Lefty realizes he has no "man card"

[whiterussian1974]

I dearly love this Thread. So many Strong and well-founded Opinions!

Wow, you're even stooping to homophobic rhetoric in your vain efforts at defending an indefensible position. Drawing on a drawn gun, in a crowd, to defend a trivial piece of property, almost invariably leads to the victim becoming the injured or the dead victim.

Homophobic? How do you get homophobic out of that?

What happens if my iDaughter is there next time and they decide to have a little fun instead of my iPhone? What should i say as she is dragged into a dark alley as witnesses stand there like sheep?

"Honey.... just give them what they want! If you don't they might also want your iPhone!"

When did the iDaughter go to Market? Are they purchased or leased for 18yrs? LOL
But seriously, you're right. The phone was all that they wanted THIS time. If he was a Hillary supporter going to speak w the FBI, he may have shot himself a few times in the back of the head. Not a fun morning jog...

I agree that this pansy (I don't care about his choice of underwear. If panties make him feel empowered, good for him!) SHOULDN'T try to switch from Perpetual Victim to self-responsibility and self-ownership overnight. He isn't prepared to make the hard Decisions.

Would I wait to draw until they shoved their pistol in my ribs? No. I would take cover and draw BEFORE they got w/i Range. IF that means crossing the Street to avoid them like Obummer berated his Grandmother for doing, so be it. I would watch their gaze and gait to determine if they were Neutral or Hostile. If they gave menacing looks and drew a pistol, I'd shoot through my jacket pocket if needed. No point in giving THEM any extra warning...

[ick]

On the other hand, a lot of such violent or threatening encounters happen so fast, that one may not have sufficient time to apply reasoning or logic to it, and react in a way that attempts to resolve the situation with intellectual reasoning.. If for instance pain is the first thing you encounter, then only very deeply embedded training with muscular memory will help you react in a way that helps resolve the situation to your advantage .. I have experienced this, and the self-defense training did help..

"Everybody has a plan 'til they get punched in the mouth."
~ Famous wise philosopher with a deep voice and high moral standards

[jlwilliams]

Here we go. Manly men saying manly things, making their mothers proud. And yet I see no one addressing the question; do you draw on a gun pointed at you to protect your cellular phone?....

OK, I'll address that.

When someone demands property under threat of violence, the victim's life is on the line. "Give me your phone and your cash..." is just the opener. What right or reason does one have to believe that the property is all the attacker wants? What social contract guarantees that surrender will in fact be rewarded with de escalation of hostility? None. If you surrender to someone so ruthless that they would use a gun to take a phone you are putting yourself at the mercy of the merciless. Give that inch, and the next mile will be demanded. Robbery is often a "gut check" that is used to see how easily a victim accepts victimhood. Give up your ____ and a car ride to the atm is a logical next step. Give up your property and you are well on your way to what the police refer to as "crime scene #2" which is where the rape and murder happen.

So, yes. When confronted by armed predators demanding your property you DO NOT surrender. You fight. You fight with your gun or your bare hands but you DO NOT SURRENDER.

[a_canadian]

Interpreting your 'answer' in which you somewhat wordily fail to directly answer the question which you quoted, it seems you are saying that drawing on a drawn weapon is always a priority. Getting yourself shot by some thief with his finger on the trigger beats 'surrendering your man card' any day of the week. Is that about right? No room for equivocation, nor even a thought process really, rather your definition of freedom requires, or even demands, that if you die for your property then so be it, at least you stood up for what's right.

Seems to me a rather grotesque devaluation of your own life... but then again, if you don't value your own life, why should I? So yeah, go ahead and do that next time some creep points a gun at your ribs. If you don't think the creep pulling the trigger is such a bad thing compared to you sacrificing your rights, perhaps you'll be making the world a better place. Perhaps even making your family happier at the same time, as they'll take comfort in the knowledge that you were a hero representing your god-given rights. And you can be sure (in your grave at least, for whatever that's worth) that the bad guy will learn his lesson and stop robbing folks... right?

[jlwilliams]

OK, I get it. You don't actually have dialogues, you pontificate. Rather than engage what I said about not giving up, you assign to me a position of having advocated some theory of rights or whatever you meant by that nonsense, and you engage that invented point. Badly I might add.

