the DA accepted my charge and carried it through the District Judge's Office. The Defendant pled out for a lesser sentence. They were facing 10-20yrs due to the Aggregated Damages.

[BobbyJohn]

A private prosecution is a criminal proceeding initiated by an individual or private organisation (such as a prosecution association) instead of by a public prosecutor who represents the state. Private prosecutions are allowed in many jurisdictions under common law, but have become less frequent in modern times as most prosecutions are now handled by professional public prosecutors instead of private individuals who retain (or are themselves) barristers.

Private Citizens (and now Illegals) CAN file Formal Criminal Charges. I'm a Deputy in Houston TX. I've seen PLENTY of Security Co's deliver Prisoners to the Jail and they have 72hrs to formalize the Charges with the District Judge, or DA's Office.

It DOES happen. Even as a Home Owner I once arrested and charged someone for 18k$ of vandalism to my home. They got 2yrs in prison. But the DA accepted my charge and carried it through the District Judge's Office. The Defendant pled out for a lesser sentence. They were facing 10-20yrs due to the Aggregated Damages.

Oh,

I agree with you, it does happen, you as a deputy, carry a little bit of force when you bring charges, I can call the police/sheriff in my area about a crime, most of the time it is wildlife violations and it will carry the weight of law and formal charges will be entered. Your key is, that you are a deputy sworn to uphold the law as is the DA so he/she puts a certain amount of faith when you make a statement. For the normal joe, we don't see that happen as much.

We all have certain abilities, I however think that PETA or the Humane Society of America trying to charge crimes would set a bad precedence with what is legal, what is charged and what is adjudicated.

They are a recognized extremist group as many others are and just by that definition many consider their words to be less than 100% truthful so they can attain their professed goals.

[whiterussian1974]

I totally agree.

One could sue PETA for Malicious Prosecution or any of several other Torts if they stick their noses out to far. If the Arrest is unlawful, that is a Criminal Charge. So be VERY careful when affecting an Arrest.

The problem w the Extremist (Terrorist) Groups is that they are Frauds. They are the Definition of RICO. The Gov't wants to give their Buddies $$$. So they have them form 501a,501c3s-4s and sue the Gov't. The gov't doesn't contest the Charges, they just Settle. This is Money Laundering. It's giving $ to Groups and People whom Congress hasn't authorized.

Eco Groups don't plant trees, they sue. That's it. Just RICO racketeering taking $ under the Table from their Gov't Cronies.

[hardcase]

So where would hunters be in all this, especially AKA Bambi killers?

I was a healthcare practitioner in St Pete, FL for a time. There was a group of PETA wanna-be people there. St Pete had a major infestation of this cross-breed duck between meganzers and white ducks that were proliferate breeders and pooped all over the hospital's ground. To keep the masses happy the city hire a group of trappers who turned the ducks loose in a lake infested with alligators. Problem solved as most had no idea they were alligator food.

You can live a healthy life by being a vegan though it takes working on your diet. Most still eat animal by products or take non-FDA approved supplements. In the USA, OTC meds don't meet the same "safe and effective" standards that prescription meds do. I would say life style and body mass index are more important, or fat, sedate people.

[whiterussian1974]

If the State issues a License, that is tacit approval. So no "cruelty" unless you use a non-approved method. Bear-traps, deadfalls, or Punji pits for deer, etc.

Poachers might be screwed. But if a deer is eating my garden, I can kill him in TX. That's an Exemption in the Law. But if I have a deer feeder on my Property, garden or no, i'm screwed. LOL