You asked if one should "draw on a gun pointed at you to protect your cell phone" (your words, emphasis added by me) and I answered that in your case in point; one wouldn't be protecting one's phone. One would be fighting for life itself.

That you spin that into my "definition of freedom requires, or even demands, that if you die for your property then so be it, at least you stood up for what's right...." speaks volumes.

Your question was flawed. I apologize for trying to address it directly. I don't come here often and I sometimes forget who the trolls are. My bad.

Enjoy dueling your straw men.

[DKDravis]

As I tried to say earlier in this thread -- It's NOT about "defending your iPhone" (or other material expressions of ones wealth!) its about defending yourself from physical and mental harm, from someone willing to risk his or her life and health by threatening You with extreme violence or death (I think we can safely make the assumption that pointing a gun at someone constitutes threatening you with deadly violence ) When someone makes that decision, that person has forfeited any "rights" IMHO .. So any decision you make from that point on should not include ANY consideration for this persons continued health or "rights" - If he gets harmed or dies in the ensuing violence, that is sad, regrettable and perhaps a tragedy for his loved ones, but should NOT be a concern for you, and certainly not IN the situation.. That you will feel bad afterwards is just a natural consequence of being a normal human being. There are ways of getting through that.
There is NO way you can simplify a robbery at gunpoint to a simple question of "defending your property" - for most normal people (leftist panty-wearers or right-wing macho-men included) it will be a harrowing experience, that it will take time to get over, especially if you take on the role of "victim" and do nothing to assert yourself or influence the situation.

Lokks like I'll just continue the "pontificating" trend here ..

The current increase in the US of "Stand your ground" legislation and the increase in CCW states seems a very reactionary trend in a modern society, seen from a European point of view. The changes in the "political climate" is also felt even in European countries that US citizens regard as "leftist" countries .. I constantly hear and read of people in the US that seem to live in the misunderstanding that my country is "communist" or "Socialist" -- Nothing could be further from the truth, The country has been run for the last 10+ years by conservative/right wing-liberal coalition governments .. Before that it was a "Social-democratic" middle of the spectrum government -- all with tight ties to capitalist interests ... Economic thinking dominates every single political decision..
(This so-called "Socialist government" sold most of the National Energy company to Goldman-Sachs .. go figure!!)

Politics and statistics may be the background reasons that you have a society that breeds "scumbags" and "predators" - but what you actually face on the streets can not be dealt with according to your political point of view, unless you have the wealth to move away from the affected areas, and not have to set foot there. That leads to the "leftist" belief that the problems do not really need to be dealt with by someone, or the belief that "the police will handle this, ordinary citizens need not concern themselves" AND it leads to the "rightist" belief that the problem is solely based on some people being "Evil Predators" or "lowlifes" and that extreme differences in wealth has nothing to do with it.

The realitiy is that you do run the risk of getting held up at gunpoint, in some places the risk is high, in others so low as to be insignificant (in which case, carrying a gun is just like insisting to bring your own parachute on commercial flights, you will very likely NEVER need it, and it will then be of very little help.)

Fortunately I have never been held up at gunpoint, a nasty looking "rambo" type blade was the worst "threat instrument" I have encountered Even a long knife has a fairly short reach, so quickly putting a bit of distance to it, effectively removes any real danger, or fear for ones life.. Not so with a gun! The look of confusion on the face of the guy with the big knife, when you look back at him from 15 feet away is very satisfying.. A simple release move and a dodge away changes that situation completely .. Again: Not so when facing a gun... The risk of being seriously harmed or even killed is just too big .. The likelihood that the scumbag actually fires the gun increases exponentially with the steps you take to try to disarm him or remove yourself out of harms way. Complying with his demands in a carefully controlled manner diminishes the risk, and increases your chances of resolving the situation, even if you choose a violent response! Confusion is an exellent strategy: start babbling incohrently, preferably in a foreign language (Not a lot of UK scumbags understand a single word of danish ) Then get your wallet out, and start fumbling with it to get some cash out.. and once you have one or two bills out, drop the wallet on the ground, or stuff it in a different pocket from where you took it.. Now the scumbag thinks you're scared shitless, and he relaxes his handling of his weapon.. increasing your chances of getting out unharmed, and the simple fact that you are consciously ACTING scared, boosts your own morale, and makes you feel much better afterwards.. It actually works, I've done it more than once... You feel much more in control of the situation, not helpless and vulnerable. By all means let the guy have your iPhone .. its a perfect tracking device, try to activate the camera as soon as you can .. It will record sound as well as images that may be very usefull later

[poikilotrm]

Fortunately I have never been held up at gunpoint, a nasty looking "rambo" type blade was the worst "threat instrument" I have encountered Even a long knife has a fairly short reach, so quickly putting a bit of distance to it, effectively removes any real danger, or fear for ones life.. Not so with a gun! The look of confusion on the face of the guy with the big knife, when you look back at him from 15 feet away is very satisfying.. A simple release move and a dodge away changes that situation completely ..

Let me know if you ever come to the US. I'll drop you off in a place called Oakland, CA. You can take a 20 minute walk through there. We'll see how your athletic abilities stack up.

[a_canadian]

My brother lived in Oakland for a few years while working nearby, never got robbed once. Neither did his wife. Nor their little boy. Weird. Didn't like the place much but it kept his commute short.

[poikilotrm]

Really? Gosh. I bet you were in the hills. Because you damned sure weren’t in the areas the cops are forbidden to enter.

[a_canadian]

Not me, my brother. I don't know exactly which part, never managed a visit during that time. Probably not in an especially difficult area, no.

[DKDravis]

@poiki ..

I lived for 4 years in the worst area of Manchester, England, an area called "Moss Side" -- Apart from the number of guns among the "scumbags" I sincerely doubt that Oakland CA, would be much worse .. Even if it is, a proper "situational awarenes" will compensate for this, local knowledge and experience goes a long way..

"Athletic abilities" has little or nothing to do with "surviving" street violence or muggings, but of course some level of basic fitness helps, making it more likely that you can outrun an attacker
Contrary to what we see in the movies, not very many "scumbags" are very fit, most of the street muggers I have encountered were sorry-a$$ looking individuals, probably more or less constantly under the influence of drinks and drugs.
I know from experience that their reaction times are painfully slow.. each and every one I've met..

I know quite af few people in the US (And I have family and friends in the US) They represent almost every walk of life, and live in very different areas of the US. Their story is the one I listen to. They all speak of a country with enormous diversity, from extreme poverty to extreme wealth.. but one thing in common: A level of paranoia and distrust that seems out of all proportion to reality.

I have family in rural Idaho, that in spite of almost 90 years of absolutely no instances of violent crime in their immediate area, still feel the need to arm themselves, and put up "No trespassing" signs on the borders of their land.. and talk of setting boobytraps in their buildings when away on holiday -wtf???

I have friends in Arkansas, that have CCW's and carry 24/7 in spite of never actually having had a single attempt at mugging or ever witnessed a violent crime - wtf?

I know someone living in Canada, that have a house full of hunting weapons, yet they never lock their doors, unless they are away for hours. They have lived there for a lifetime (60+ years) and they have seen violent crime more than once in their area, but have never felt the need to arm themselves with "self defense guns" -

Seems to me that a big part of the "problem" is in the attitude? and in the perception of danger?

[fishman]

I know several people that own fire extinguishers that have never even been in a house fire. Wtf???

I know people that carry epi pens that haven't ever had a life threatening allergic attack. Wtf???

I know people who hunt wearing safety harnesses that have never fallen out of a tree before. Wtf???

Dk, Being prepared for something unlikely is foolish?



I know people who have been mugged. I know a woman who has been raped. I know people who have been shot at. Even though I'll go through life with a 99% + chance of never encountering these things, why is it foolish to prepare for them?

[DKDravis]

@fishman ...

A fire in your house is so much more likely than a home invasion in rural Idaho, that it makes the argument completely pointless...

An attack by wasps or bees bringing on an anaphylactic shock is also vastly more probable than having to use a CCW gun in self-defense, and if you are in a remote location, the epi-pen is your only chance of survival.. Another case of poor awareness of probability computation ...

A safety harness while hunting from tree-stands, is just as much "common sense" as wearing a seat-belt while driving (or a helmet and protective gear while riding your motorbike.. Again the probabilities of an injury is orders of magnitude higher...

Find and read this book: "Reckoning with Risk" by Gerd Gigerenzer -- try to understand probability computation and apply it to your life -- it will change your perspective!

If you spend 2 years constantly flying commercial airlines, you still have a 1000 times lower probability of death, than spending 2 weeks in your car driving! - Thats a FACT ... not speculation .. just a fact!

Or how about this: Winning the lottery is the same probability as dumping 51 coins in a bucket, shaking it thoroughly, and then dumping all the coins on the floor- and finding ALL 51 coins showing the same side up! -- Heads or Tails anyone
So .. lottery is just a nice way of making money from people who do not understand probability calculations ..
Go ahead .. buy your lottery ticket -- prove me wrong ..

[fishman]

I understand risk reward analysis and statistics very well. Keeping a loaded gun in my truck costs me very very little.

Put a dollar amount on my life and then multiply it by the probability of my gun saving my life minus the probability of it costing me my life. Let me know what the dollar amount is, if it costs more than a cpl class and a box of ammo then I'll concede to your point.

[jlwilliams]

I keep a fire extinguisher in my vehicle and carry a handgun. I must be some sort of a raving paranoid maniac.

[doubloon]

I keep a fire extinguisher in my vehicle and carry a handgun. I must be some sort of a raving paranoid maniac.

Maybe not as paranoid as this guy, I was thinking about getting a couple of these for around the garage/shop.

[DKDravis]

As a friend of mine said once: "Being paranoid does not mean that nobody is out to get you!" What you are doing when you buy lotto-tickets or carry a gun in an otherwise peacefull environment, is reacting to "feelings" and "sentiments" rather than reason and knowledge --

I have nothing against well balanced individuals carrying a firearm for protection, but as I said earlier in this thread, I'm not convinced that it will "save my bacon" any better than other much less problematic strategies. Any of you guys carrying ever have a "temper tantrum" or "fly off the handle" -- Anyone consider the consequences if that gun you carry inflates your ego enough to make you think you're "invincible" in a BAD situation.. Do you TRUST your own abilities to NOT end up as the bad guy? The one shooting and killing someone, because you "lost it" and stopped being reasonable?

Believe me, I'm all for "carrying a big stick" but you need very much to learn to "walk softly" first ..

I used to keep a fire-extinguisher in my car, wehicle fires are not uncommon .. I emptied mine along with the ones of several other motorists trying to put out a car on fire on the motorway a few years back ... we might as well have ganged up and given it a golden shower .. Unless you carry a really BIG one, or have a nice little engine fire, the "cans" most people carry in their cars are just to puny ..

Proper 6 -10 Kg powder extinguishers are not usually the thing you carry in a car, unless "car" is your "kitted out" 4x4 "prepper truck"
Mine is now in my workshop, where the probability of needing it, AND of it being effective is within the range of "Common Sense"
Last time I used it was when I got careless with Titanium swarf

BTW:
Is that little round red thing beside the engine supposed to "kill" an engine fire in a fuel injected 5 litre V8 ..-- Well maybe it works.. "Insurance" it ain't --
(Maybe I speak out of ignorance here, --- exactly what IS that round thing?)

[doubloon]

...
BTW:
Is that little round red thing beside the engine supposed to "kill" an engine fire in a fuel injected 5 litre V8 ..-- Well maybe it works.. "Insurance" it ain't --
(Maybe I speak out of ignorance here, --- exactly what IS that round thing?)

I fire extinguisher of sorts videos below



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyGjUnJKbZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCRJSJPYy2A

[DKDravis]

Ahhh... OK! So a couple of kilograms of compressed fire-extinguisher powder and some kind of explosive cord..

In an enclosed space like the engine compartment of a car, that would probably work, but you will need a new hood afterwards And you will have some cleaning to do ...

[doubloon]

Yep, in one of the videos it gets taken apart, plastic covering a fuse wrapped around a styrofoam shell filled with extinguisher powder and a black powder charge in the center.

Placed in key locations where fires are likely to break out or near stuff where you might want an added measure of fire dampening it might be useful. Might not replace the fire department but maybe could buy an extra minute or two for the gun safe or ammo stash waiting for them to arrive, maybe make that hallway a bearable egress.